Post Game Thead - The Our Best Defenseman Was a Teenager Edition

[DoktorZaius]

I think people are in fundamental agreement here, but are getting caught up on semantics. Crosby is extremely dangerous, and teams realize this, but they know that if they neutralize Crosby his linemates are worthless and can't produce on their own. OTOH, you can't give James Neal too much time and space even if they're dogged on Geno.

 

[KIRK]

Yeah, that list of bad Penguins players was definitely missing the guy who belongs right at the top.




I doubt this very very much, JTG. If our second line lights it up, how many more points would Malkin need to produce over Crosby for teams to game plan more for 71 rather than 87?

Reputations being what they are in the NHL, Crosby will always be the feared one. He's the engine that revs this team. Everybody knows it. Our coach doesn't exactly disguise it, either. Teams will prepare for us like they always do.

The answer is NONE.

Boston covered Sid with Bergeron and four meh's . . . Marchand (o'k defensively), Jagr (no comment), Ference, and Boychuk. Once upon a time, Sid would've eaten THAT for lunch.

Boston game planned for Geno, despite his having to play short handed pretty much the whole series (which was what he was doing with a guy who couldn't even take a pass on the LW). Krejci isn't Bergeron, but Krejci with Chara AND Seidenberg > Bergeron with Ference and Boychuk.

Heck, I'll take it one step further. Boston STARTED with Chara-Boychuk and Ference-Seidenberg. THAT lasted one period, where Geno was pretty much eating Boychuk alive.

So, Claude Julien was SO SCARED of the best line in hockey that he put Bergeron and not much else on it and all his other best guys, including his undisputed top two defenseman on the Geno 2/3 line.

It's not that the 'best line in hockey' was shut down by Boston. It's that they were shut down by Bergeron and a bunch of no names defensively.

I dunno... it was Malkin's line that (mostly) drew the tough matchups against Boston. Not Crosby's.

I would speculate further from there... but I don't want to get yelled at for being a bad fan, or something.

It wouldn't be speculation.

That's like saying 'who was Zetterberg on' and discounting Lidstrom. Chara being mostly on Malkin says a lot.

It is hardly as if Lucic Krejci Horton was a poor line either... leading the Bruins in points, and all playoff players in plus/minus.

Actually what says the MOST is that the pairings started as Chara-Boychuk and Ference-Seidenberg. Julien tried to 'balance' his pairings. It took ONE PERIOD for Julien to put Chara AND Seidenberg on Malkin, even though Krejci already was there AND he had Bylsma helping him shut down Malkin too by making him play with Iginla on the LW. It's really all there, black and white. It took ONE of Boston's top defensive players to shut down the best line in hockey.

 

[KIRK]

I disagree with the bolded. You know why that statement is incorrect and the cap has nothing to do with why Sid plays with Dupuis every single shift? you mentioned it yourself: Beau Bennett. He makes LESS than Dupuis, yet Bylsma chooses to play Dupuis ahead of him.

So while it's true that hoping for a $9 million Corey Perry might be out of cap reality, there are other cheap alternatives but the stubborn idiot behind the bench simply won't go with them. Instead, he wants his "best line in the league" together forever. Hell, Shero somehow found cap space to bring in Iginla last year, and we know how often Iginla/Crosby was a line under Bylsma.

Let's take this one step further. Sid's wingers make 7.5 million a year. You could have him out there with Bennett and a 6 million dollar winger.

I'll put it another way, when the playoffs come and the Pens get into a tight series against a tough defensive team, which winger duo do you trust to make some plays to help their center Kunitz-Dupuis OR Jokinen/Bennett-Neal?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Let's take this one step further. Sid's wingers make 7.5 million a year. You could have him out there with Bennett and a 6 million dollar winger.

I'll put it another way, when the playoffs come and the Pens get into a tight series against a tough defensive team, which winger duo do you trust to make some plays to help their center Kunitz-Dupuis OR Jokinen/Bennett-Neal?

Do I trust JJ and BB to make plays when the playoffs roll around? Maybe, but I'm not 100% sure they will help pick up Crosby when he needs it. But I think especially BB could. However, it it is faith based on seeing him play.

Do I trust Kunitz and Dupuis to make plays when the playoffs roll around? No. Because I've seen it happen time and again that they simply can't make elite level plays and carry Crosby.

Essentially it hasn't been proven a JJ or BB would or would not help Crosby come playoff time. But we do know For a fact Kunitz and Dupes can't carry Crosby over troubled (frozen) water.

If you want different results come playoff time, don't keep doing the same **** over and over and over.

 

[KIRK]

I'd like to add one thing to the whole 'team building' debate. The way you give Sid and Geno even more is to TRUST and PLAY the young defensemen.

I've been saying that I'd be perfectly happy to move Orpik and Niskanen and play Despres and Maatta, to wit many will say 'ZOMG, you can't do that'. BUT, that choice frees up almost 4 million dollars.

Are Maatta/Despres better than Nisky/Orpik? No. Are Maatta + Despres + 4 million in cap space allocated elsewhere (e.g., more weaponry for Sid/Geno) > Orpik + Nisky? In a word, yes, and it's not even close

Long story short, there's plenty of money to stack the **** out of the top nine, even with Sid and Geno provided (a) Ray Shero doesn't pay guys north of 2M to be non-descript (see Sutter, Brandon) and (b) the team plays the young guys and lets them learn on the job.

In THAT scenario, Shero's draft defensemen strategy makes perfect sense and then some.

BUT, at some point, the strategy became 'we need vets all over, so use the young guys as trade chips for the deadline'. IMO, that's a weaker short and long term strategy than the one articulated above.

