Players outscoring their regular season pace

[Canadiens1958]

Interesting

Sure, to get some significant names, here is a list of all players with at least 150 playoff games. As can be seen, this list is quite misleading for the reason mentioned previously. Messier spent most of his playoff games in his prime, while Trottier had the two cup runs as a role player with the Pens that really lowers his number.

| Name| GP| Pts| PPG | PostGP | PostPts | PostPPG | Difference
1. | Mark Messier | 1756 | 1887 | 1.07 | 236 | 295 | 1.25 | 0.18
2. | Chris Pronger | 1104 | 661 | 0.60 | 170 | 120 | 0.71 | 0.11
3. | Doug Gilmour | 1474 | 1414 | 0.96 | 182 | 188 | 1.03 | 0.07
4. | Jari Kurri | 1251 | 1398 | 1.12 | 200 | 233 | 1.16 | 0.05
5. | Claude Lemieux | 1215 | 786 | 0.65 | 234 | 157 | 0.67 | 0.02
6. | Brian Rafalski | 770 | 467 | 0.61 | 154 | 97 | 0.63 | 0.02
7. | Charlie Huddy | 1017 | 453 | 0.45 | 183 | 85 | 0.46 | 0.02
8. | Sergei Fedorov | 1248 | 1179 | 0.94 | 183 | 176 | 0.96 | 0.02
9. | Al MacInnis | 1416 | 1274 | 0.90 | 177 | 160 | 0.90 | 0.00
10. | Tomas Holmstrom | 879 | 469 | 0.53 | 164 | 88 | 0.54 | 0.00
11. | Jean Beliveau | 1125 | 1219 | 1.08 | 162 | 176 | 1.09 | 0.00
12. | Sergei Zubov | 1068 | 771 | 0.72 | 164 | 117 | 0.71 | -0.01
13. | Esa Tikkanen | 877 | 630 | 0.72 | 186 | 132 | 0.71 | -0.01
14. | Gordie Roberts | 1097 | 420 | 0.38 | 153 | 57 | 0.37 | -0.01
15. | Ken Daneyko | 1283 | 178 | 0.14 | 175 | 22 | 0.13 | -0.01
16. | Brian Skrudland | 881 | 343 | 0.39 | 164 | 61 | 0.37 | -0.02
17. | Craig Ludwig | 1256 | 222 | 0.18 | 177 | 28 | 0.16 | -0.02
18. | Glenn Anderson | 1129 | 1099 | 0.97 | 225 | 214 | 0.95 | -0.02
19. | Adam Foote | 1107 | 300 | 0.27 | 170 | 42 | 0.25 | -0.02
20. | Eric Desjardins | 1143 | 575 | 0.50 | 168 | 80 | 0.48 | -0.03
21. | Gordie Howe | 1767 | 1850 | 1.05 | 157 | 160 | 1.02 | -0.03
22. | Brad Park | 1113 | 896 | 0.81 | 161 | 125 | 0.78 | -0.03
23. | Bob Gainey | 1160 | 501 | 0.43 | 182 | 73 | 0.40 | -0.03
24. | Darryl Sydor | 1291 | 507 | 0.39 | 155 | 56 | 0.36 | -0.03
25. | Nicklas Lidstrom | 1412 | 1046 | 0.74 | 247 | 175 | 0.71 | -0.03
26. | Chris Chelios | 1651 | 948 | 0.57 | 266 | 144 | 0.54 | -0.03
27. | Bob Nystrom | 900 | 513 | 0.57 | 157 | 83 | 0.53 | -0.04
28. | Larry Murphy | 1615 | 1216 | 0.75 | 215 | 152 | 0.71 | -0.05
29. | Scott Stevens | 1635 | 908 | 0.56 | 233 | 118 | 0.51 | -0.05
30. | Igor Larionov | 921 | 644 | 0.70 | 150 | 97 | 0.65 | -0.05
31. | Jamie Macoun | 1128 | 358 | 0.32 | 159 | 42 | 0.26 | -0.05
32. | Larry Robinson | 1384 | 958 | 0.69 | 227 | 144 | 0.63 | -0.06
33. | Kirk Maltby | 1072 | 260 | 0.24 | 169 | 31 | 0.18 | -0.06
34. | Glen Wesley | 1457 | 537 | 0.37 | 169 | 52 | 0.31 | -0.06
35. | Brian Propp | 1016 | 1004 | 0.99 | 160 | 148 | 0.93 | -0.06
36. | Geoff Courtnall | 1048 | 799 | 0.76 | 156 | 109 | 0.70 | -0.06
