Players angry with proposal....

[Boilers*]

Give me one frickin' reason why the bigger market teams should give a flip about the small market teams. Really. I don't give a crap if a small market team has a crappy, cheap owner who won't invest in his team and just treats it as a tax shelter.
Dont' all of these stadiums hold about the same amount of fans? Is it a large market team's fault that Mr. Tightwad small market owner cannot see the logic in putting something in so that you can get more out? I really don't see why any teams who actually draw some fans should be penalized while other teams play to half filled stadiums. Why the hell should I, as a sports fan in a larger market, have to pay the price because people in another town don't support their team? Why should my team's owner have to pay the price for some schmuck in the east not paying to keep the players that draw in the fans? If he can't afford them, bring in a partner or two. I dunno. Why the hell should we feel bad for these cheap arse owners? I say lock it out for 2 years and let a few of these small market teams die. Then there will be less roster spots and we won't have to worry about the crappy 4th line guys who really belong on the farm team grabbing and clutching the elite players. You will have teams in cities who truly deserve to have an NHL team because they draw and have owners who actually try to put a decent product on the ice AND make some money...instead of trying to make money and then not putting a product on the ice that brings them in. If you lose your team...sorry. It sucks to be you.

I say toss the whole thing. If a new league is created, tell the owners of the possible teams that you will have to be able to spend this much per season on players, tickers have to be at these prices, you have to have this much net worth so that you can pay the players what they deserve and if you don't, pound sand and get more owners or whatever. The players are the ones who puts the butts in the seats...bottom line. The owners are the dumb asses who don't get how to do things correctly and keep things within reason.

Either way, there will always be ways to exploit the system. That is the nature of business and of the law.

Oh for the love of God if the Nordiques had Lindros instead of all the rest of the superstars they traded him for you guys wouldn't have inherited a playoff ready team. Thusly wouldn't have had a big market 'cuz let's face it the fans in Colarado couldn't support the last club they had so stuff it where the sun don't shine as you don't understand anything about this debate. It's like watching a guy winning the lotto bragging about his great investment strategy making him wealthy.

 

[Pepper]

Quick question, even if the owners magically get a $40 million hard cap, what prevents Iginla from holding out ???

You need to ask that??

Very simple, it greatly limits other teams ability to make a ridiculous offer to Iginla.

So whereas in the current system Iginla knows that Rangers can pay him $11M per year, he can use that against the Flames management and sit out until they are forced to trade him to Rangers.

If there's a 40M cap, Iginla knows that Rangers most likely don't have $11M left in their payroll and even if they had, they wouldn't spend 25% of their payroll on one player. Thus he realizes that the $7M Flames are willing to pay to him is about the best he can do, he's much more likely to accept it.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Oh for the love of God if the Nordiques had Lindros instead of all the rest of the superstars they traded him for you guys wouldn't have inherited a playoff ready team.

If they had kept Lindros that team was loaded already, with Sakic, Lindros and Sundin to play center.

 

[SENSible1*]

You need to ask that??

Very simple, it greatly limits other teams ability to make a ridiculous offer to Iginla.

So whereas in the current system Iginla knows that Rangers can pay him $11M per year, he can use that against the Flames management and sit out until they are forced to trade him to Rangers.

If there's a 40M cap, Iginla knows that Rangers most likely don't have $11M left in their payroll and even if they had, they wouldn't spend 25% of their payroll on one player. Thus he realizes that the $7M Flames are willing to pay to him is about the best he can do, he's much more likely to accept it.

Obvious and frequently ignored point.

I addition, the owners can still acheive cost-certainty and allow for "franchise player" or "homegrown talent" costing less against a cap, thus making the possibility of Iginla getting his money in Calgary realistic.

Personally, I think it is fantastic that Brett Favre will be a Packer his entire career and would like to see the same thing be possible for small market NHL stars.

 

[Boilers*]

If they had kept Lindros that team was loaded already, with Sakic, Lindros and Sundin to play center.

Heh, yup but if ya wanna get technical it wasn't 'till Roy decided to be a Primma Donna and join them that they really became Stanley cup contenders. However the point remains the same another teams struggles beneifited Colorado. Recently the team has been struggling big time even with the "gift" of the two-heartless- wonders-for-the-price-of one. Heh,looks good on ya Colorado.

