Speculation: Possible trade partners in a Boychuk LTIR trade

[mouser]

I do not agree, but I think we're just stuck on semantics. It's hard to define the ACSL without mentioning that teams accrue cap space. I guess you could alternatively mentally model it as saying you have a bank account of $81.5m and on any given day your daily caphit cannot exceed $<remaining account balance> / <days remaining in season>, in that sense you don't really have an accrual you just have an account balance that is either shrinking faster or slower. But that still doesn't touch on the notion of players becoming cheaper as the season progresses, because they still always cost $<their aav> / <number of days in season> per day, all throughout the season.

If you want to get into the technicalities. The key CBA term you’re looking for is Payroll Room.

Teams under the cap increase their Payroll Room every day and the cap hit of a player acquired mid-season is pro rated. The acquired players become “cheaper” cap-wise.

Teams using LTIR to be cap compliant have zero Payroll Room and the contracts of players acquired mid-season are not pro rated. The acquired players do not become “cheaper” cap-wise.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

If you want to get into the technicalities. The key CBA term you’re looking for is Payroll Room.

Teams under the cap increase their Payroll Room every day and the cap hit of a player acquired mid-season is pro rated.

Teams using LTIR to be cap compliant have zero Payroll Room and the contracts of players acquired mid-season are not pro rated.

hadnt heard that. Will research it, thanks!

 

[WJCJ]

If you want to get into the technicalities. The key CBA term you’re looking for is Payroll Room.

Teams under the cap increase their Payroll Room every day and the cap hit of a player acquired mid-season is pro rated. The acquired players become “cheaper” cap-wise.

Teams using LTIR to be cap compliant have zero Payroll Room and the contracts of players acquired mid-season are not pro rated. The acquired players do not become “cheaper” cap-wise.

i believe that not only would a team not accrue any cap space if they go over the cap because of having this contract, that since this contract does count against their cap, there is a huge potential that some bonuses will face bonus overage penalties and be taken off of the teams cap the following season in effect putting the team in cap hell for a season at least.

It seems to me that packaging JB’s contract with an asset and trading them to a rebuilding team that is far below the cap is probably the way a deal gets done. Stranger things have happened so we’ll see about that. The isles can just use the boychuck litr to add a great player at the deadline as long as they are able to stay even $1 under the cap until then. That also sounds like a pretty smart way to go.

 

[Carltons Cup]

This Hossa thing has always miffed me. If a person has skin allergies, wouldn't it be easy for a doctor (or virtually anyone) to verify i.e., just look at their skin? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that there would be procedures and that the NHLPA could challenge.

So, after some research, I found this (last paragraph is from the CBA).

The CBA details a set of procedures the league uses to determine if a team is trying to place a player who isn’t injured on IR, and since LTIR requires the player to be on IR, there’s no way to fake this. We saw examples of the NHL questioning the permanent assignment of players with vague conditions to LTIR in Joffrey Lupul and Marian Hossa.

But wait, it gets worse.

Understanding IR and LTIR for the capped-out Maple Leafs

(d) Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception to the Upper Limit. In the event that a Player on a Club becomes unfit to play (i.e., is injured, ill or disabled and unable to perform his duties as a hockey Player) such that the Club’s physician believes, in his or her opinion, that the Player, owing to either an injury or an illness, will be unfit to play for at least (i) twenty-four (24) calendar days and (ii) ten (10) NHL Regular Season games, and such Club desires to replace such Player, the Club may add an additional Player or Players to its Active Roster, and the replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of such additional Player(s) may increase the Club’s Averaged Club Salary to an amount up to and exceeding the Upper Limit, solely as, and to the extent and for the duration, set forth below. If, however, the League wishes to challenge the determination of a Club physician that a Player is unfit to play for purposes of the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception, the League and the NHLPA shall promptly confer and jointly select a neutral physician, who shall review the Club physician’s determination regarding the Player’s fitness to play.​

That is just crazy. There is a loophole for just about everything.

 

[mouser]

i believe that not only would a team not accrue any cap space if they go over the cap because of having this contract, that since this contract does count against their cap, there is a huge potential that some bonuses will face bonus overage penalties and be taken off of the teams cap the following season in effect putting the team in cap hell for a season at least.

