GWT: PL Matchweek (mostly) 27

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6 months people claimed pep should be fired... klopp needs like 3 seasons before anyone should suggest this.

It's mostly just people who don't understand what happens to a team when they lose their best player.

I bet if someone charted the average position of where Liverpool win the ball with van Dijk vs. where they win the ball without him, it would tell the entire story all by itself. Their currently healthy defenders are winning the ball about 30% less in the air and hardly anyone else in the team is capable of winning defensive headers. They launched a lot of attacks last season from van Dijk dominating the ball in the air and heading it straight to someone who could run or pass forward. They just don't have that anymore. The necessity of moving Fabinho to CB makes it so that we effectively lost three first team players from last season and not just the two who got hurt. The two CB we had before VVD came are also now gimped up.
 
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Chimaera

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Throw in TAA being wretched (some of that is central defending and midfield related) and scoring touch going missing for Mane, and Firmino looking like he is spent, and there you go.
 

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Throw in TAA being wretched (some of that is central defending and midfield related) and scoring touch going missing for Mane, and Firmino looking like he is spent, and there you go.

The key difference now is just that when someone wins the ball they have to do it in or in front of our box. Our forwards are having to start their attacking phase very deep in our defensive half. They're blowing through their energy all game while that's happening and this is just not what happened last season. Mane in particular is starting his runs so deep that he just can't get forward through the other team's defenders. Liverpool regularly won the ball in midfield a year ago. It blows a gaping hole in Klopp's tactics when the team is incapable of mounting defensive resistance higher up the pitch. We don't really have anything at our disposal to counteract that. Our only great tacklers were forced into CB and now one is injured. Our other players, try as they might, statistically are not good tacklers. All around it's just a disaster, but I do think the team will bounce back next season. This one's done.

The owners also didn't back Klopp whatsoever in January and have their fair share of the blame.
 

Wee Baby Seamus

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Like, I know that Anfield has obviously not been the fortress it historically has been for the past little bit, but holy shit it feels good to have won at Anfield
 
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YNWA14

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I dunno, I don't think that it can be both ways. First I heard that Liverpool were full of average players carried by Klopp being a master tactician, then it was that Liverpool are stacked at every position, and now it's Liverpool are drab because they're missing their best player. I don't buy that a team as successful as Liverpool were are so heavily reliant on a single player that it would be the reason for their massive drop in form. You can't tell me the players on this team aren't good enough to find success playing a different way; either they are incapable of adapting to teams playing them differently, changing their own approach, or the style and intensity of their play has caught up with the players (and staff possibly). It could be a combination of all those things.

Regardless, Klopp getting most of the plaudits for elevating Liverpool to the level that they were playing at means he should also be taking responsibility for the rut they're currently in (I mean, I saw Rodgers go from 1 season away from winning a title to being sacked, and his loss of Suarez was a much more dire situation given the lack of replacement and the rest of the players he had at his disposal). That doesn't mean he isn't good enough to figure it out, and by no means should he be sacked because of one down season, but it's obvious that things aren't working right now and they need a big turnaround. Missing a couple of players, regardless of how good those players are, shouldn't be cause enough for dropping out of the top 4, IMO.
 
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Live in the Now

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I dunno, I don't think that it can be both ways. First I heard that Liverpool were full of average players carried by Klopp being a master tactician, then it was that Liverpool are stacked at every position, and now it's Liverpool are drab because they're missing their best player. I don't buy that a team as successful as Liverpool were are so heavily reliant on a single player that it would be the reason for their massive drop in form. You can't tell me the players on this team aren't good enough to find success playing a different way; either they are incapable of adapting to teams playing them differently, changing their own approach, or the style and intensity of their play has caught up with the players (and staff possibly). It could be a combination of all those things.

Regardless, Klopp getting most of the plaudits for elevating Liverpool to the level that they were playing at means he should also be taking responsibility for the rut they're currently in. That doesn't mean he isn't good enough to figure it out, but it's obvious that things aren't working right now and they need a big turnaround. Missing a couple of players, regardless of how good those players are, shouldn't be cause enough for dropping out of the top 4, IMO.