37. | Red Kelly | 1316 | 823 | 0.63 | 164 | 92 | 0.56 | -0.06
38. | Mike Keane | 1161 | 470 | 0.40 | 220 | 74 | 0.34 | -0.07
39. | Jean-Guy Talbot | 1056 | 285 | 0.27 | 150 | 30 | 0.20 | -0.07
40. | Kevin Lowe | 1254 | 431 | 0.34 | 214 | 58 | 0.27 | -0.07
41. | Paul Coffey | 1409 | 1531 | 1.09 | 194 | 196 | 1.01 | -0.08
42. | Stephane Yelle | 991 | 265 | 0.27 | 171 | 32 | 0.19 | -0.08
43. | Jimmy Roberts | 1006 | 320 | 0.32 | 153 | 36 | 0.24 | -0.08
44. | Denis Savard | 1196 | 1338 | 1.12 | 169 | 175 | 1.04 | -0.08
45. | Stan Mikita | 1394 | 1467 | 1.05 | 155 | 150 | 0.97 | -0.08
46. | Wayne Gretzky | 1487 | 2857 | 1.92 | 208 | 382 | 1.84 | -0.08
47. | Dale Hunter | 1407 | 1020 | 0.72 | 186 | 118 | 0.63 | -0.09
48. | Bobby Smith | 1077 | 1036 | 0.96 | 184 | 160 | 0.87 | -0.09
49. | Joe Sakic | 1378 | 1641 | 1.19 | 172 | 188 | 1.09 | -0.10
50. | Mike Modano | 1459 | 1359 | 0.93 | 174 | 145 | 0.83 | -0.10
51. | Darren McCarty | 758 | 288 | 0.38 | 174 | 49 | 0.28 | -0.10
52. | Rod Brind'Amour | 1484 | 1184 | 0.80 | 159 | 111 | 0.70 | -0.10
53. | Jeremy Roenick | 1363 | 1216 | 0.89 | 154 | 122 | 0.79 | -0.10
54. | Guy Carbonneau | 1318 | 663 | 0.50 | 231 | 93 | 0.40 | -0.10
55. | Scott Niedermayer | 1263 | 740 | 0.59 | 202 | 98 | 0.49 | -0.10
56. | Adam Oates | 1337 | 1420 | 1.06 | 163 | 156 | 0.96 | -0.11
57. | Denis Potvin | 1060 | 1052 | 0.99 | 185 | 164 | 0.89 | -0.11
58. | Duane Sutter | 731 | 342 | 0.47 | 161 | 58 | 0.36 | -0.11
59. | Kris Draper | 1110 | 353 | 0.32 | 214 | 45 | 0.21 | -0.11
60. | Henri Richard | 1256 | 1046 | 0.83 | 180 | 129 | 0.72 | -0.12
61. | Peter Forsberg | 706 | 885 | 1.25 | 151 | 171 | 1.13 | -0.12
62. | Mark Recchi | 1571 | 1485 | 0.95 | 164 | 133 | 0.81 | -0.13
63. | Raymond Bourque | 1612 | 1579 | 0.98 | 214 | 180 | 0.84 | -0.14
64. | Craig MacTavish | 1093 | 480 | 0.44 | 193 | 58 | 0.30 | -0.14
65. | Steve Thomas | 1235 | 933 | 0.76 | 174 | 107 | 0.61 | -0.14
66. | John Tonelli | 1028 | 836 | 0.81 | 172 | 115 | 0.67 | -0.14
67. | Clark Gillies | 958 | 697 | 0.73 | 164 | 94 | 0.57 | -0.15
68. | Brett Hull | 1269 | 1391 | 1.10 | 202 | 190 | 0.94 | -0.16
69. | Brendan Shanahan | 1524 | 1354 | 0.89 | 184 | 134 | 0.73 | -0.16
70. | Joe Nieuwendyk | 1257 | 1126 | 0.90 | 158 | 116 | 0.73 | -0.16
71. | Luc Robitaille | 1431 | 1394 | 0.97 | 159 | 127 | 0.80 | -0.18
72. | Jaromir Jagr | 1273 | 1599 | 1.26 | 169 | 181 | 1.07 | -0.19
73. | Ron Francis | 1731 | 1798 | 1.04 | 171 | 143 | 0.84 | -0.20
74. | Steve Yzerman | 1514 | 1755 | 1.16 | 196 | 185 | 0.94 | -0.22
75. | Dave Andreychuk | 1639 | 1338 | 0.82 | 162 | 97 | 0.60 | -0.22
76. | John LeClair | 967 | 819 | 0.85 | 154 | 89 | 0.58 | -0.27
77. | Bryan Trottier | 1279 | 1425 | 1.11 | 221 | 184 | 0.83 | -0.28

Oh, and Mario has a PPG of 1.88 and a postPPG of 1.61 for a difference of -0.28 (rounded) in 107 playoff games.

