Post-Game Talk: Plus-Minus Thread | Hurricanes 4, Penguins 1

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Just checking the standings right now.
First in the division, second in the conference.

Yep, I guess it's time to fire the coach.

This is the kind of thinking that will lead a 4th straight early exit in the POs this year.

 

[stardog]

Nothing personal but i'm tired in general of this "we made a bad team look good" I hope the players aren't telling themselves that.

Not saying that they're a bad team at all, but the poor play by our Pens made it far to easy on the Canes...
And I hope the Pens ARE telling themselves that.
We've been to easy to play against at times.

 

[stardog]

The Canes were doing this novel little thing where they passed to the point and, if the point man had a lane to shoot, he shot the puck at the net. No double clutching, no pass to the perimeter for the sake of passing, they just......shot it. With some practice and dedication maybe we can find room in our flawless game plan for this odd but effective notion.

I hear what you're saying but I have to respectfully disagree somewhat.
The Pens problems aren't related to offense as much as preventing offense IMO.
Yes its good to get a shot on net but it isn't the be all and end all (see Kennedy, Tyler).
The Canes goals came from behind the net and came from careless play by our coverage. So while I agree that getting pucks on net is good, I also think that it is relative and sometimes the smart play is dumping it back down the boards, or not shooting the puck for the sake of shooting the puck when there is no shot to be made (ie high probability of a blocked shot leading to even more problems).

 

[sovietsanta87]

This is the kind of thinking that will lead a 4th straight early exit in the POs this year.

Not to mention if the Pens were playing in the Northeast division, they would be tied for 4th in the division and sixth in the east.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Not to mention if the Pens were playing in the Northeast division, they would be tied for 4th in the division and sixth in the east.

True but if we were in the Southeast we would have already clinched

 

[Slabber Chops]

I just miss those good ol' days when we would pin the opposition in their zone for shift after shift after shift. If they did get out, it was straight back down there.

At the time of the two finals visits, it was very Wing-like hockey. I see a couple of shifts here and there of that per game nowdays. For a team with skill, they certainly don't appear to have possession as much as their opponents nowdays.

 

[Ogrezilla]

+ I fell asleep about halfway through the game

 

[Tender Rip]

This board can debate all of DB shortcomings, but his Achilles heel is that he refuses to make his vets accountable. That is something that can be corrected quite easily, if he has the stones to change.

We agree on a lot on the accountability issue. Likely less so when it comes to how off (or not) Bylsma is systems wise.

However, what I wanted to comment on was that I very much disagree that this weakness is one that can be changed 'quite easily'.
A personality change is never easy, and becoming a disciplinarian is not a switch you can just flick. Less so within the same organization (not just hockey, works like that in any job setting) that you have previously been known as rather lax/laid back.

Therrien was a somewhat manic hardass from his junior coaching days and to the day he was let go from the Pens. From what I can read about Montreal now, he seems to have the same demands as always, but also to have mellowed somewhat. He has also adjusted somewhat in terms of the hockey being played, but of course he also has a different group of players than before.
As for personality, he has also had a couple of years to reflect on what got him fired from his first two NHL gigs. This matters.

Bylsma is a young coach still. Question for me is, as said many times before, if the Pens in the prime of Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin is where and when he should be developing as a coach. For me, I think if we are in year four and we are talking about the same issues we did 2½ years ago, with no indication that anything is changing as regards the biggests warts.... no, that is not the case.

 

[Ogrezilla]

We agree on a lot on the accountability issue. Likely less so when it comes to how off (or not) Bylsma is systems wise.

However, what I wanted to comment on was that I very much disagree that this weakness is one that can be changed 'quite easily'.
A personality change is never easy, and becoming a disciplinarian is not a switch you can just flick. Less so within the same organization (not just hockey, works like that in any job setting) that you have previously been known as rather lax/laid back.

As a teacher, I very much agree with this. From one year to the next I could completely change my personality because I'd have new kids. But to try to change that with the same group of people is very difficult. Its not impossible, but I can almost guarantee that it would make the situation worse before it makes it better while the players and coach go through an ugly transition period of feeling each other out.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

We agree on a lot on the accountability issue. Likely less so when it comes to how off (or not) Bylsma is systems wise.