This is quite ignorant. They lost all of their defenders for months and then January came and the owners didn't back Klopp until the last day. Then they loaned some Schalke guy and signed a Championship guy. Jota, Fabinho, Henderson, Thiago are four other key components who missed a lot of time. van Dijk and Gomez only played five and seven games of a 38 game season. So yeah, ignorant.

There's not going to be a turnaround while van Dijk, Henderson, and Gomez are out. You can just forget about that right now because it isn't going to happen. The best natural CB's they got left are a Bundesliga relegation guy and a Second Bundesliga player.
 

Machinehead

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It's mostly just people who don't understand what happens to a team when they lose their best player.

I bet if someone charted the average position of where Liverpool win the ball with van Dijk vs. where they win the ball without him, it would tell the entire story all by itself. Their currently healthy defenders are winning the ball about 30% less in the air and hardly anyone else in the team is capable of winning defensive headers. They launched a lot of attacks last season from van Dijk dominating the ball in the air and heading it straight to someone who could run or pass forward. They just don't have that anymore. The necessity of moving Fabinho to CB makes it so that we effectively lost three first team players from last season and not just the two who got hurt. The two CB we had before VVD came are also now gimped up.
Actually somebody did that, and yeah, it makes perfect sense. But they finished 4th in 16-17 without him.

This is not that. I was just about in physical pain watching that first half. It was a Chelsea training session. I feel like there's bigger issues here and I really thought this particular side had more in the tank before the sands of time did the inevitable.

Also, we knew Virgil's season was over in October. You can't replace him and I'm absolutely not saying fire Klopp but I think it's a strike against him that we can't even win a game here and there or hell, play one that's watchable.

Virgil changes the system, I get that. But we've had four months to adapt to the point where it's just a loss in quality (a big one, yes) and the team isn't actively broken. That hasn't happened at all.
 

YNWA14

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This is quite ignorant. They lost all of their defenders for months and then January came and the owners didn't back Klopp until the last day. Then they loaned some Schalke guy and signed a Championship guy. Jota, Fabinho, Henderson, Thiago are four other key components who missed a lot of time. van Dijk and Gomez only played five and seven games of a 38 game season. So yeah, ignorant.

There's not going to be a turnaround while van Dijk, Henderson, and Gomez are out. You can just forget about that right now because it isn't going to happen. The best natural CB's they got left are a Bundesliga relegation guy and a Second Bundesliga player.
It's ignorant to believe that Liverpool's team doesn't have the quality to finish or at least contend for top 4 with those injuries. Liverpool are behind West Ham, Leicester, Everton now Chelsea and soon to be Spurs probably. At the rate they're playing it'll soon be more, really. Salah, Mane, Firmino, Wijnaldum, Fabinho, Alisson, Trent, Robertson, etc. are all top players that have played almost every game, with plenty of time from Henderson as well. That's more than enough for a capable manager to work with. So yeah, ignorant indeed.
 

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Actually somebody did that, and yeah, it makes perfect sense. But they finished 4th in 16-17 without him.

They also don't have any of the CB's when they finished fourth. They also got hurt.

Also, we knew Virgil's season was over in October. You can't replace him and I'm absolutely not saying fire Klopp but I think it's a strike against him that we can't even win a game here and there or hell, play one that's watchable.

They just won one on the weekend and a CL game two weeks ago. Look it's time to face some facts here. I know this might be hard for some people to accept, but their CB's right now are the worst in the league. Because they have to play a DM at CB so they can have one decent CB, they lose their best DM too. Then they lose their next best CM just now and lost another one for months earlier on.

Virgil changes the system, I get that. But we've had four months to adapt to the point where it's just a loss in quality (a big one, yes) and the team isn't actively broken. That hasn't happened at all.

You don't adapt in football. You spend money or you don't. The owners didn't and they left the team without any CB's for the whole of January, making it so that we have the other major problem, having to play players so much they become fatigued. Then they bring in only one CB that can play in the top flight and we're back to square one.