 

[thinkwild]

Nobody is saying anything about "fear" or "unreasonable contract demands". Nobody is passing judgment. The question put forward was "how would contracts rise back up to their old levels"?

Well, I'm showing you how.

In a year, Iginla can demand to be paid as one of the best players in the league, which he arguably is. He will have all the bargaining power on his side, and the Flames will have none. None of this 24% business will matter, because it will all be in the past, and arbitration won't be involved. It will be entirely up to what Jarome is willing to play for, and what's he's willing to do to make sure he gets what he feels he's worth. You know, that free market stuff.

If Calgary plays hardball, they *will* suffer. Let him sit for months? They'll surely miss the playoffs. Not qualify him and cutting him loose completely is hardly a solution. Trading him for some prospects? Then they're just starting all over again.

And that's how salaries rise. Players with clout apply the screws to the owners, (as is their right to do). Jarome will get a great contract in his second year, and it'll almost surely be well over the 24% cut he had to take.

And in the process, he sets a lovely comparable to be used in future arbitrations by the rest of the players.

And the problem with this is ...?

THis is the way the world works. Obviously this can happen. If Iginla is one of the best players as you say, he should be paid like it. Its clear what his value under the new system - its what they are currently paying. Calgary can obviously afford it. Iginla could hold out for $19mil a year and hold them for ransom. But obiously he wants to be paid fair comparable to the all the other players. And he can use his hold out leverage to achieve it. Why would you worry there would be a problem?

The owners could all invest $100mil on new scoreboard clocks too. Should we have a scoreboard clock cap?

 

[Boilers*]

And the problem with this is ...?

THis is the way the world works. Obviously this can happen. If Iginla is one of the best players as you say, he should be paid like it. Its clear what his value under the new system - its what they are currently paying. Calgary can obviously afford it. Iginla could hold out for $19mil a year and hold them for ransom. But obiously he wants to be paid fair comparable to the all the other players. And he can use his hold out leverage to achieve it. Why would you worry there would be a problem?

The owners could all invest $100mil on new scoreboard clocks too. Should we have a scoreboard clock cap?

Scoreboard clocks don't usually go to arbitration,use agents,or hold out in negotiations.Now,if they could just get 50 goals we'd all be set.

 

[bert]

All Calgary has to do to negotiate with Iginla is play Game 6 of the finals (0 Shots) and Game 7 (0 Shots and a tirade against Kerry Fraser's as Martin St. Louis lay bleeding on the ice).

If a guy can't show up for the two biggest games of his life... how much can he really be worth.

What a load of crap, im sure he didnt show up for anything to get his team into that position?

Give me a break.

Game 7 against the Canucks Mark Crawford, who has coached the likes of Joe Sakic, Peter Forsberg, Claude Lemieux, Patrick Roy, Markus Naslund and Todd Bertuzzi to name a few said that Iginlas performance was the best he has ever been associated with.

 

[PecaFan]

And the problem with this is ...?

The problem is this makes salaries rise beyond what can be afforded. That's how we got here in the past, and if this 24% thing goes through, that's how we'll get right back here.

Thus, the 24% reduction is not a "solution". It's a temporary rewind. It's Groundhog Day.

 

[me2]

It's Groundhog Day.

Haven't heard it put better.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

You need to ask that??

Very simple, it greatly limits other teams ability to make a ridiculous offer to Iginla.

So whereas in the current system Iginla knows that Rangers can pay him $11M per year, he can use that against the Flames management and sit out until they are forced to trade him to Rangers.

If there's a 40M cap, Iginla knows that Rangers most likely don't have $11M left in their payroll and even if they had, they wouldn't spend 25% of their payroll on one player. Thus he realizes that the $7M Flames are willing to pay to him is about the best he can do, he's much more likely to accept it.

under the old CBA i can only think of three RFA offers (sakic, fedorov and gratton). it just does happen. if NYR would have offered Iginla 11m, CGY could have matched in CDN$.

is this really a threat ? if i was the GM id tell Iginla when he has an offer from NYR, then he can play for them. until then, he cant. my offer is x amount and it will be on the table for 1 week. good night.

dr

 

[Potatoe1]

Obvious and frequently ignored point.

