Player Discussion: Olli "Captain" Juolevi | II

[krutovsdonut]

people need to define bpa better.

if you just draft the most nhl ready player in the top ten you will nearly always take a forward because very few dmen are as clearly nhl ready at draft date.

but sometimes you take a shot at a defenceman because the upside offsets the higher risk.

and very occasionally you take goalie for the same reason.

jonathan huberdeau was drafted right ahead of adam larsen in 2011. he was on a 52 point paces as a rookie in 48 games. larsen was a near bust for 3 years. assuming huberdeau was healthy, would you trade him straight across for larsen and would the oilers be interested?

 

[CanaFan]

a lot of high draft pick forwards do. for example

gagner got 49
yakupov was on a 52 point pace in the lock out season
rnh got 52

That's 3. Got enough to make it convincing?

 

[CanaFan]

people need to define bpa better.

if you just draft the most nhl ready player in the top ten you will nearly always take a forward because very few dmen are as clearly nhl ready at draft date.

but sometimes you take a shot at a defenceman because the upside offsets the higher risk.

and very occasionally you take goalie for the same reason.

jonathan huberdeau was drafted right ahead of adam larsen in 2011. he was on a 52 point paces as a rookie in 48 games. larsen was a near bust for 3 years. assuming huberdeau was healthy, would you trade him straight across for larsen and would the oilers be interested?

Well seeing as how Edmonton specifically sought out Larsson to shore up a weak defense, probably not. Better question is would NJ have traded Larsson for Huberdeau had Hall never been offered? Who can say but I think they might have.

*Also I've never heard of prioritizing a player just because they might make the NHL faster. Hence why you hear the term "best player available" ad naseum every time the draft approaches. No ever says "fastest to NHL".

 

[KingOfTheES]

a lot of high draft pick forwards do. for example

gagner got 49
yakupov was on a 52 point pace in the lock out season
rnh got 52

If a lot do why does your list contain 2 that didn't?

Modern NHL (2000+):

Sidney Crosby - 102
Jeff Skinner - 63
Nathan MacKinnon - 63
Matt Duchene - 55
Ryan Nugent-Hopkins - 52
Ilya Kovalchuk - 51

Like usual you are just talking out your donkey.

 

[Numba9]

If a lot do why does your list contain 2 that didn't?

Modern NHL (2000+):

Sidney Crosby - 102
Jeff Skinner - 63
Nathan MacKinnon - 63
Matt Duchene - 55
Ryan Nugent-Hopkins - 52
Ilya Kovalchuk - 51

Like usual you are just talking out your donkey.

Actually he has a point, sorry you're the only one with a donkey....here are another two:

Matt Read
RNH

Both players had decent rookie seasons and never got better. That literally took me 1 min to find. There are many more examples. Tkachuk is severely overrated here, its unbelievable. Trust me he is going to be one of the 5 we just listed. If you don't believe me, go look at the highlights of his points....he doesn't drive his line he benefits from great plays from his teammates, basically the same as in junior.

 

[RobertKron]

Actually he has a point, sorry you're the only one with a donkey....here are another two:

Matt Read
RNH

Both players had decent rookie seasons and never got better. That literally took me 1 min to find. There are many more examples. Tkachuk is severely overrated here, its unbelievable. Trust me he is going to be one of the 5 we just listed. If you don't believe me, go look at the highlights of his points....he doesn't drive his line he benefits from great plays from his teammates, basically the same as in junior.

Matt Read was 25.

 

[CanaFan]

Actually he has a point, sorry you're the only one with a donkey....here are another two:

Matt Read
RNH

Both players had decent rookie seasons and never got better. That literally took me 1 min to find. There are many more examples. Tkachuk is severely overrated here, its unbelievable. Trust me he is going to be one of the 5 we just listed. If you don't believe me, go look at the highlights of his points....he doesn't drive his line he benefits from great plays from his teammates, basically the same as in junior.

Maybe you should have taken your time. Matt Read was 25 freakin years old lol

 

[CanaFan]

And enough of this "he doesn't drive plays" fiction. We've all seen him play, it isn't possible to fool people with this drivel anymore.

 

[Numba9]

Matt Read was 25.

So? He's just another example of how you can't assume a player is going to get better after a decent regular season. It's stupid to declare Tkachuk "An elite first line winger" after an ok rookie season and then declare a Juolevi a second pairing defenceman when he hasn't even played an NHL game.