It's ignorant to believe that Liverpool's team doesn't have the quality to finish or at least contend for top 4 with those injuries. Liverpool are behind West Ham, Leicester, Everton now Chelsea and soon to be Spurs probably. At the rate they're playing it'll soon be more, really. Salah, Mane, Firmino, Wijnaldum, Fabinho, Alisson, Trent, Robertson, etc. are all top players that have played almost every game, with plenty of time from Henderson as well. That's more than enough for a capable manager to work with. So yeah, ignorant indeed.

If you actually think our CB's are anywhere near as good as the CB's those teams have, you're deluded. Henderson has only played 15 games at CM. It seems like you don't understand that playing those players at CB is effectively like no longer having what they brought to the team in the first place.
 

AB13

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Klopp is still potentially the best manager in the world. But the players are maybe getting tired of his style, which is understandable.
 
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YNWA14

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If you actually think our CB's are anywhere near as good as the CB's those teams have, you're deluded. Henderson has only played 15 games at CM. It seems like you don't understand that playing those players at CB is effectively like no longer having what they brought to the team in the first place.

It's quite the turnaround from everyone lauding just how good Fabinho and Henderson were playing at CB to now having them at CB effectively taking away what they bring to the team in the first place. I have seen countless posts, from you included, bigging up how well Fabinho was playing at CB. Watching the games Henderson has mostly been doing a fine job also. CB is not the only position on the field, and Liverpool have more than enough talent across the board to make up for carrying average defenders. If City can walk to 100 points carrying Otamendi and a bunch of rotated defenders beside him I think that Liverpool can make due with what they have.
 

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It's quite the turnaround from everyone lauding just how good Fabinho and Henderson were playing at CB to now having them at CB effectively taking away what they bring to the team in the first place. I have seen countless posts, from you included, bigging up how well Fabinho was playing at CB. Watching the games Henderson has mostly been doing a fine job also. CB is not the only position on the field, and Liverpool have more than enough talent across the board to make up for carrying average defenders. If City can walk to 100 points carrying Otamendi and a bunch of rotated defenders beside him I think that Liverpool can make due with what they have.

Fabinho played well at CB when Gomez and van Dijk were there. Or against crappy teams. Otherwise what you're saying is mostly just wrong. The key difference is that Otamendi played with other central defenders. Your list is also meaningless in the sense that you listed players who are out of position. It's like if you listed a bunch of talent and ignored that Messi was playing left back or something. We've also had to use Jones every week in his first full season as a pro. I'm not surprised that you don't see the problem, but all these things are obviously problems. Liverpool's played a ton of games this season and they've played Fabinho at CM 3 times, Henderson at CM 15 times. We've entirely depleted our depth just to use them at CB.
 

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City replace 40-50m CBs with other 40m-50m CBs. No one else has that luxury.
 

Machinehead

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They also don't have any of the CB's when they finished fourth. They also got hurt.



They just won one on the weekend and a CL game two weeks ago. Look it's time to face some facts here. I know this might be hard for some people to accept, but their CB's right now are the worst in the league. Because they have to play a DM at CB so they can have one decent CB, they lose their best DM too. Then they lose their next best CM just now and lost another one for months earlier on.



You don't adapt in football. You spend money or you don't. The owners didn't and they left the team without any CB's for the whole of January, making it so that we have the other major problem, having to play players so much they become fatigued. Then they bring in only one CB that can play in the top flight and we're back to square one.



If you actually think our CB's are anywhere near as good as the CB's those teams have, you're deluded. Henderson has only played 15 games at CM. It seems like you don't understand that playing those players at CB is effectively like no longer having what they brought to the team in the first place.
But here's the thing: if you told me they're finishing outside of the top 4 because of everything you said, fine. At the rate they've gone in the calendar year, they would be finishing 17th. Even with the corpse of what used to be the roster, they're a better team than that.

The offense is completely toothless. The opposing keeper can sleep through most games. A lot of that can be attributed to the CB fallout but it's not a skeleton key. You know it's not because you've called out Bobby yourself. Either something is wrong tactically or we're looking at a potential overhaul of the front three. That is not an insignificant problem.

This front three were magic for three years and they look done as a group. This "Virgil is the whole team" narrative overlooks what a challenge that's going to be.
 