 

[KIRK]

Do I trust JJ and BB to make plays when the playoffs roll around? Maybe, but I'm not 100% sure they will help pick up Crosby when he needs it. But I think especially BB could. However, it it is faith based on seeing him play.

Do I trust Kunitz and Dupuis to make plays when the playoffs roll around? No. Because I've seen it happen time and again that they simply can't make elite level plays and carry Crosby.

Essentially it hasn't been proven a JJ or BB would or would not help Crosby come playoff time. But we do know For a fact Kunitz and Dupes can't carry Crosby over troubled (frozen) water.

That's pretty much where I'm at. Even Neal is more likely to make a 1 on 1 play than Kunitz or Dupuis, and nobody is going to confuse him with a great playmaker.

It's just so sad to think that all Boston needed to shut down the best player in hockey was Bergeron and solid defensive positioning. THAT isn't an indictment of Sid. THAT is an indictment of having both Kunitz AND Dupuis on a line with Sid.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

BUT, at some point, the strategy became 'we need vets all over, so use the young guys as trade chips for the deadline'. IMO, that's a weaker short and long term strategy than the one articulated above.

Well yeah... players who barely get a sniff at the NHL level don't hold much value to other teams as trade chips. Unless they are understood stud prospects.

Couldn't agree more with the rest of that post, too. People freak out about fielding a defense that's too green. Why are we drafting the ever-living crap out of defensemen, then? If you can't get value from them via trade and you aren't willing to play them because you value experience too much (even when they look to be capable)... well... ???

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

That's pretty much where I'm at. Even Neal is more likely to make a 1 on 1 play than Kunitz or Dupuis, and nobody is going to confuse him with a great playmaker.

I don't know if BB or JJ are a solution and I readily admit that. I just know Kunitz and Dupes together is the first line equivalent of Adams and Glass.

The Earth won't spin off it axis if you try new line mates with Crosby. I promise.

I have often looked back on those early Pens dynasties and wondered if Lemieux took better care of himself, if Stevens didn't bounce his face off the ice... Would they have been an Oilers type dynasty?

I'm not quite there yet, but I have thought that one day I may look back on the Crosby years and think what a damn shame it was that Shero didn't build around him. There is, essentially, no light at the end of the tunnel.

There is hopefully a lot of time left, but those new extensions will keep these guys flanking Crosby for quite some time, barring injury or a significant drop in play, which who the hell knows how poorly they have to play to have DB demote them.

I think it is just the fact that DB, Dupes and Kunitz will be here for several more years, that is bringing out the frustrations in many of us.

 

[KIRK]

I don't know if BB or JJ are a solution and I readily admit that. I just know Kunitz and Dupes together is the first line equivalent of Adams and Glass.

The Earth won't spin off it axis if you try new line mates with Crosby. I promise.

I have often looked back on those early Pens dynasties and wondered if Lemieux took better care of himself, if Stevens didn't bounce his face off the ice... Would they have been an Oilers type dynasty?

I'm not quite there yet, but I have thought that one day I may look back on the Crosby years and think what a damn shame it was that Shero didn't build around him.

There is hopefully a lot of time left, but those new extensions will keep these guys flanking Crosby for quite some time, barring injury or a significant drop in play, which who the hell knows how poorly they have to play to have DB demote them.

You'll recall that some of us were arguing this 2-3 years ago. I remember it really being argued here before the Philly series, when people like me were saying with KMN killing it get Sid his Hossa again, just like 2008. Two legit good wingers each for Sid and Geno (complementary guys with the talent to make individual plays). Sid and Geno are the Pens advantage. Exploit it. Don't mitigate it to address other 'holes' that may not even be holes if you played all the young defensemen you drafted. You give Sid and Geno the tools, and they can overcome whatever disadvantage that play the young defensemen strategy creates (again, if it really even creates one).

 

[mpp9]

I don't know if BB or JJ are a solution and I readily admit that. I just know Kunitz and Dupes together is the first line equivalent of Adams and Glass.

The Earth won't spin off it axis if you try new line mates with Crosby. I promise.

I have often looked back on those early Pens dynasties and wondered if Lemieux took better care of himself, if Stevens didn't bounce his face off the ice... Would they have been an Oilers type dynasty?

I'm not quite there yet, but I have thought that one day I may look back on the Crosby years and think what a damn shame it was that Shero didn't build around him. There is, essentially, no light at the end of the tunnel.

There is hopefully a lot of time left, but those new extensions will keep these guys flanking Crosby for quite some time, barring injury or a significant drop in play, which who the hell knows how poorly they have to play to have DB demote them.

I think it is just the fact that DB, Dupes and Kunitz will be here for several more years, that is bringing out the frustrations in many of us.

It's just outrageous how many posters on here refuse to acknowledge Sid could use some help on his wing to get through the best teams in the playoffs.

I don't know how one can convince one's self that Dupuis is a skilled hockey player. I stopped drinking gin awhile ago, maybe I should start again.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You'll recall that some of us were arguing this 2-3 years ago. I remember it really being argued here before the Philly series, when people like me were saying with KMN killing it get Sid his Hossa again, just like 2008. Two legit good wingers each for Sid and Geno (complementary guys with the talent to make individual plays). Sid and Geno are the Pens advantage. Exploit it. Don't mitigate it to address other 'holes' that may not even be holes if you played all the young defensemen you drafted. You give Sid and Geno the tools, and they can overcome whatever disadvantage that play the young defensemen strategy creates (again, if it really even creates one).

I just try to stay positive and wait things out... Just my personality. You know my mantra was let's wait until the playoffs last season until we *****.

However, how many times do you have to see the same patterns repeat themselves before you stop being optimistic a coach like DB will change?

I dunno, like I said the extensions to all three are probably what has me seeing no light at the end of the tunnel. I'm not usually this negative, but damn the patterns are so obvious every season.