Post-Game Talk: Plus-Minus Thread | Penguins 3, Panthers 1

[Crafton]

Statistically speaking, that's 100% accurate.

He's going to be taking 4th line draws, and won't be up against the Bergeron's of the world. To say that stat is laughable though is in and of itself also laughable. He's extremely good on the faceoff dot, and should be playing because of it.

no need to crouch your argument in the hyperbolic rhetoric. you called him the 'top faceoff guy in the NHL' - if you believe that, more power to you. i'd take Steckel or slow-as-hell Handzuš or Jay McClement taking my 4th line faceoffs over Vitale. it's great that you're a passionate supporter of him. hell, i want him in the line-up as well, but you do disservice to your argument when you rely on hyperbole. sure it's confounding that Bylsma insists on sitting Vitale, but there's no reason to use hyperbole.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I never said he was anything more than a 4th line center. Please enlighten me.

How is it ever a bad thing to have more than 4 good faceoff guys in the lineup? Especially when they are better than other players currently in the lineup.

Mind boggling that people are still ignorant to this.

So you want Vitale to play wing on the 4th line? Just like Jokinen if you put Vitale on the wing your taking away his biggest strength. Maybe you feel different but if there going to play Vitale i dont want him to be a winger not taking faceoffs, Jokinen is 59% with a bigger sample size, No reason for Vitale to take faceoffs over Jokinen in my opinion.

 

[steveg]

So you want Vitale to play wing on the 4th line? Just like Jokinen if you put Vitale on the wing your taking away his biggest strength. Maybe you feel different but if there going to play Vitale i dont want him to be a winger not taking faceoffs, Jokinen is 59% with a bigger sample size, No reason for Vitale to take faceoffs over Jokinen in my opinion.

Not trying to be a jerk, but, you do know that a wing can take faceoffs, right?

 

[cheesedanish87]

Not trying to be a jerk, but, you do know that a wing can take faceoffs, right?

Yes, But i don't see the point of putting Vitale on the 4th line with Jokinen its not like Jokinen needs any help taking faceoffs.

 

[Stecz]

Yes, But i don't see the point of putting Vitale on the 4th line with Jokinen its not like Jokinen needs any help taking faceoffs.

Different handedness, so different strong circles. Sutter and Adams are the only other right handed guys who take draws regularly and both are pretty bad.

 

[JTG]

You make it sound like Vitale is the next Sidney Crosby, I like Vitale hes a good 4th line center but hes nothing more then a 4th line center, Like i said earlier if they would move Jokinen to wing you can make a case for Vitale being in the lineup, I hope im not coming off as a Vitale hater but i don't think theirs any room for him when you got Sid, Geno, Sutter, Jokinen as your top 4 centers.

And this argument is driving me nuts, along with the "Adams is a good PK'er," which I think is becoming less and less true as he ages. Who cares if he's "nothing more than a 4th line center?" Really...who cares? No one is asking him to be more than that. No one is saying he can be a top 6 center some day. Hell, I've never even heard someone say he can be a 3rd line center.

He brings a **** ton of energy and physicality that guys like Adams and Glass do. He generates way more offense from that position, and I'm not talking about statistically here. I'm talking about chances being generated in general. That 4th line looks so much better with Vitale centering it.

There is absolutely nothing that Glass or Adams brings that Vitale doesn't, and then add that he is a great faceoff guy.

I personally think Jokinen on Geno's wing is the best for this team...not as a 4th line center.

Vitale should be in the lineup. but to call him the 'top faceoff guy in the NHL' is laughable. this isn't Patrice Bergeron we're talking about.

I don't think it's that laughable. He has consistently produced the past 2 seasons at around the same numbers, and his numbers have never dipped. It's not like he's on a hot spell or something in the dot. No, he's not in Bergeron's class, or even Crosby or Toews class, but I think that's mainly because he hasn't had the longevity yet. Not a doubt in my mind he could be talked about in the same breath as some of this leagues best faceoff specialists if he could be on the roster as an every day player.

 

[MtlPenFan]

we need to get Vitale in the line-up killing penalties as much as possible the rest of the way to get him used to how we do it. It should have been happening from day one this year. No reason a non-center should ever take a PK faceoff for us at this point with Sutter, Jokinen, Vitale and eventually Sid in the line-up.

Even though I paid little attention to Saturday's game, I did notice Joe V. out on the pk. Maybe that's a sign of things to come.

Fact is, any monkey can be taught to kill penalties. Fedetenko is now a pk guy, and using that as a reason to keep a guy like Glass in the lineup is just dumb.

 

[Crafton]

I don't think it's that laughable. He has consistently produced the past 2 seasons at around the same numbers, and his numbers have never dipped. It's not like he's on a hot spell or something in the dot. No, he's not in Bergeron's class, or even Crosby or Toews class, but I think that's mainly because he hasn't had the longevity yet. Not a doubt in my mind he could be talked about in the same breath as some of this leagues best faceoff specialists if he could be on the roster as an every day player.

he certainly has displayed the potential to be a premier face-off guy. and he's acquitted himself quite nicely while he's been in the line-up. i'm a full-fledged member of the 'cult of Vitale' but i'm just not comfortable calling him the 'best face-off man in the league' in order to bolster the argument that he should be in the every-day line-up. that's my only point on this subject.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I hate to keep on talking about Vitale in a negative way, I like the guy as a 4th line center, But i don't want to see him as a 4th line winger, I dunno how effective he would be as a winger and i think we got better options as a 4th line winger.