I addition, the owners can still acheive cost-certainty and allow for "franchise player" or "homegrown talent" costing less against a cap, thus making the possibility of Iginla getting his money in Calgary realistic.

Personally, I think it is fantastic that Brett Favre will be a Packer his entire career and would like to see the same thing be possible for small market NHL stars.

How is it "cost certianty" if there are franchise, and homegrown player exemptions?

 

[Potatoe1]

And the problem with this is ...?

THis is the way the world works. Obviously this can happen. If Iginla is one of the best players as you say, he should be paid like it. Its clear what his value under the new system - its what they are currently paying. Calgary can obviously afford it. Iginla could hold out for $19mil a year and hold them for ransom. But obiously he wants to be paid fair comparable to the all the other players. And he can use his hold out leverage to achieve it. Why would you worry there would be a problem?

Because this simply speaks to the fact that the players offer is simply a bribe to keep a status quo system.

That is prety much Peca Fans point and your actually suporting him on it.

For the record I think that with a few tweaks these issues can be fixed and the players CBA could work quite well, but there is simply no denying that there are holes in this offer some of wich will allow a quick return to status quo.

 

[colosilverado]

Heh, yup but if ya wanna get technical it wasn't 'till Roy decided to be a Primma Donna and join them that they really became Stanley cup contenders. However the point remains the same another teams struggles beneifited Colorado. Recently the team has been struggling big time even with the "gift" of the two-heartless- wonders-for-the-price-of one. Heh,looks good on ya Colorado.

I'll take our recent 2 Cups...thank you! I don't give a flip about how we had to get it...we got it. Sucks to be you!

 

[thinkwild]

Because this simply speaks to the fact that the players offer is simply a bribe to keep a status quo system.

That is prety much Peca Fans point and your actually suporting him on it.

For the record I think that with a few tweaks these issues can be fixed and the players CBA could work quite well, but there is simply no denying that there are holes in this offer some of wich will allow a quick return to status quo.

Well ok, I always said the owners are extorting the players, so if you want to call it a bribe to counter the extortion, fair enough that is just as good inflammatory words. Lets hope the real bargainers arent so flippant.

Of course its the status quo, ie marketplace for salaries not a cap. That was the whole point. This is what the players are fighting for. Arebing extorted to give up. They found a clever compromise solution that the majority of owners are going to find very difficult to reject.

Iginla could of held out last time for 11 million. All players can always hold out for 11mil. Why dont they? Because they are only asking for what they perceive to be the value the market has established for them. If the marketplace is 24% lower, Iginla is going to search for his fair marklet value, not some outlandish number out of the air because he feels like it.


If there's holes, then fix them. There's lots of small items yet to be bargained that can be used to manipulate the leverages.

But what PecaFan is suggesting is that Iginla will just hold out to get his value under the old system. But clearly he will get his value under the new system which is 24% lower. Which is pretty much what Calgary is already paying, thus they can afford him.

Of course Iginla CAN hold out for whatever want, this is what a marketplace system is, and he can even do it under a cap. But suggesting he will hold out for an unfair value demonstrates a misunderstanding of how they choose their numbers.

And of course the numbers will rise as revenues rise too. As they should.

 

[colosilverado]

Why should large markets care? Because we're the ones getting screwed by teams like yours! If the large markets have to pay out of their ass for their mistakes then I'm all for it! If anything, fold the large markets because this league is a mess and the fault lies almost all on the shoulders of the big spenders.


Yeah, fold the teams that are carrying the league. The Avs aren't near as bad as some of the other teams. You're not getting screwed by anyone other than your tight arsed owners and GMs...I already made that point.


Interesting you mentioning that - my team is small market and we know the game and support our team better than your fanbase ever could.

Really, you all know the game better than anyone who supports the Avs. You're generalization is idiotic. We also have you in average attendance since the Avs came here. So, are you saying you support your team better because your fans are sitting in a bar somewhere instead of paying to go see your beloved Oilers?

