Post-Game Talk: Plus-Minus Thread | Penguins 3, Panthers 1

[Ogrezilla]

I think the 4th line makes a difference, but I honestly don't believe that the best lines we could ice when everyone is healthy includes either Glass or Vitale.

My line-up would probably have Sutter and Jokinen as my bottom 6 centers. But if Jokinen plays wing, I'd play Vitale as 4C over Adams. I like Adams at wing, but not at center.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Everyone we are arguing about are capable 4th liners.
During the streak, Glass always played and Vitale was in and out of the lineup.

We've lost 2 games in our last 20, is it? And Vitale was out for a good bit of them.

and Malkin missed a bunch of games in there. Doesn't mean its the best way to set up the lines.

We can win in spite of Glass. We are good enough to do it. But why wouldn't we want to play someone better than him when he's available?

 

[madinsomniac]

Glass is top 20 in the league in hitting (#17 at 108)which equals making them hard to play against. Vitale has faceoffs but he's hardly hard to play against (at #185 for 40) and you can see the same traits for Kunitz (#32)Adams, Cooke top 50 (42&43)with guys like Dupuis just above at #58 with even Marrow and Iginla not far behind being in the top 100 as, Glass.

If you don't see the pattern after this, then you will never understand.

They want to be hard to play against. Joe's faceoffs are covered, and they have been winning with or without, Vitale, who's been more of a injury fill in now.

Hard to play against = wearing teams down. Over a 7 games series that's a lot of bumps and bruises.

That's the last I'll speak of this.

Yes but Glass isnt destroying people with hits. he love taps them at best. If you are keeping him in because he hits like he does, well thats just not worth it IMO.

 

[Ugene Magic]

In a seven game series who is going to force more turnovers and cause the most havoc? Glass or Vitale?

I prefer the instant turnovers Vitale creates as opposed to "investment hockey" like Glass plays that may or may not wear down an opponent.

Glass doesn't force turnovers.

Glass doesn't win races to loose pucks.

Glass can't create anything on his own.

These are the characteristics you need from your fourth liners to win in the playoffs. Vitale is also much more capable of scoring clutch goals and setting them up.

Glass doesn't have a single point in 24 playoff games. 24. Games.

Glass ****ing fanned on a wide open net in game five of the SC.

Glass is an inferior player to Vitale and this isn't the last I'll speak of it.

Maybe Glass can play point on the PP.

In a playoff scenario? Vitale hasn't even been in enough of them

Vitale has exactly -0- in 4 games, what of it. I'm sure there have been way better players in NHL playoff history who have missed wide open nets. Where are Vitale's clutch goals in the playoffs, right, he has none, but you said capable which means the same thing. You have either scored them in the playoffs or you haven't.

I've watched Vitale and have grown to watch him get muscled off the puck TK style. For all the good you all say he's done he's also been inconsistent, save faceoffs. We're talking a world beater here. 31 games 2 goals 3 assists -5 40 hits 12:00 minutes a game. The Piece!

Creating, are we talking the top lines or the 4th. Crash, bang, try to hold the puck in their zone as long as possible. This line is not relient on scoring. Yep, it's nice when it happens, sometimes it's a game changer, but most times it's not

Please....

 

[Waffle Fries]

My line-up would probably have Sutter and Jokinen as my bottom 6 centers. But if Jokinen plays wing, I'd play Vitale as 4C over Adams. I like Adams at wing, but not at center.

As would mine. Of course Jokinen's ability to remain at center more than likely hinges on if Bennett remains in the lineup.

With Bennett:
Kunitz-Crosby-Iginla
Bennett-Malkin-Neal
Morrow-Sutter-Dupuis
Cooke-Jokinen-Adams

Without Bennett, I would like to see:

Kunitz-Crosby-Iginla
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal
Morrow-Sutter-Dupuis
Cooke-Vitale-Adams

More than likely neither Vitale or Bennett will be in the lineup. Even without those two, Dan will have to make the choice of sitting one of Glass or Kennedy because I honestly don't believe he'll sit Jokinen.

 

[WayneSid9987]

With a full healthy lineup, it's impossible to gauge where DB fits in Jokinen or Morrow let alone Glass or Vitale or Bennett.

 

[ColePens]

UM - you have dug the grave about as far as you possibly can. Come on, now. We get that Glass has picked up his game, but you cannot possibly identify his role and sell it to ANYONE that he does his job adequately.

You also cannot identify his job outside of finishing hits and how Vitale and Beau have actually shown they can do it better.