Interesting but flawed in two areas. As mentioned previously non- playoff seasons should be factored out since no playoff numbers were generated. That would change the Lemieux numbers and the Howe numbers to start.

The second flaw is that playoff hockey is about match-ups and the net result. The great defensive players should not be penalized. Example Bob Gainey may have had a slight drop in his PPG but the elite RWs that he was assigned to cover - Rick Middleton, Mike Bossy to name a few had much greater drops in the games they played against the Canadiens with Gainey checking them.A rating that does not account for or describe the defensive trade-off is seriously deficient.

 

[JackSlater]

Note to Jack Slater,

Trying to figure out how the Canadiens and Leafs played Bobby Hull with your various vapid suppositions, failed inferences precludes you from understanding the explanations past or future so I will stop trying since it is not worth the keystrokes..

If you do not want to respond that is fine, but really, who generally defended against Bobby Hull with the Canadiens? Provost's claim to fame was shadowing Hull. Provost is likely the best defensive frward other than Richard on those Montreal teams. It does not seem that Montreal was mostly focused on shutting down Hull's linemates and letting Hull do whatever he wanted as you suggest. As far as the general claim that teams often use the method of allowing the best players to beat them, it will take a few more sitcom theories regarding the properties of beer to convince me that your theory is correct.

If you were not around - a fact that you admitted, for the 1974-75 season to appreciate the Hart that Bobby Clarke won then you obviously were not around to see and appreciate how the Leafs and Canadiens defended against Bobby Hull.

Trying your various attempts at sophistry simply will not work.

Nope, I was definitely not around to see those series. I have seen playoff games featuring Hull's Blackhawks though thanks mostly to the NHL Network, and I've never seen teams keying on anyone other than Hull on Hull's line. The same goes for Howe on Detroit, in the 60s at least. Admittedly the sample is certainly not enough to make any definitive statements. I have seen teams shut down the lesser lines on the Blackhawks, but this never had anything to do with Hull in the first place.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Shadowing and Sophistry V

Shadowing The old throw away line from Canadiens players and coaches for years,Jacques Lemaire's tongue in cheek explanation that Boston media types amongst others bought hook, line and sinker.

Anyone who remembers the old Boston Garden recalls that the two team benches were side by side, a stride apart. At the Montreal Forum and elsewhere they were on opposite sides of the ice. In Boston this made matching lines simpler since players changing on the fly would watch for their assigned man to jump on and coming off after a shift checks would be side by side giving an image of shadowing. Didn't happen in other rinks.

The Canadiens in the fifties and sixties played an early version of the trap driven by their forechecking centers.Scotty Bowman and Jacques Lemaire, both grew up in the Canadiens system adapted the trap for their specific teams and era

Claude Provost was the RW who played with Henri Richard. His main objective was to maintain a defensive perimeter that with Richard's forechecking would delay the puck getting to Hull efficiently in the transition game.

 

[JackSlater]

Shadowing The old throw away line from Canadiens players and coaches for years,Jacques Lemaire's tongue in cheek explanation that Boston media types amongst others bought hook, line and sinker.

Anyone who remembers the old Boston Garden recalls that the two team benches were side by side, a stride apart. At the Montreal Forum and elsewhere they were on opposite sides of the ice. In Boston this made matching lines simpler since players changing on the fly would watch for their assigned man to jump on and coming off after a shift checks would be side by side giving an image of shadowing. Didn't happen in other rinks.

The Canadiens in the fifties and sixties played an early version of the trap driven by their forechecking centers.Scotty Bowman and Jacques Lemaire, both grew up in the Canadiens system adapted the trap for their specific teams and era

Claude Provost was the RW who played with Henri Richard. His main objective was to maintain a defensive perimeter that with Richard's forechecking would delay the puck getting to Hull efficiently in the transition game.