 

[JTG]

I hate to keep on talking about Vitale in a negative way, I like the guy as a 4th line center, But i don't want to see him as a 4th line winger, I dunno how effective he would be as a winger and i think we got better options as a 4th line winger.

Why does Vitale have to play wing on the 4th line?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Why does Vitale have to play wing on the 4th line?

Because Crosby, Malkin, Jokinen and Sutter are all better centers than he is. Only way he is playing 4C is if Jokinen gets bumped to wing.

 

[JTG]

I wouldn't even consider making Jokinen a full time center here. Wouldn't even cross my mind for a split second.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I wouldn't even consider making Jokinen a full time center here. Wouldn't even cross my mind for a split second.

why? He's great at faceoffs and we have plenty of good wings. I know wings can take faceoffs, but still.

 

[steveg]

Yes, But i don't see the point of putting Vitale on the 4th line with Jokinen its not like Jokinen needs any help taking faceoffs.

Gotcha. My bad. I mis-read your post. You were arguing that you don't need Vitale on a line with Jokinen...which I agree. When you said "playing Vitale as a wing on the 4th line takes away his biggest strength," I didn't realize you assumed Jokinen would be the center on that line.

My point was Jokinen playing LW on Geno's line -- he could then (as a wing), take Geno's draws -- and then Vitale (instead of Jokinen) could be slotted on the 4th line -- EITHER as a wing (with Adams at center, taking ADAMS' draws), OR at center. Either way, that would put all of our best faceoff guys in the lineup, one per line. To me, that's a better option that Jokinen centering a line with Glass and Adams (with Vitale on the bench).

 

[Ogrezilla]

Gotcha. My bad. I mis-read your post. You were arguing that you don't need Vitale on a line with Jokinen...which I agree. When you said "playing Vitale as a wing on the 4th line takes away his biggest strength," I didn't realize you assumed Jokinen would be the center on that line.

My point was Jokinen playing LW on Geno's line -- he could then (as a wing), take Geno's draws -- and then Vitale (instead of Jokinen) could be slotted on the 4th line -- EITHER as a wing (with Adams at center, taking ADAMS' draws), OR at center. Either way, that would put all of our best faceoff guys in the lineup, one per line. To me, that's a better option that Jokinen centering a line with Glass and Adams (with Vitale on the bench).

Jokinen taking Geno's faceoffs sounds great, but is he a good fit on that line after that? He doesn't seem like he'd be a good choice to be that line's puck retriever, which I think it needs more than faceoffs. Maybe I'm wrong about him, but he seems to be more of a skill guy than a board battler.

 

[steveg]

Jokinen taking Geno's faceoffs sounds great, but is he a good fit on that line after that? He doesn't seem like he'd be a good choice to be that line's puck retriever, which I think it needs more than faceoffs. Maybe I'm wrong about him, but he seems to be more of a skill guy than a board battler.

Yeah, Ogre, I hear you. I'm not sure, but I think he's worth a tryout there...because I'm almost sure that my FAVORITE option for LW on that line will NOT be there, come playoff time (Bennett).

Morrow may be a pretty good fit on Geno's LW, but I like him on a line with Sutter and Cookie, too. So, without Bennett in the lineup, Juicy may be a decent option to try, anyway (aside from just the faceoff thing)...not sure if he could do an adequate job of the board work, or not. IF he can, he could be similar to BB (skilled/playmaker, but ability to win board battles...)

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Different handedness, so different strong circles. Sutter and Adams are the only other right handed guys who take draws regularly and both are pretty bad.

Another thing; Having 2 good faceoff guys on a line also bumps up the percentage because the first guy is able to cheat knowing that, if he is waved out, another ace is taking the draw.

 

[Tender Rip]

Ultimately we have a situation now where we simply have so many forwards that at least one good player will sit. If Glass plays more... more than one. I can live with the former, not the latter.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yeah, Ogre, I hear you. I'm not sure, but I think he's worth a tryout there...because I'm almost sure that my FAVORITE option for LW on that line will NOT be there, come playoff time (Bennett).

Morrow may be a pretty good fit on Geno's LW, but I like him on a line with Sutter and Cookie, too. So, without Bennett in the lineup, Juicy may be a decent option to try, anyway (aside from just the faceoff thing)...not sure if he could do an adequate job of the board work, or not. IF he can, he could be similar to BB (skilled/playmaker, but ability to win board battles...)

I don't like Morrow on our shutdown line and that's exactly what Cooke and Sutter will be.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Even though I paid little attention to Saturday's game, I did notice Joe V. out on the pk. Maybe that's a sign of things to come.

Fact is, any monkey can be taught to kill penalties. Fedetenko is now a pk guy, and using that as a reason to keep a guy like Glass in the lineup is just dumb.

And we really don't need either to kill penalties. I'd put one of these 6 out there before either of them:

Kunitz
Dupuis
Sutter
Jokinen
Adams
Cooke

 

[Boocock]

Different handedness, so different strong circles. Sutter and Adams are the only other right handed guys who take draws regularly and both are pretty bad.

Sutter is actually a pretty good faceoff guy at home (54%). His faceoff stat line just plummets on the road.

 

[Darth Vitale]

Pre-game thread is up... shutting this one down.