At some point, I guess we have to agree to disagree, but there is a reason it's only you and maybe 1 other person on this earth fighting this cause.

And for those saying 4th liners aren't important - I'd be careful with that. Beau's goal the other night changed the way the game went. Vitale's goal against Boston changed the way the game went. Name me one Glass moment all season where it changed how the game was played. Just one, please. That might be the difference between a 2-2 series and a 3-1 series. Role players have always been huge in postseason runs.

 

[Zatch88]

Everyone we are arguing about are capable 4th liners.
During the streak, Glass always played and Vitale was in and out of the lineup.

We've lost 2 games in our last 20, is it? And Vitale was out for a good bit of them.

The pens have won in spite of Glass being in the lineup, not because of him.

Wheres that gif of glass passing it along the boards behind the net to absolutely NO ONE in particular with a montreal guy standing right next to him, who then goes on to have a quality scoring chance? after seeing it, you really wonder how this guy is making over 7 figures in the NHL. He's an overpriced plug and one of shero's worst acquisitions, in my opinion.

 

[Allie Kitsune]

Not to mention that Glass has put us in 5-on-3 situations on multiple occasions this season...

 

[Hobodrifter]

I'm not sure how there is an argument about whether or not Glass should be anything other than a last resort option in case of multiple injuries. If Bylsma insists on using him, which I'm not convinced Bylsma will do, then it's an indict of Bylsma and his inability to utilize talent in his lineup.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

I strongly disagree. Vitale had/has his moments, but I can't shake the many times he loses the puck.

Vitale losing the puck bothers you? And the countless times Glass loses the race to even possess the puck? Or his lack of speed allows the opposing team to control the puck and exit their defensive zone, only to be bumped into a solid second after the puck is played?

That's cherry picking. I never said he never had a good game/stretch.

You just said this:

Exactly, against a much much inferior foe. Those mainstays played the other night having a great game against a much much more talented roster.

Point being here, on my end is, does he shine that much against a team chasing us in the standings rather than "the worst team" in the league?

And then when I showed you clear instances of Vitale stepping up in big games against important opponents like the Bruins you said I "cherry picked." Wouldn't I need to cherry pick data for the very specific criteria you requested? Not even a blush?

I actually think I'm being attacked by the Vitale family crew here.

You're being "attacked" because you state your opinion on a topic as if it's conclusive. When pushed for evidence you provide none, and ridicule others' evidence contrary to your opinion as "cherry picked" or just the result of "Vitale fanboys" without even a shred of remorse for the obvious hypocrisy in your words.

Do you have your "Joe Vitale Stetch Arm Strong" in your arms as you type?

I hope so, you can start stretching him so he can get bigger, oh wait.

Do they post video's of the times players don't make a mark on a game/inconsistent play?

Sorry, to hurt the Vitale family feelings. *Frowny Face*

Given that most on here would admit that a fully healthy lineup wouldn't include Vitale as well as Glass, I'm not so sure why you need to constantly stir up the Glass is better for this lineup than Vitale debate, especially if at the end of the day it's a "agree to disagree" situation in regards to Glass's hits making an impact on the games.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Everyone we are arguing about are capable 4th liners.
During the streak, Glass always played and Vitale was in and out of the lineup.

We've lost 2 games in our last 20, is it? And Vitale was out for a good bit of them.

So? Why settle for a great team when you know you can have an even better one?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

In a playoff scenario? Vitale hasn't even been in enough of them

Lets look at the resume of the guy he should be playing for...

- pointless in 24 playoff games
- fan on the puck with a wide open net and not a soul near him in game 5 of the SC... in a 0-0 game.

Captain clutch.

Somehow I think Vitale can reach deep and trump that kind of playoff prowess.

Vitale has exactly -0- in 4 games, what of it. I'm sure there have been way better players in NHL playoff history who have missed wide open nets. Where are Vitale's clutch goals in the playoffs, right, he has none, but you said capable which means the same thing. You have either scored them in the playoffs or you haven't.

He has shown clutch play this season. When has Glass?

In fact when has Glass ever shown clutch play in the playoffs or regular season?

I've watched Vitale and have grown to watch him get muscled off the puck TK style. For all the good you all say he's done he's also been inconsistent, save faceoffs. We're talking a world beater here. 31 games 2 goals 3 assists -5 40 hits 12:00 minutes a game. The Piece!

Funny how you won't comment on how poorly Glass cycles the puck and gets it stripped from him. He has zero clue about board leverage and can't move his feet with the puck down low and lets guys lean on him.