It seems to me that packaging JB’s contract with an asset and trading them to a rebuilding team that is far below the cap is probably the way a deal gets done. Stranger things have happened so we’ll see about that. The isles can just use the boychuck litr to add a great player at the deadline as long as they are able to stay even $1 under the cap until then. That also sounds like a pretty smart way to go.

- The contract does count against every team's cap. LTIR allows teams to exceed the cap, it doesn't eliminate any cap hits.
- If a team is using LTIR to be cap compliant then every single earned performance bonus is carried to the next season's cap.
- There are no teams under the cap.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

That is just crazy. There is a loophole for just about everything.

That is often the case. However, as an fyi, the first couple of paragraphs were a copy and paste from an article, not something I created.

I do wonder if people understand the risk that doctors (and other professionals with professional licenses to practice their profession) take though when they falsify something. There are ethics requirements & malpractice lawsuits in play here that can result in the loss of a license. Those are often career ending types of events. As a professional engineer, I often had to complete ethics courses and training as part of my continuing education to maintain my PE license.

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

That is often the case. However, as an fyi, the first couple of paragraphs were a copy and paste from an article, not something I created.

I do wonder if people understand the risk that doctors (and other professionals with professional licenses to practice their profession) take though when they falsify something. There are ethics requirements & malpractice lawsuits in play here that can result in the loss of a license. Those are often career ending types of events. As a professional engineer, I often had to complete ethics courses and training as part of my continuing education to maintain my PE license.

I hope you are not insinuating that Boychuk is faking his injury.

 

[FerrisRox]

That is often the case. However, as an fyi, the first couple of paragraphs were a copy and paste from an article, not something I created.

I do wonder if people understand the risk that doctors (and other professionals with professional licenses to practice their profession) take though when they falsify something. There are ethics requirements & malpractice lawsuits in play here that can result in the loss of a license. Those are often career ending types of events. As a professional engineer, I often had to complete ethics courses and training as part of my continuing education to maintain my PE license.

I have posted about this before, but the notion that teams and players and doctors are all conspiring together to fake career ending injuries so teams can get out of cap trouble is not remotely realistic.

The team physician would have to agree to commit fraud and, as you point, put their entire career at risk.

Then, a totally different physician, appointed by the team and the PA, would have to join the conspiracy, then also commit fraud and jeopardize their entire career as well.

Then...

When the player goes on the IR because of this injury, and insurance company gets passed a multi million dollar bill to pay off the players salary and then they hire a whole other physician to examine the medical records as well, and guess what, he also joins the conspiracy and puts his career at risk as well.

It's just beyond stupid.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

I hope you are not insinuating that Boychuk is faking his injury.

I'm not saying that.

 

[Seanaconda]

This Hossa thing has always miffed me. If a person has skin allergies, wouldn't it be easy for a doctor (or virtually anyone) to verify i.e., just look at their skin? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that there would be procedures and that the NHLPA could challenge.

So, after some research, I found this (last paragraph is from the CBA).

The CBA details a set of procedures the league uses to determine if a team is trying to place a player who isn’t injured on IR, and since LTIR requires the player to be on IR, there’s no way to fake this. We saw examples of the NHL questioning the permanent assignment of players with vague conditions to LTIR in Joffrey Lupul and Marian Hossa.

But wait, it gets worse.

Understanding IR and LTIR for the capped-out Maple Leafs

(d) Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception to the Upper Limit. In the event that a Player on a Club becomes unfit to play (i.e., is injured, ill or disabled and unable to perform his duties as a hockey Player) such that the Club’s physician believes, in his or her opinion, that the Player, owing to either an injury or an illness, will be unfit to play for at least (i) twenty-four (24) calendar days and (ii) ten (10) NHL Regular Season games, and such Club desires to replace such Player, the Club may add an additional Player or Players to its Active Roster, and the replacement Player Salary and Bonuses of such additional Player(s) may increase the Club’s Averaged Club Salary to an amount up to and exceeding the Upper Limit, solely as, and to the extent and for the duration, set forth below. If, however, the League wishes to challenge the determination of a Club physician that a Player is unfit to play for purposes of the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception, the League and the NHLPA shall promptly confer and jointly select a neutral physician, who shall review the Club physician’s determination regarding the Player’s fitness to play.​

He had skin allergies forever his steroid increase is why he had to stop

 

[LeapOnOver]

For the most part, the contracts are insured. The player gets his money. LTIR when you know the guy is never coming back is about circumventing cap the same way it is when every team pulls this crap.

