Post-Game Talk: Plus-Minus Thread | Penguins 3, Panthers 1

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ColePens

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Mar 27, 2008
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I might be one of the few naive people that believe the coach is given more free reign to coach how he wants than most people believe. I don't believe upper management has a lot to say about lines. I think they discuss productivity, but I don't believe they have a huge say in lines.
 

Ogrezilla

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I don't get all this talk about Glass vs BB, If pens are healthy the last roster spot will come down to TK vs Glass.

you're right. It sucks.

I might be one of the few naive people that believe the coach is given more free reign to coach how he wants than most people believe. I don't believe upper management has a lot to say about lines. I think they discuss productivity, but I don't believe they have a huge say in lines.

I definitely agree. It's Bylsma's bench and his line-up.
 

shizno*

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On the bright side, it's good to know if heaven forbid Dupuis or Neal go down in the playoffs we have a rested/healthy Bennett to come in...same with Vitale for center. Vitales high energy game seems like it would benefit from having time off
 

Ogrezilla

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On the bright side, it's good to know if heaven forbid Dupuis or Neal go down in the playoffs we have a rested/healthy Bennett to come in...same with Vitale for center. Vitales high energy game seems like it would benefit from having time off

Except as we've seen, Tyler Kennedy may in fact be put at Center before Joe Vitale if its possible.
 

MtlPenFan

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Apr 14, 2010
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Is there an actual debate about this?

Out of the entire roster, Glass should be the first one sitting. It's hardly even debatable.
 

PensFanSince1989

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Oct 25, 2008
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In the end, Bylsma obviously has a game plan. And as long as the Prnguins keep playing as well as they have , I have a hard time taking people sit here and yell about how poor that game plan is all that seriously. Bylsma certainly isn't perfect, I've been on the fire Bylsma fence more than once. If they start playing like they did to finish thelast season or even earlier this season, then some changes should be made. But we currently sit with 32 wins in 42 games. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement and maybe taking someone like Glass out would... Or, just maybe, the coaching staff has a decent idea of the strengths and who can be trusted more for what role, and maybe, Glass's hitting ( it doesn't have to be Ovechkin or Kronwall style to make an impact in the game) actually does serve a purpose. And again, not even gonna go into locker room issues that we know nothing about. I like Bennett, though Vitale is someone this board has an unhealthy man crush on it seems. But both can probably be productive members of this team.

With all that said, I wouldn't be surprised if Bennett or Vitale earn themselves a spot on the 18 game day roster if they continue to play like this.
 

Rocket of Russia

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Mar 8, 2012
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You aren't only questioning DB. You are questioning EVERY SINGLE upper manager in the entire pens organization.

No, I’m not.

You don't think if DB was doing something that was night and day ridiculous, someone wouldn't bring this up?

No, I think an owner selects a GM to be a GM. I think a GM selects a head coach…to be a head coach.

A better question is what qualifies you or anyone to assert a statement that X player is better than Y player, when it's clear those who have the power/control disagree?

What qualifies me to voice my opinion on the topic? Well, being an American I suppose I think it’s my right to do so. How much of my post did you read? I all but called out this rebuttal before you even gave it, and you not addressing it leads me to believe you didn’t read it:

These are clear as day faults occurring for all to see. To say that the lineup is the best it can be because DB is a professional coach and we’re armchair GMs is the result of a conformed mind.

If you aren’t offended by hyperbole, do you trust decisions politicians make on your behalf in regards to food safety, securities regulation, or inflation data simply because they have been deemed the best leaders the country has to offer?

Bylsma’s been wrong in the past:

I believe many of us would leave DB’s decisions alone if they weren't proven wrong time and again: 1) He’s wrong about Bennett. He scratches Bennett and the 4th line goes anemic, then is forced to add Bennett due to injuries and suddenly the 4th line is dangerous. 2) He’s been wrong about TK. TK is tried on separate occasions on both top lines, much to the chagrin of the same critics, and DB is basically reprimanded by Shero when Shero brings in Jokinen. 3) He’s been wrong in his placement of Iginla. The 2nd line winger is STILL a mystery to DB and he fixes it with Iginla, which isn’t the right mix, but is somewhat masked (not really but it’s gotta be the slightest reason why DB continued with it) due to sheer talent. 4) He was wrong to try Neal on the PP point. 5) He was wrong to consistently match Adams, Glass, and Jeffrey/Vitale against opponents’ top lines.