Vitale is an all-star on the boards compared to Glass.

And consistency comes when you play every night. Given how he has been jerked around all season, Vitale has still made clutch plays.

Once again give me one clutch play Glass has made.

Creating, are we talking the top lines or the 4th. Crash, bang, try to hold the puck in their zone as long as possible. This line is not relient on scoring. Yep, it's nice when it happens, sometimes it's a game changer, but most times it's not

Please....

Fourth line scoring matters. I'm not even going to get into how clueless one has to be to think you can ice an inferior lineup and still win in the playoffs. Lets hope Malkin and Crosby engage God mode... Worked well the last few years...

Investment hockey is a lame ass label DB made up that has been around for decades.

The goal of a forecheck is to force turnovers and that is what Vitale does. His style of play brings instant results. You don't have to wait around for seven games and hope that Glass hitting guys after they move the puck and looking clueless the rest of the game will hopefully, maybe, just might pay off by wearing guys down.

Fans of this team seem to think they are some powerhouse who can just roll with passengers like Glass.

Every player matters. Anyone who disrespects the game enough to think a fourth liner doesn't matter in the playoffs needs a history lesson about the SC.

 

[ColePens]

Going off a little of what Jiggy said (in a weird way regarding clutch):

In 2009, we left Sykora out of the line up. Now he has more goals than Talbot could dream of... but Talbot was getting the job done. Not that Talbot was some ultimate goal scorer or anything, but he did the role better. I think we know what happened with Mr. Clutch.

So if we can identify, clearly, someone doing the role better, why is Glass still in there?

 

[MrBurghundy]

You ice the best lineup you can. Period.

There is no world in which Glass is a better hockey player than Vitale. None.

 

[RH710]

Joining in late here. Glass just isn't on everyone's level. I don't see anything that he adds to this team. Just a liability. I love Vitale's speed and grit, that won't take as many stupid untimely penalties, and actually has offensive capabilities to maybe possibly bury one or two. Glass has won Bylsma over which has happened to others in the past as well. I don't see him leaving the lineup unfortunately. Bylsma has a mancrush.

 

[ColePens]

This will be a warning to everyone - this is a spirited debate. Posts that go to the extreme and add nothing to conversation will be deleted and potentially given an infraction. This is what we have to converse over for the last 6 games. If you don't like it - ignore the thread.

Not discussing it anymore. If you have issues - PM me.

 

[Valarukar]

Well lets try to be objective about it and compare each player in all aspects of the game instead of **** throwing.

Overall defensive game in own zone
Ability to exit puck from own zone
Shot blocking
Defensive board work
Faceoffs
Play in neutral zone offensive
Play in neutral zone defensive
Ability to carry puck through neutral zone
Backchecking
Dump and chase game
Offensive board work
Offensive cycle ability
Covering pinching D
Net front presence
Overall offensive game in O zone
Offense off the rush
Forechecking
Finding the trailer
Hitting
PKing
Acceleration
Top end speed
Skating
Wrist shot
Slap shot
Taking penalties
Drawing penalties
Agitating
Fighting

All that comes to mind at this moment.

 

[titaniumexpose]

This is based on the point that the purpose of a 4th line is to be physical and wear a team down. Honestly, there's no contest here. Glass is the worst player in the lineup just about every night. This is the nhl, the purpose is to score goals and win, not just hit (weakly). If that is all he is in the lineup for than he might take some tips from Kunitz, Dupuis, and maybe Bennett on how this team hits. The reason I mentioned #14 &#9 is because we have all noticed them when they have made hits, and they are also effective at it. If your first line can score and outhit your 4th line with hitting not their primary role, then that needs to be addressed.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I don't get all this talk about Glass vs BB, If pens are healthy the last roster spot will come down to TK vs Glass.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

This is based on the point that the purpose of a 4th line is to be physical and wear a team down. Honestly, there's no contest here. Glass is the worst player in the lineup just about every night. This is the nhl, the purpose is to score goals and win, not just hit (weakly). If that is all he is in the lineup for than he might take some tips from Kunitz, Dupuis, and maybe Bennett on how this team hits. The reason I mentioned #14 is because we have all noticed them when they have made hits, and they are also effective at it. If your first line can score and outhit your 4th line with hitting not their primary role, then that needs to be addressed.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around anyone saying that hitting can wear your opponents down, but forcing them to skate with a guy like Vitale for seven games won't wear them down?