What are you talking about? LTIR is designed to not punish teams that have a player who can't play because of severe injury anymore. Your babbling is nonsensical. The alternatives are:
forced retirement
forced to play and risk injury to get paid.

LTIR is for both the player and the team. It benefits literally EVERYBODY. The only people I could see complaining are maybe insurers, but they are laughing to the bank every day as it is.

 

[McSuper]

How long is Boychuk expect to be on LTIR ? Unless it is a career ending injury no team is taking him especially cap teams as the minute he comes back is the minute they have to be cap compliance. If the OP took a look at all other trades involving a LTIR player it was to a team with lot of cap space . If a team needs (example) 1 million to get to the cap floor and they get an asset plus a player that’s on LTIR at 1 million it gets them to the floor and they pick up an asset for a simple paper transaction. I call it a paper transaction as the player never even has to show up . Cap teams do not take LTIR players . Cheap owners do or rebuilding teams do .

 

[IslesNorway]

How long is Boychuk expect to be on LTIR ? Unless it is a career ending injury no team is taking him especially cap teams as the minute he comes back is the minute they have to be cap compliance. If the OP took a look at all other trades involving a LTIR player it was to a team with lot of cap space . If a team needs (example) 1 million to get to the cap floor and they get an asset plus a player that’s on LTIR at 1 million it gets them to the floor and they pick up an asset for a simple paper transaction. I call it a paper transaction as the player never even has to show up . Cap teams do not take LTIR players . Cheap owners do or rebuilding teams do .

It is career ending. He will never play again. Both Clarkson and Horton have been dealt to teams like the Leafs because it allows them to exceed the cap

 

[hmc1987]

If Boychuck’s LTIR contract is off the Islanders they gain 6m of cap space.

If his LTIR contract stays on the Islanders, they can exceed the cap max by around 6mil.

Isles will still have space.

...so TBL may have an interest in Boychuk....

Yet Isles have, what, ~$3m in space and Barzal remains RFA...so the Isles need that cushion

 

[hmc1987]

How long is Boychuk expect to be on LTIR ? Unless it is a career ending injury no team is taking him especially cap teams as the minute he comes back is the minute they have to be cap compliance. If the OP took a look at all other trades involving a LTIR player it was to a team with lot of cap space . If a team needs (example) 1 million to get to the cap floor and they get an asset plus a player that’s on LTIR at 1 million it gets them to the floor and they pick up an asset for a simple paper transaction. I call it a paper transaction as the player never even has to show up . Cap teams do not take LTIR players . Cheap owners do or rebuilding teams do .

Boychuk himself held a press conference announcing he cant play again. Lots of tears.

 

[boredmale]

...so TBL may have an interest in Boychuk....

Yet Isles have, what, ~$3m in space and Barzal remains RFA...so the Isles need that cushion

Close to 10M in capspace now when you factor in Boychuk's 6M won't count

 

[BLNY]

Looking for the speculation. All I can find is something to drive potential proposals ...

 

[hmc1987]

Close to 10M in capspace now when you factor in Boychuk's 6M won't count

Ya and Barzal will take up pretty much that. And he's worth it. Maybe team friendly @ ~$8??

 

[CREW99AW]

A new article discussing the Isles cap situation and when we can expect to see Boychuk moved to LTIR.


Mathew Barzal expected to sign bridge deal with Islanders worth $7M per year?
If they want to get this deal done and be in cap and roster compliance before placing Boychuk on LTIR, there is going to have to be some roster juggling. Some high-priced veterans (such as Andrew Ladd, Thomas Hickey, and Leo Komarov) could be waived in camp and sent down, freeing up $1.075M each in cap space before having to offset that amount by a minimum-salaried recall. Expected goalie Ilya Sorokin (who is waiver-exempt) could also go down and be temporarily replaced by a lower-salaried netminder on their season-opening roster before those transactions were reversed. Even more of those moves might be required to pull that particular strategy off.