YNWA14

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Fabinho played well at CB when Gomez and van Dijk were there. Or against crappy teams. Otherwise what you're saying is mostly just wrong. The key difference is that Otamendi played with other central defenders. Your list is also meaningless in the sense that you listed players who are out of position. It's like if you listed a bunch of talent and ignored that Messi was playing left back or something. We've also had to use Jones every week in his first full season as a pro. I'm not surprised that you don't see the problem, but all these things are obviously problems. Liverpool's played a ton of games this season and they've played Fabinho at CM 3 times, Henderson at CM 15 times. We've entirely depleted our depth just to use them at CB.
It doesn't surprise me that you think you're better than basically everyone as usual and lord around some kind of superiority complex, but I don't agree with your perspective here at all. Jones has arguably been our best CM in his first full season as a pro, that hasn't been a problem at all. Nobody is playing Salah at leftback either. The team isn't playing well and that's not just down to not having van Dijk and Gomez. There is plenty of talent available for use.
 

Savant

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They should have scored more than 1 goal at home over the past 2 months. That isn't too much to ask for.
The scary thing is that they really haven’t looked like they should have scored more. This is about right.
 

Burner Account

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Just hope LFC can still recruit this summer because it’s looking more and more like their pitch to new signings involves Europa League or no Europe.
 

Live in the Now

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It doesn't surprise me that you think you're better than basically everyone as usual and lord around some kind of superiority complex, but I don't agree with your perspective here at all. Jones has arguably been our best CM in his first full season as a pro, that hasn't been a problem at all. Nobody is playing Salah at leftback either. The team isn't playing well and that's not just down to not having van Dijk and Gomez. There is plenty of talent available for use.

I'm not better than anyone firstly, and secondly I feel like that's something you say when it's difficult to refute some of the facts. Nobody's playing Salah at LB, but we have been using our best CM going forward (Henderson) as a CB.

Then, even though Jones has been our best CM, in a lot of ways it's by default. Fabinho and Henderson have had to move out of CM and are decent at CB. Thiago got hurt early and has been completely unable to settle into the team. Keita, Milner, and Ox are always hurt. Gini has played a lot (IMO too much) and is showing a lot of the ramifications of that decision. But again, this goes back to the injuries. Its been all too frequent that we've had too few players to choose from. But this isn't a problem I think is unique to this season either. I think we have too many players who are frankly unreliable, and most of them play CM. So at least in some way you could have seen this coming.

In any case this week was one of the first where we weren't at the top of the injury table, but in a lot of ways it doesn't matter. The team has completely depleted their energy as a result of players having to play so much due to preexisting injuries. Literally every player brought in during the summer has been injured for quite a long time. So it's not like there weren't preparations made for this situation. They just so happened to get everyone hurt at the same time.

And again, there is a tactical issue in that the team is winning the ball too deep in their own half as opposed to the way they were last season. But that's also injury related.

The offense is completely toothless. The opposing keeper can sleep through most games. A lot of that can be attributed to the CB fallout but it's not a skeleton key. You know it's not because you've called out Bobby yourself. Either something is wrong tactically or we're looking at a potential overhaul of the front three. That is not an insignificant problem.

He needs to be replaced. He would have been replaced had Jota not been injured. All of these are obviously problems but the owners didn't do Klopp any favors in January and they just let the team drown. We were in first place on December 30th and everyone knew we needed a CB for months. They did f*** all. The team also played great until they just hit a fatigue wall. They wouldn't be second in xG otherwise, but it's the job of people at the club to know they should do something about our central defensive situation, and they decided not to even though Klopp talked about it all month.

I mean let's look at how Chelsea won this game. First they had a goal wrongly taken away that they scored because our defensive line was completely misaligned. They'd never played with each other to my recollection. Then they scored a second goal because our DM turned CB got rinsed by Mount. Keep in mind that the DM turned CB was rushed back from injury straight into the starting XI because we took yet another f***ing injury.


I understand why people are looking for someone or something to blame, and everyone has their reasons for feeling that way. I feel like the team is just getting destroyed with unlucky, constant shit situations and that's just how it'll be until the season is done.
 
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