Take every season since the NHL began. Coaches put out lineups. Teams excel or fail. Coaches are praised or fired. At one point in time each one of those fired coaches had iced lineups. If the lineups resulted in a team failure and a coach being fired, were they not worthy of being criticized at a given point in time?

Finally, I’m qualified to criticize Bylsma’s on-ice product because I’m a rational human being with eyes and a wallet.
 

MtlPenFan

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Listen, I'm the biggest DB supporter there is on these boards. Injuries, erratic goaltending, and the team still finds ways to win. Last year is the only legit "meltdown" this team has had. People who still bring up Montreal and Tampa Bay are looking for reasons to get pissed off. Any legit gripes they have are wiped out completely when people bring up other nonsense. It's far too often become a witch hunt on these boards based on the observations off a couple of posters who seem to have an agenda.

That being said, Glass over Vitale is beyond nonsensical. If I'm taking shots at this coach, then you know it's bad. Vitale did more on that Morrow goal than Glass has done cumulatively the entire season. He is by far the most useless player on the team and that's not even up for debate. When you have the amount of depth we suddenly find ourselves with, Glass is the first guy you're looking to sit.
 

shizno*

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Listen, I'm the biggest DB supporter there is on these boards. Injuries, erratic goaltending, and the team still finds ways to win. Last year is the only legit "meltdown" this team has had. People who still bring up Montreal and Tampa Bay are looking for reasons to get pissed off. Any legit gripes they have are wiped out completely when people bring up other nonsense. It's far too often become a witch hunt on these boards based on the observations off a couple of posters who seem to have an agenda.

That being said, Glass over Vitale is beyond nonsensical. If I'm taking shots at this coach, then you know it's bad. Vitale did more on that Morrow goal than Glass has done cumulatively the entire season. He is by far the most useless player on the team and that's not even up for debate. When you have the amount of depth we suddenly find ourselves with, Glass is the first guy you're looking to sit.

That's just it though, this team didn't get Glass to score goals, we have the most top end offense of any team as it is. If we were relying on Glass for scoring we are in deep **** to begin with. When the season started we only had Glass and Engo for toughness (unless you want to include Orpik and neutered Cooke I suppose). Now that we enter the playoffs who knows if they even run with Glass, everyone is just speculating and calling for DBs head...just like they were before the 15 game streak..you know...when everyone here was certain DB had 'lost this team' and couldn't couch his way out of a paper bag etc I sometimes forget we went on that streak in spite of DB, not because of him at all.
 

Mr Jiggyfly

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That's just it though, this team didn't get Glass to score goals, we have the most top end offense of any team as it is. If we were relying on Glass for scoring we are in deep **** to begin with. When the season started we only had Glass and Engo for toughness (unless you want to include Orpik and neutered Cooke I suppose). Now that we enter the playoffs who knows if they even run with Glass, everyone is just speculating and calling for DBs head...just like they were before the 15 game streak..you know...when everyone here was certain DB had 'lost this team' and couldn't couch his way out of a paper bag etc I sometimes forget we went on that streak in spite of DB, not because of him at all.

"Everyone" is calling for DB head? Everyone? Really?

When DB was under relentless attack last Summer, myself and others defended him time and again, and we still do. Throw out a search if you like.

Just because we support him, that doesn't mean he always makes the right decisions and we blindly agree with him at all times.

He's made good decisions and he has made some bad decisions. He is prone to making odd decisions and I've admitted when debating with the "fire DB" crowd, that his inherent weakness is in fact his stubbornness. That is the one flaw that could be his undoing.

If he is going to become the coach those of us who support him think he can be, he needs to overcome that stubbornness.
 

MrBurghundy

I may be older but I'm never forgetting #47 & #41
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Vitale is THE BEST faceoff guy percentage wise in the NHL among players that have taken at least 200 draws.

Let me state that again. Vitale is THE BEST faceoff guy in THE ENTIRE NHL among players that have taken at least 200 draws.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats....Name=rtssPlayerStats&sort=faceOffWinPctg&pg=1

faceoff_percentage_1_zps851118ae.png

faceoff_percentage_2_zps753bb08c.png
 
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cheesedanish87

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Jun 27, 2012
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I know Vitale is good at faceoffs but he doesn't fit in the pens lineup if everybody is healthy, Pens should be good at faceoffs during the playoffs with Sid Sutter and Jokinen, Geno is the only one who struggles at faceoffs.
 

Ogrezilla

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If Bennett doesn't play, I think Jokinen will have to play wing. At that point, Vitale should play 4C. If Bennett plays, I think Vitale sits while Jokinen and Sutter fill out the bottom 6 center spots.