Gross adds that deals are believed to be in place for goalie Cory Schneider (which had been reported back in October), defenseman Andy Greene, and winger Matt Martin. That money can’t be committed until they get Barzal signed and Boychuk transferred with the latter move happening right at the beginning of the season. As a result, it’s probable that those veterans will be in camp on PTO deals only.

 

[CREW99AW]

Ya and Barzal will take up pretty much that. And he's worth it. Maybe team friendly @ ~$8??

The tweets and articles I am reading, are saying anywhere from $6m-$7m per, on a 2-3 yr deal.

 

[boredmale]

Ya and Barzal will take up pretty much that. And he's worth it. Maybe team friendly @ ~$8??

My guess is Point's deal will be the basis for Barzal(2-3 years 6.5M)

Some high-priced veterans (such as Andrew Ladd, Thomas Hickey, and Leo Komarov) could be waived in camp and sent down, freeing up $1.075M each in cap space before having to offset that amount by a minimum-salaried recall.

I can see many teams having players(who are no threat of losing to waivers) go up and down during the season so they can save on capspace. From and Islanders perspective I could see Eberle being part of that sending up and down train(assuming we have practice rosters for extras and no AHL season)

I also see Islanders trying to unload Komarov, who actually has a pretty salary friendly deal so it wouldn't take much to dump him

 

[mouser]

My guess is Point's deal will be the basis for Barzal(2-3 years 6.5M)



I can see many teams having players(who are no threat of losing to waivers) go up and down during the season so they can save on capspace. From and Islanders perspective I could see Eberle being part of that sending up and down train(assuming we have practice rosters for extras and no AHL season)

I also see Islanders trying to unload Komarov, who actually has a pretty salary friendly deal so it wouldn't take much to dump him

There’s no cap benefit to sending players up and down if it doesn’t get a team out of using LTIR relief. So if Boychuk is on LTIR then there’s probably nothing to be gained from daily cap maneuvers.

 

[boredmale]

There’s no cap benefit to sending players up and down if it doesn’t get a team out of using LTIR relief. So if Boychuk is on LTIR then there’s probably nothing to be gained from daily cap maneuvers.

Let's say you play Saturday Tuesday, Friday and Saturday

Call player up Saturday he plays, Send him down after the game, call him up Tuesday, send him down till Friday. You basically can declare his salary AHL salary for Sunday, Monday, Wednesday and Thursday and over the coarse of the season you can declare up to 1M of a players salary as AHL salary(although I think that would be prorated(ie if you spent 40% of the time up in the NHL roster you can only declare 60% of that 1 Million).

 

[mouser]

Let's say you play Saturday Tuesday, Friday and Saturday

Call player up Saturday he plays, Send him down after the game, call him up Tuesday, send him down till Friday. You basically can declare his salary AHL salary for Sunday, Monday, Wednesday and Thursday and over the coarse of the season you can declare up to 1M of a players salary as AHL salary(although I think that would be prorated(ie if you spent 40% of the time up in the NHL roster you can only declare 60% of that 1 Million).

I know that, however teams don’t accumulate cap space if they’re using LTIR to be cap compliant.

If the Isles are using a $6m Boychuk LTIR to be cap compliant then it doesn’t matter if the team is actually using $1m of LTIR cap relief or the full $6m of LTIR cap relief on any given day. No cap space is banked as long as $1 of LTIR relief is being used.

Any temporary AHL loan would have to leave the Isles cap compliant with Boychuk’s full $6m counting against the cap to bank cap space for future benefit.

 

[boredmale]

I know that, however teams don’t accumulate cap space if they’re using LTIR to be cap compliant.

If the Isles are using a $6m Boychuk LTIR to be cap compliant then it doesn’t matter if the team is actually using $1m of LTIR cap relief or the full $6m of LTIR cap relief on any given day. No cap space is banked as long as $1 of LTIR relief is being used.

Any temporary AHL loan would have to leave the Isles cap compliant with Boychuk’s full $6m counting against the cap to bank cap space for future benefit.

My suggestion was how Islanders can create more cap space beyond what they have now(between actual cap space and Boychuk going on LTIR)

When you look at that 10M, that will go away pretty fast if you factor in Barzal @ 6.5M, Martin and Greene @ ~ 2M each and Schneider(who probably will spend the bulk of his time on the practice roster). You might also want to factor in there they might want to resign Brassard or some other guy to add 3rd line depth scoring