However, what I wanted to comment on was that I very much disagree that this weakness is one that can be changed 'quite easily'.
A personality change is never easy, and becoming a disciplinarian is not a switch you can just flick. Less so within the same organization (not just hockey, works like that in any job setting) that you have previously been known as rather lax/laid back.

Therrien was a somewhat manic hardass from his junior coaching days and to the day he was let go from the Pens. From what I can read about Montreal now, he seems to have the same demands as always, but also to have mellowed somewhat. He has also adjusted somewhat in terms of the hockey being played, but of course he also has a different group of players than before.
As for personality, he has also had a couple of years to reflect on what got him fired from his first two NHL gigs. This matters.

Ya maybe I shouldn't have said "very easy", but again in comparison to someone who is incompetent, it really is a much easier transition by far.

When I was younger I coached in a youth Summer league during the offseason. The first two years I had a rep as the fun coach who even the kids in the upper leagues wanted to play for. I made it fun for the kids and was lucky enough to draft kids who listened and did what I told them.

In my third season I was approached by the chairman to draft two kids as a personal favor... He knew the parents and no other coaches wanted to deal with these two kids... I had to think it over because when I went to scout both of them, it was.... brutal.

The first kid, Evan, would skate in a circle (literally) with his head down on purpose while everyone skated by him. The other kid, Earl, was ultra talented but he had a huge attitude and lipped off to his teammates, coaches, refs and the other team.

I decided to draft them and I thought I would have trouble being the coach who cracked the whip, but I found the transition easy. Evan was easy to discipline, since no one had benched him before. Once I benched him, he suddenly learned how to skate and play defense (a miracle, right?).

Earl was the most abrasive kid I had ever met, though. He didn't pass, play defense and he took ultra long shifts. He had a huge attitude and would ream out his teammates to a degree that pissed me off big time. However, benching him for a few shifts didn't get me anywhere, no matter how much I tried to counsel him on being a team player.

The kid simply didn't learn, but I finally made him sit for an entire game. He threw a hissy fit and left the rink. I talked to his mom and said this was what was best for him and she of course didn't agree, so I had to deal with his incessant whining and her attitude as well.

He returned the next game with the same bad attitude, so I benched him again. I had to do this several times before the message sunk in all while fending off his mother and getting the chairman involved with getting her to realize her son had self destructive behavior.

Eventually, he learned that if you aren't playing for the team, you aren't playing. Over time he became a model teammate and lead us to the championship series, but we lost. Instead of blaming his teammates like he would of done earlier, he blamed himself and comforted the other kids. It was a complete 180.

I drafted him the next season as well and we became really close, until I moved up here.

As I said, I found the transition of being the fun to play for coach, to being a disciplinarian easy. Even when Earl said he hated me and other garbage, I knew what I was trying to teach him was the right thing.

Bylsma is a young coach still. Question for me is, as said many times before, if the Pens in the prime of Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin is where and when he should be developing as a coach. For me, I think if we are in year four and we are talking about the same issues we did 2½ years ago, with no indication that anything is changing as regards the biggests warts.... no, that is not the case.

I think we all get so caught up in what we want/think, we miss the obvious: Shero is a very patient man and DB won him a cup.

So DB is going to be given a ton of rope to hang himself with. I think he has the potential to be a very good coach, but people don't always fulfill their potential.

As I said, he can become a disciplinarian if he wants. It may not be as easy for him as it was for me, (obviously he is in a professional setting). However, it is very possible to make that change.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I hear what you're saying but I have to respectfully disagree somewhat.
The Pens problems aren't related to offense as much as preventing offense IMO.
Yes its good to get a shot on net but it isn't the be all and end all (see Kennedy, Tyler).
The Canes goals came from behind the net and came from careless play by our coverage. So while I agree that getting pucks on net is good, I also think that it is relative and sometimes the smart play is dumping it back down the boards, or not shooting the puck for the sake of shooting the puck when there is no shot to be made (ie high probability of a blocked shot leading to even more problems).

You're right it's certainly a lot about defense and discipline right now. Make no mistake, I absolutely loathe the "SHOOOOOT!" people at the games, but I think the key phrase in my comment was "when they have a lane to shoot." We pass up far too many shots from the points when there is a clear lane.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Jig, I think you are talking about a VERY different situation. You changed your style while getting new players. That isn't that hard. Changing style with the same players is a MUCH different thing. And not even with an offseason to transition. Especially when some of them literally know more than you do about hockey.