 

[Potatoe1]

But what PecaFan is suggesting is that Iginla will just hold out to get his value under the old system. But clearly he will get his value under the new system which is 24% lower. Which is pretty much what Calgary is already paying, thus they can afford him.

Of course Iginla CAN hold out for whatever want, this is what a marketplace system is, and he can even do it under a cap. But suggesting he will hold out for an unfair value demonstrates a misunderstanding of how they choose their numbers.

And of course the numbers will rise as revenues rise too. As they should.

There is a point here that you keep missing.

In the case of Iginla the 24% roll back is only good for a year. Under the CBA as offered by the players, he will force the flames to take him to arbitration this season play a year under an artificially reduced contract and then next season he will demand to be paid what he was going to demand under the current CBA.

The roll back becomes irrelevant once the flames have lost their forced arbitration rights and he is essentially back in the same position that he is in now. The fact that the rest of the league took a 24% pay cut is completely irrelevant to Jerome Iginla. And BTW once Iginla gets his salary back up to pre-roll back levels, he re-sets the market and his contract can be used as a comparable in arbitration.

BTW if you don't think that the NHLPA is well aware of these "holes" in their offer you are very naive.

 

[GirardIsStupid]

lol, fold the large market teams? do that and the league's done. hey, i understand your jealousy, but don't blame colorado for having what it takes to keep their own players. if anything, small market teams should be patting them on the back for trying to keep inflation minimal (he he he). don't believe me? well sakic and blake currently make 9 mill per season. what do you think they woulda fetched if they were free agents. at least 12 mill each in my opinion. for the record, id also like to see some small market teams have the opportunity to retain their best players. yet, this moaning and groaning by some oilers' fans won't make me anymore empathic...that's for sure.

 

[thinkwild]

There is a point here that you keep missing.

In the case of Iginla the 24% roll back is only good for a year. Under the CBA as offered by the players, he will force the flames to take him to arbitration this season play a year under an artificially reduced contract and then next season he will demand to be paid what he was going to demand under the current CBA.

The roll back becomes irrelevant once the flames have lost their forced arbitration rights and he is essentially back in the same position that he is in now. The fact that the rest of the league took a 24% pay cut is completely irrelevant to Jerome Iginla. And BTW once Iginla gets his salary back up to pre-roll back levels, he re-sets the market and his contract can be used as a comparable in arbitration.

BTW if you don't think that the NHLPA is well aware of these "holes" in their offer you are very naive.

Im not saying there are no holes. And im not misunderstanding, Yes, after Iginla has forced them to use their arbitration, he can now hold for $87Million a year. And the Flames will be held for ransom. Yes this is true, I agree.

What I am saying is that he will seek his fair value in the market which is established at a level 24% lower. he will ask to be the best paid player. If the current best paid player is getting $7mil, Iginla can hold out for $27Mil yes. What will he likely do though.

If his agents thinks that owners have been demonstarting through their spending habits they have more money, then they will attempt to get what is a fair value. And the owners will pay it if they agree. And it will be Calgary setting the bar for the top player.

The 24% is not only good for a year. It is the foundation for all comparables. If owners continually bid these up, it is because they can afford to.

I really cant see why this is so dificult to get.

Yes Kovalchuk could hold for $17mil a year. If this is your worry, then Im sure the players will be accomodating in alleviating it

Yes I know, you are going to say you never picked outlandish numbers. Well just where did you get the number you think Iginla will ask for from?

 

[Potatoe1]

Im not saying there are no holes. And im not misunderstanding, Yes, after Iginla has forced them to use their arbitration, he can now hold for $87Million a year. And the Flames will be held for ransom. Yes this is true, I agree.

What I am saying is that he will seek his fair value in the market which is established at a level 24% lower. he will ask to be the best paid player. If the current best paid player is getting $7mil, Iginla can hold out for $27Mil yes. What will he likely do though.

If his agents thinks that owners have been demonstarting through their spending habits they have more money, then they will attempt to get what is a fair value. And the owners will pay it if they agree. And it will be Calgary setting the bar for the top player.

The 24% is not only good for a year. It is the foundation for all comparables. If owners continually bid these up, it is because they can afford to.