Hmmmm well I guess I'll have to decide whether to go with your account or the accounts of most other sources as to Provost vs Hull. I will also consider the opinion of the wise poster in this thread who stated that Richard's line worked to prevent efficient transition to Hull and his linemates, and not just Hull himself. Of course the latter would contradict the point about teams attempting to shut down Hull's linemates instead of Hull, but I'm sure there is an explanation. I am happy that you are here to clarify the Canadiens tongue in cheek humour as well, especially after your interpretation of the famous Buffalo Herd Theory from Cliff Clavin. In any event I'm probably not going to buy the "let the best player beat us" strategy, and will probably assess the playoff performers by what they did and not necessarily what the other players on the team did.

Relating to matnor's post, I think that Jean Beliveau is possibly the most impressive player on those lists. A lot of the players near the top played a large amount of their playoff games while in their peaks/primes, but Beliveau played a long time as a key player and was in the playoffs nearly every year. Not really surprising considering it's Beliveau, but it helps demonstrate how impressive Beliveau's entire career was.

 

[pappyline]

Hmmmm well I guess I'll have to decide whether to go with your account or the accounts of most other sources as to Provost vs Hull. I will also consider the opinion of the wise poster in this thread who stated that Richard's line worked to prevent efficient transition to Hull and his linemates, and not just Hull himself. Of course the latter would contradict the point about teams attempting to shut down Hull's linemates instead of Hull, but I'm sure there is an explanation. I am happy that you are here to clarify the Canadiens tongue in cheek humour as well, especially after your interpretation of the famous Buffalo Herd Theory from Cliff Clavin. In any event I'm probably not going to buy the "let the best player beat us" strategy, and will probably assess the playoff performers by what they did and not necessarily what the other players on the team did.

Relating to matnor's post, I think that Jean Beliveau is possibly the most impressive player on those lists. A lot of the players near the top played a large amount of their playoff games while in their peaks/primes, but Beliveau played a long time as a key player and was in the playoffs nearly every year. Not really surprising considering it's Beliveau, but it helps demonstrate how impressive Beliveau's entire career was.

Geez, I watched it. Provost definitely shadowed Hull. Thats how you stopped Chicago. They didn't have great depth. Slow down Bobby was the strategy. amazingly he still put up great playoff stats. Habs used Provost & later Houle as his shadow. Toronto used Stewart & Ellis. Detroit used Bugsy Watson. Bruins used Westfall.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Hull vs Montreal

Geez, I watched it. Provost definitely shadowed Hull. Thats how you stopped Chicago. They didn't have great depth. Slow down Bobby was the strategy. amazingly he still put up great playoff stats. Habs used Provost & later Houle as his shadow. Toronto used Stewart & Ellis. Detroit used Bugsy Watson. Bruins used Westfall.

Hull vs Montreal during the playoffs, in the O6 era, quick Hockey Summary: 28 games, 10G / 10A projects to a 25G/25A over a 70 game schedule. Hardly par or great play-off stats.

Thru 1961 in the playoffs against the Hawks it was mainly H.Richard with M.Richard or Bonin against Hull. Provost played with Goyette. 1959 Bonin lit up Chicago offensively with 7 goals in 6 games.

H. Richard missed the 1962 playoffs with a broken arm. Provost played with Goyette or Backstrom and Bobby Hull scored 4 of his 10 goals.

1965 Finals. In 4 games at the Forum, Chicago scored 2 power play goals, none by Hull.The Hawks were shut-out in the last three games in Montreal.

Be it O6 or post 1967, the common factor was Henri Richard be it with Bonin. Provost or Houle. Hull scored 6 goals(3EV/3PP) in the 19 playoff games that he played against the O6 Canadiens with a healthy Henri Richard. Bobby Hull scored 4 goals against the Canadiens in the 1962 playoffs when Henri Richard was injured and did not play but Claude Provost played. .

 

[JackSlater]

Hull vs Montreal during the playoffs, in the O6 era, quick Hockey Summary: 28 games, 10G / 10A projects to a 25G/25A over a 70 game schedule. Hardly par or great play-off stats.

So you are saying that Hull performed below his regular season level offensively when he played Montreal. Interestingly, earlier in this thread you stated that sometimes a player's stats may be inflated due to the strategy of the opposition focusing on shutting down the lesser players, and specifically mentioned Hull as having received this treatment. This seems to be a contradiction, as does the notion that the Richard line worked to prevent the puck from getting to Hull efficiently, but was really focusing on shutting his linemates down.

Thru 1961 in the playoffs against the Hawks it was mainly H.Richard with M.Richard or Bonin against Hull. Provost played with Goyette. 1959 Bonin lit up Chicago offensively with 7 goals in 6 games.