 

[JQR]

You're right it's certainly a lot about defense and discipline right now. Make no mistake, I absolutely loathe the "SHOOOOOT!" people at the games, but I think the key phrase in my comment was "when they have a lane to shoot." We pass up far too many shots from the points when there is a clear lane.

This is one of the most frustrating things to watch. Why take the open shot when you can pass it through traffic? Absolutely infuriating.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Jig, I think you are talking about a VERY different situation. You changed your style while getting new players. That isn't that hard. Changing style with the same players is a MUCH different thing. And not even with an offseason to transition. Especially when some of them literally know more than you do about hockey.

Not really. I don't see the difference in how much closer DB is with his players than I was with Earl. Looking in a twelve year old's eyes and telling him he has to sit, isn't much fun. However, it was what was best for him and his teammates. I didn't hesitate or get wishy washy about it or find the situation so overbearing that I couldn't bring myself to do it.

Like I said I became really close to Earl and even brought him to play pickup with my friends a number of times and I gave him a ton of my equipment, spend countless hours hanging with him after practice showing him advanced things, etc.

He was, without a doubt my favorite kid I ever coached. He didn't have a father and I spent a ton of time just talking and listening to him and why he was so angry all of the time, etc.

All that said, I coached him for another two seasons and still had to bench him several times each season. He was a good teammate but he still lipped off to the refs, other coaches, other players and would take selfish penalties that hurt the team.

He came a long way that first year.. A really long way... But I wasn't a miracle worker and couldn't cure his anger issues completely. I wasn't a shrink... Just a coach who had endless patience with him and I was trying to teach him how to be a more responsible hockey player. However, he was still just a 12 year old kid who didn't always have the capacity to control his anger.

I stopped coaching after our third season together and over time lost contact with him. Maybe a year or so before I moved, I saw him at the rink and he was maybe 18 at the time. He told me that I made a huge difference in his life and he had won a division 3 scholarship. It felt good to hear, even though I think another coach would of come along at some point and done the same stuff I did, teaching him about respect and discipline.

People are just giving DB excuses for not being able to crack the whip. It can be done, and it is a lot easier for him to basically grow some stones, than it is for an incompetent coach to learn the important nuances of the game.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Not really. I don't see the difference in how much closer DB is with his players than I was with Earl. Looking in a twelve year old's eyes and telling him he has to sit, isn't much fun. However, it was what was best for him and his teammates. I didn't hesitate or get wishy washy about it or find the situation so overbearing that I couldn't bring myself to do it.

Like I said I became really close to Earl and even brought him to play pickup with my friends a number of times and I gave him a ton of my equipment, spend countless hours hanging with him after practice showing him advanced things, etc.

He was, without a doubt my favorite kid I ever coached. He didn't have a father and I spent a ton of time just talking and listening to him and why he was so angry all of the time, etc.

All that said, I coached him for another two seasons and still had to bench him several times each season. He was a good teammate but he still lipped off to the refs, other coaches, other players and would take selfish penalties that hurt the team.

He came a long way that first year.. A really long way... But I wasn't a miracle worker and couldn't cure his anger issues completely. I wasn't a shrink... Just a coach who had endless patience with him and I was trying to teach him how to be a more responsible hockey player. However, he was still just a 12 year old kid who didn't always have the capacity to control his anger.

I stopped coaching after our third season together and over time lost contact with him. Maybe a year or so before I moved, I saw him at the rink and he was maybe 18 at the time. He told me that I made a huge difference in his life and he had won a division 3 scholarship. It felt good to hear, even though I think another coach would of come along at some point and done the same stuff I did, teaching him about respect and discipline.

People are just giving DB excuses for not being able to crack the whip. It can be done, and it is a lot easier for him to basically grow some stones, than it is for an incompetent coach to learn the important nuances of the game.

I'm not saying its any harder to actually do it, but its harder to get the players to buy into it. Not impossible, but harder.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I'm not saying its any harder to actually do it, but its harder to get the players to buy into it. Not impossible, but harder.

Well if you don't get them to buy into it, you won't have a job soon anyway. This team will crash and burn if they stay on this path and DB will be the sacrificial lamb. He is a bright guy, he has to know that.

If DB gets fired or resigns, I'm 99% sure the next coach will be a disciplinarian and make these guys accountable. So a wise player would realize its better to deal with the guy you know and like, than the devil you don't know (who may take your job away permanently).