I really cant see why this is so dificult to get.

You still aren't getting it.

The 24% does not "re-set" the market, it creates a false market.

Once Iginla has removed the owners right to take him to arbitration he is free to ask for the same amount that he would have asked for under the current CBA.

The 24% roll back becomes irrelevant, to Iginla, he doesn't care about the false market that the players created to get back on the Ice, he care's about the real market and he will use all of his leverage to get himself the best deal possible.

I think Iginla could get 7 to 7.5 million from Calgary right now. The Flames can take him to arbitration and force him into a deal for 5.5. Then next season Iginla will say, "now I would like my 7.5 million please" and the Flames will most certainly pay it.

They would have paid it this year so they will pay it next year too.

Getting this yet?

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

You still aren't getting it.

The 24% does not "re-set" the market, it creates a false market.

Once Iginla has removed the owners right to take him to arbitration he is free to ask for the same amount that he would have asked for under the current CBA.

The 24% roll back becomes irrelevant, to Iginla, he doesn't care about the false market that the players created to get back on the Ice, he care's about the real market and he will use all of his leverage to get himself the best deal possible.

I think Iginla could get 7 to 7.5 million from Calgary right now. The Flames can take him to arbitration and force him into a deal for 5.5. Then next season Iginla will say, "now I would like my 7.5 million please" and the Flames will most certainly pay it.

They would have paid it this year so they will pay it next year too.

Getting this yet?

maybe some of us dont see anything wrong with Iginla not only having the leverage to get this much money, but also that he asks for it.

whats wrong with Iginla being paid 7.5m again ?

dr

 

[thinkwild]

You still aren't getting it.

The 24% does not "re-set" the market, it creates a false market.

Once Iginla has removed the owners right to take him to arbitration he is free to ask for the same amount that he would have asked for under the current CBA.

The 24% roll back becomes irrelevant, to Iginla, he doesn't care about the false market that the players created to get back on the Ice, he care's about the real market and he will use all of his leverage to get himself the best deal possible.

I think Iginla could get 7 to 7.5 million from Calgary right now. The Flames can take him to arbitration and force him into a deal for 5.5. Then next season Iginla will say, "now I would like my 7.5 million please" and the Flames will most certainly pay it.

They would have paid it this year so they will pay it next year too.

Getting this yet?

Well yes I agree. He will be asking for his new rate in the new market. One that is defined by the current crop of comparables. If he wishes to holdout because he thinks the current value of $7mil for him is a false value premised on phony Levitt numbers, then he will hold out. And if Calgary cant afford to pay him they wont. And they will be in a negotiation pickle. Thats what negotiating your value in a marketplace is all about. If Calgary was smart, they would offer him a long term contract at fair value so they only need to use the threat once.

I agree, this is what the players are fighting to preserve, and what can happen. What Im saying is I dont think Calgary has anything to worry about. Why would they not pay the $7.5 mil Iginla could command. A team running a high payroll will have to spend even more to get him for the same price.

There is a reasonable marketplace created. Why is spiralling out of control in a frenzied spending orgy not only expected but accepted? Yes the marketplace will move up to its proper value. Iginla will negotiate his ne wmarket value. Why should Calgary fans be afraid of this anymore? They are pretty much already paying that for him.

 

[me2]

I think Iginla could get 7 to 7.5 million from Calgary right now. The Flames can take him to arbitration and force him into a deal for 5.5. Then next season Iginla will say, "now I would like my 7.5 million please" and the Flames will most certainly pay it.

They would have paid it this year so they will pay it next year too.

Getting this yet?

Not only they but they've now reset the arbitration payscale from $5.5m back to $7.5m. How long did that take, 1 maybe 2 years?

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Not only they but they've now reset the arbitration payscale from $5.5m back to $7.5m. How long did that take, 1 maybe 2 years?

name 5 players who could succesfully use Jarome Iginla as a comparable in arbitration and then examine if those players would not get that regardless.

dr

 

[jacketracket*]

Interesting question brought up in an editorial in the sports section of today's local rag.

Why would the NHLPA offer a one-time rollback of over $600 million on salaries if they honestly believed that the owners were fudging about the financial losses they claim to have suffered