H. Richard missed the 1962 playoffs with a broken arm. Provost played with Goyette or Backstrom and Bobby Hull scored 4 of his 10 goals.

1965 Finals. In 4 games at the Forum, Chicago scored 2 power play goals, none by Hull.The Hawks were shut-out in the last three games in Montreal.

Be it O6 or post 1967, the common factor was Henri Richard be it with Bonin. Provost or Houle. Hull scored 6 goals(3EV/3PP) in the 19 playoff games that he played against the O6 Canadiens with a healthy Henri Richard. Bobby Hull scored 4 goals against the Canadiens in the 1962 playoffs when Henri Richard was injured and did not play but Claude Provost played. .

You have the beginnings of a decent case that Provost was not as effective against Hull as is often claimed. This information does not however tell us how Provost was actually used against the Hull line. The general historical canon is that that Provost's responsibility was checking Hull, and pappyline seems to believe that too. The playoff games I've seen of Hull seemed to show him getting more defensive attention from the oppostion than any of his linemates, including against Montreal and Provost. Let's see what Bobby Hull thinks.

During the playoffs of 1959, coach Rudy Pilous switched Hull to left wing. Enough said. In ensuing seasons, it was not unusual to see members of opposing teams clinging to Hull's massive frame like so many gnats, all in the name of checking The Golden Jet. Hull himself cites Eddie Westfall of the Boston Bruins, Bob Nevin of Toronto and the Rangers, and Montreal's Claude Provost as perhaps his three most effective, and respected, "shadows."

Now perhaps Bobby Hull does not understand the tongue in cheek humour of the Montreal Canadiens, but he does seem to believe that Provost actually did shadow him. If Provost shadowed Hull, and Richard worked to prevent the puck from getting to Hull in transition, I don't see how Hull's linemates were the ones that were getting the shutdown attention.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Sophistry Ad Infinitum

Getting rather tedious when someone persists in using sophistry at the expense of actual game research which would be the normal substitute for not having seen the games in the first place.

First lets be clear about wording. Intent is not a synonym for result nor is sometimes a synonym for always.

1967 semi-finals, Leafs vs Hawks. Hawks stats for the 1966-67 season and playoffs:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CBH/1967.html

Observe Bobby Hull regular season 66 games producing 80 PTS (52 G / 28A), playoffs 6 games producing 6 PTS (4G/ 2A). Line mates Mainly Phil Esposito(69Games/61 PTS) and Chico Maki(56 Games/38PTS) plus Bill Hay(36Games/20PTS).All three of the line mates played the 6 playoff games. Esposito and Maki were scorless and Hay had 1 assist while sharing time at center with the disappointing Phil Esposito. The intent of limiting Hull's line mates produced a result that was much better than expected is rather evident when compared to their regular season. That you cannot understand or appreciate how this was done stands on its own. The result was that Hull's numbers were slightly reduced from the regular season as well since he was not getting rebound or deflection assists - neither of the three scored.No purpose in trying to quantify the effort spent checking each. Recognizing the effectiveness is all that matters. The effectiveness was such that it drove Hull's numbers down from the norm insignificantly. Hull would have matched or surpassed the norm with 1 or 2 rebound or deflection assists.

Provost's role was clearly described previously in this thread and elsewhere. Use the search function. It is there for a reason. The shadowing claim - in quotation marks, The author in the same quote referred to checkers so the shadowing is tongue in cheek. No one has actually clearly defined shadowing but from the usage and lame efforts to justify the word it seems to refer to pest value as opposed to checking - evidenced the reference to Bryan Watson.As such it is a worthless effort since getting into a physical battle with the likes of a Bobby Hull or a Gordie Howe is a lost cause from the start. The key was supporting the forechecking center with an effective defensive perimeter that Provost was part of.

1959 Playoffs. Yes Pilous moved Hull from center to left wing mainly because the Montreal centers were dominating him offensively and defensively. He didn't do much better at LW. In fact he was outscored in the series by Al Arbour of all players.

 

[JackSlater]

Getting rather tedious when someone persists in using sophistry at the expense of actual game research which would be the normal substitute for not having seen the games in the first place.

Well we have certainly found some common ground at least regarding tedium. In any event, if it has come down to posting stats from a single playoff series which do not even support your initial claim (in addition to other contradictory claims) and humourously attempting to twist Bobby Hull's opinion on the matter (not to mention general historical canon), there is likely little point to continuing.

 

[WingsFan95]

Lemieux's goal scoring in the playoffs is .03 higher.

And this considering his last 4 playoff outtings ( not counting Sharks ) was abysmal.