 

[Numba9]

Maybe you should have taken your time. Matt Read was 25 freakin years old lol

So? Please oh wise one, please tell me why it matters?

 

[KingOfTheES]

Actually he has a point, sorry you're the only one with a donkey....here are another two:

Matt Read
RNH

Both players had decent rookie seasons and never got better. That literally took me 1 min to find. There are many more examples. Tkachuk is severely overrated here, its unbelievable. Trust me he is going to be one of the 5 we just listed. If you don't believe me, go look at the highlights of his points....he doesn't drive his line he benefits from great plays from his teammates, basically the same as in junior.

Try again. I listed RNH and Matt Read wasn't 18. Really should have taken longer than 1 min.

 

[CanaFan]

So? Please oh wise one, please tell me why it matters?

Cause that was the discussion? Players who scored 50+ as 18 year olds.

 

[KingOfTheES]

So? Please oh wise one, please tell me why it matters?

Because the entire conversation point was the season after being drafted. Matt Read wasn't drafted and didn't play his rookie season till he was 25. Reading comprehension brah.

 

[CanaFan]

So? He's just another example of how you can't assume a player is going to get better after a decent regular season. It's stupid to declare Tkachuk "An elite first line winger" after an ok rookie season and then declare a Juolevi a second pairing defenceman when he hasn't even played an NHL game.

Well it is fair to talk about players who have had seasons as good as Tkachuk at 18. Which is why nobody "missed" mentioning a 25 year old Matt Read.

And it's just as fair to speculate that Juolevi may be a 2nd pair D as much as it is to say he is a future 1D. Both sides do it.

 

[MS]

I feel like 3-4 years from now Tkachuk will be a quality 60-point winger and Juolevi will be a 30-point #2 defender and there really won't be a huge value difference there.

I don't 'love' the pick and I'd take Tkachuk right now over Juolevi by a bit but the over-reaction here is getting a bit ridiculous. And a lot of people are setting themselves up to look a bit stupid, same as the people who ranted about the Nichushkin-Horvat decision based on early returns.

 

[krutovsdonut]

That's 3. Got enough to make it convincing?

you are being disingenuous.

 

[CanaFan]

you are being disingenuous.

Disagree. Make a strong case that scoring 50 points at 18 is meaningless. All you've given me is an account of how badly the Oilers have developed their top draft picks.

 

[Black Noise]

So? He's just another example of how you can't assume a player is going to get better after a decent regular season. It's stupid to declare Tkachuk "An elite first line winger" after an ok rookie season and then declare a Juolevi a second pairing defenceman when he hasn't even played an NHL game.

Do you under stand the age curve and when players peak?

NHL forwards tend to peak at 24-26. Read not getting better at 25 isn't a shock. For a 18 year old to not get better is extremely rare.

Also comparing a 18 year old rookie to a 25 year old rookie and saying there's no difference is stupidity.

 

[krutovsdonut]

If a lot do why does your list contain 2 that didn't?

Modern NHL (2000+):

Sidney Crosby - 102
Jeff Skinner - 63
Nathan MacKinnon - 63
Matt Duchene - 55
Ryan Nugent-Hopkins - 52
Ilya Kovalchuk - 51

Like usual you are just talking out your donkey.

you are quibbling the fact gagner got 49 points in 79 games?

ok

 

[Biggest Canuck Fan]

Matthew Tkachuk would be in Uticah if he was drafted by the Canucks.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Disagree. Make a strong case that scoring 50 points at 18 is meaningless. All you've given me is an account of how badly the Oilers have developed their top draft picks.

make a strong case i said scoring 50 points as a rookie is meaningless. then i will reply to your straw man.

 

[CanaFan]

make a strong case i said scoring 50 points as a rookie is meaningless. then i will reply to your straw man.

Ok, my bad for a lazy interpretation of your original point.

Re-stating:

You said "lots" of forwards score 50 points at 18, then proceeded to list 3. That is not "lots". Do you have more that you can list to validate your claim of "lots"?

 

[CherryToke]

And enough of this "he doesn't drive plays" fiction. We've all seen him play, it isn't possible to fool people with this drivel anymore.

it could be argued that Backlund is the one driving the play. He looks like a legit selke candidate. Needs to improve faceoffs though.

 

[Nucker101]

Matthew Tkachuk would be in Uticah if he was drafted by the Canucks.

Not possible

 

[KingOfTheES]

you are quibbling the fact gagner got 49 points in 79 games?

ok

You think 3 is a lot?

ok