Vitale goes full throttle every shift. He forces guys to give max effort to keep up with him. You have to skate all out to beat him to pucks... He also peels off the boards quickly and you have to stay with him when he goes to the net and other dangerous areas of the ice. He is a true energy guy that creates turnovers and causes problems for teams.

It's a constant battle fighting off guys like Vitale for seven games. He gets under your skin and wears you down.

Glass literally hunts down a few pucks a game if he is lucky, throws decent hits after the puck is moved, and generally looks lost in the attacking zone. Guys don't have to fully exert themselves to defend Glass.

Glass plays "Investment hockey" that is akin to investing in penny stocks.

Vitale plays "Instant results hockey" that shows up shift after shift.

This is simply another case of DB making an odd decision that mostly everyone can see isn't the best decision for his team. Just like most fans knew right away Neal at the point was a bad idea because of his lateral skating, but DB ignored the obvious.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

I don't get all this talk about Glass vs BB, If pens are healthy the last roster spot will come down to TK vs Glass.

What's not to get? People are saying they'd prefer Vitale over Glass...Bennett over Glass...any two-legged mammal over Glass.

I don't think there's much argument about what DB plans to do when healthy. Stating that it ultimately doesn’t matter that we’re talking about Vitale or Bennett in the lineup because DB will choose Glass or TK is needless, and if that is the point we’re to stick to then there really isn’t that much to discuss other than to pat DB on that back.

I believe many of us would leave DB’s decisions alone if they weren't proven wrong time and again: 1) He’s wrong about Bennett. He scratches Bennett and the 4th line goes anemic, then is forced to add Bennett due to injuries and suddenly the 4th line is dangerous. 2) He’s been wrong about TK. TK is tried on separate occasions on both top lines, much to the chagrin of the same critics, and DB is basically reprimanded by Shero when Shero brings in Jokinen. 3) He’s been wrong in his placement of Iginla. The 2nd line winger is STILL a mystery to DB and he fixes it with Iginla, which isn’t the right mix, but is somewhat masked (not really but it’s gotta be the slightest reason why DB continued with it) due to sheer talent. 4) He was wrong to try Neal on the PP point. 5) He was wrong to consistently match Adams, Glass, and Jeffrey/Vitale against opponents’ top lines.

These are clear as day faults occurring for all to see. To say that the lineup is the best it can be because DB is a professional coach and we’re armchair GMs is the result of a conformed mind.

We’re all passionate and knowledgeable (somewhat). We’ve all made the conscious decision to not just watch hockey, but study it, gravitate to a place of more knowledge, discuss it, and learn it. Skeptical minds here have pinpointed perceived weaknesses in the lineup and they’re being discussed.

If DB had given these skeptical minds more crow to eat other than, “see, Adams is capable of playing well” I’d be more inclined to give him a pass on scratching Bennett, Vitale, and possibly Jokinen.

And yes, 4th line players do matter. Just like in any great team sport, any player on any given night make all of the difference.

 

[shizno*]

These are clear as day faults occurring for all to see. To say that the lineup is the best it can be because DB is a professional coach and we’re armchair GMs is the result of a conformed mind.

We’re all passionate and knowledgeable (somewhat). We’ve all made the conscious decision to not just watch hockey, but study it, gravitate to a place of more knowledge, discuss it, and learn it. Skeptical minds here have pinpointed perceived weaknesses in the lineup and they’re being discussed.

If DB had given these skeptical minds more crow to eat other than, “see, Adams is capable of playing well†I’d be more inclined to give him a pass on scratching Bennett, Vitale, and possibly Jokinen.

And yes, 4th line players do matter. Just like in any great team sport, any player on any given night make all of the difference.

You aren't only questioning DB. You are questioning EVERY SINGLE upper manager in the entire pens organization. You don't think if DB was doing something that was night and day ridiculous, someone wouldn't bring this up? A better question is what qualifies you or anyone to assert a statement that X player is better than Y player, when it's clear those who have the power/control disagree?

 

[Fordy]

You aren't only questioning DB. You are questioning EVERY SINGLE upper manager in the entire pens organization. You don't think if DB was doing something that was night and day ridiculous, someone wouldn't bring this up? A better question is what qualifies you or anyone to assert a statement that X player is better than Y player, when it's clear those who have the power/control disagree?

If they didn't like Therrien's decisions why didn't they just tell him.

 

[Fordy]

Also, if this is a decision that all of upper management has made then we're in serious trouble, and they all need fired immediately. I don't care how many it is that agree, they're all wrong.