I expect Bennett sits, Jokinen plays wing and Adams plays 4th line center.
 

cheesedanish87

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If Bennett doesn't play, I think Jokinen will have to play wing. At that point, Vitale should play 4C. If Bennett plays, I think Vitale sits while Jokinen and Sutter fill out the bottom 6 center spots.

I expect Bennett sits, Jokinen plays wing and Adams plays 4th line center.

Yeah, You can make a case for Vitale playing if Jokinen moves to wing but I doubt DB would do that, You would be taking away one of Jokinen's biggest strengths.
 

MrBurghundy

I may be older but I'm never forgetting #47 & #41
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I know Vitale is good at faceoffs but he doesn't fit in the pens lineup if everybody is healthy, Pens should be good at faceoffs during the playoffs with Sid Sutter and Jokinen, Geno is the only one who struggles at faceoffs.

How the top faceoff guy in the NHL doesn't "fit in the pens lineup when everybody is healthy" is just so wrong on so many levels. This is completely ignoring everything else he does too.
 

Ogrezilla

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How the top faceoff guy in the NHL doesn't "fit in the pens lineup when everybody is healthy" is just so wrong on so many levels. This is completely ignoring everything else he does too.

It should be between Vitale and Adams as the 12th guy. I can understand either getting in. And that's with TK sitting, who a case could certainly be made for.

Sid, Geno, Kunitz, Neal, Dupuis, Iginla, Morrow, Sutter, Cooke, Jokinen and Bennett should be our 11 locks imo.
 

Malkinstheman

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Aug 12, 2012
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Every coach seems to have one player that they just do not like. I will be be really surprised if vitale doesnt play on wednesday.
A 4th line of adams-vitale-tk/bennett would create so much energy,offence
 

cheesedanish87

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Jun 27, 2012
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How the top faceoff guy in the NHL doesn't "fit in the pens lineup when everybody is healthy" is just so wrong on so many levels. This is completely ignoring everything else he does too.

You make it sound like Vitale is the next Sidney Crosby, I like Vitale hes a good 4th line center but hes nothing more then a 4th line center, Like i said earlier if they would move Jokinen to wing you can make a case for Vitale being in the lineup, I hope im not coming off as a Vitale hater but i don't think theirs any room for him when you got Sid, Geno, Sutter, Jokinen as your top 4 centers.
 

MtlPenFan

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Juice and Said to take draws on the left, and Joe V. On the right. It really is that simple.
 

Crafton

Liver-Eating Johnson
May 6, 2010
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How the top faceoff guy in the NHL doesn't "fit in the pens lineup when everybody is healthy" is just so wrong on so many levels. This is completely ignoring everything else he does too.

Vitale should be in the lineup. but to call him the 'top faceoff guy in the NHL' is laughable. this isn't Patrice Bergeron we're talking about.
 

Ogrezilla

Nerf Herder
Jul 5, 2009
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Juice and Said to take draws on the left, and Joe V. On the right. It really is that simple.

we need to get Vitale in the line-up killing penalties as much as possible the rest of the way to get him used to how we do it. It should have been happening from day one this year. No reason a non-center should ever take a PK faceoff for us at this point with Sutter, Jokinen, Vitale and eventually Sid in the line-up.
 

MrBurghundy

I may be older but I'm never forgetting #47 & #41
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You make it sound like Vitale is the next Sidney Crosby, I like Vitale hes a good 4th line center but hes nothing more then a 4th line center, Like i said earlier if they would move Jokinen to wing you can make a case for Vitale being in the lineup, I hope im not coming off as a Vitale hater but i don't think theirs any room for him when you got Sid, Geno, Sutter, Jokinen as your top 4 centers.

I never said he was anything more than a 4th line center. Please enlighten me.

How is it ever a bad thing to have more than 4 good faceoff guys in the lineup? Especially when they are better than other players currently in the lineup.

Mind boggling that people are still ignorant to this.
 

MrBurghundy

I may be older but I'm never forgetting #47 & #41
Oct 5, 2009
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Vitale should be in the lineup. but to call him the 'top faceoff guy in the NHL' is laughable. this isn't Patrice Bergeron we're talking about.

Statistically speaking, that's 100% accurate.

He's going to be taking 4th line draws, and won't be up against the Bergeron's of the world. To say that stat is laughable though is in and of itself also laughable. He's extremely good on the faceoff dot, and should be playing because of it.
 
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