GWT: PL Matchweek “27”

[Elvis P]

Everton complain to Premier League and are 'absolutely incandescent' over recent referee decisions

Ref Watch: Dermot Gallagher gives verdict on the controversial penalty appeal for handball by Rodri vs Everton

Chelsea would have won Carabao Cup if Kepa Arrizabalaga had not replaced Edouard Mendy for shootout, says Paul Merson

 

[bluesfan94]

Between here, R/soccer and AFTV, they're all nutters.

The Arsenal fans I know IRL, one is a respectable primary school teacher, the other is one of the most sensible young men I've ever known. The kind of guy you want your daughter to come home with.

Well I can’t claim to be that….

 

[AB13]

Some Arsenal fans just genuinely believe in corruption against us. That doesn’t make you a nutter or not sensible in general. You are not a nutter because you believe football might be rigged. Doesn’t say anything about you in general. Fans of other teams can’t relate because they do not experience the same ridiculous decisions against their team game after game, season after season, year after year. But people can have strong opinions on refereeing and still be sensible. If someone thinks an opinion about referees makes a person a nutter, maybe they are the actual nutters.

 

[Savant]

Some Arsenal fans just genuinely believe in corruption against us. That doesn’t make you a nutter or not sensible in general. You are not a nutter because you believe football might be rigged. Doesn’t say anything about you in general. Fans of other teams can’t relate because they do not experience the same ridiculous decisions against their team game after game, season after season, year after year. But people can have strong opinions on refereeing and still be sensible. If someone thinks an opinion about referees makes a person a nutter, maybe they are the actual nutters.

Genuine question here - why Arsenal though?

Not starting to start any drama or look at stats, simply want to know why Arsenal is being corrupted/targeting. Why them?

 

[Havre]

I guess listening to Wenger moan for 20 years will do something with how you see the world.

Strange thing with the Arsenalfans I know in "real life" is how they are all quite indifferent to football these days. I know United, Liverpool, Leeds whatever-fans who are from passionate to very passionate about their team - just not true for Arsenalfans (got some United-fans the same). Could be that many of them became fans when United and Arsenal were the best - and that they can't deal with this new reality? So used to winning and now they just don't - so you got to blame someone?

 

[AB13]

What I believe to be systematic bias against Arsenal has been going on as long as I can remember.

People were unhappy we brought in a foreign manager in Wenger. We started competing with Ferguson with an entirely different brand of football that wasn't very english at all, and with players of different origin. A lot of the bias against Arsenal probably stems from us simply not being British enough (with jealousy of our way of playing also being a huge factor). I also think Ferguson played a large part in creating an anti-Arsenal bias. Ferguson's response to us having a better team in 2002 was to just kick lumps out of us, and referee's, afraid of Ferguson - which was recently acknowledged by Mark Clattenberg - let them get away with it. The likes of Allardyce decide I'll have a bit of that and the era of "Arsenal don't like it up them" was born. It was never called out, and in fact it was celebrated. That culture led to the career changing injuries inflicted the likes Diaby, Eduardo and Ramsey.

Teams could kick us as much as they wanted to and get away with it. I genuinely do believe there has been corruption and match fixing going on as well. Won't explain that with another long ramble yet again though. Mike Riley is now the head of the PGMOL though. He is the man who infamously ended Arsenal's 49 game unbeaten streak with the single most ridiculous refereeing display I have ever seen.

 

[Havre]

Still they let Wenger win three league titles and a bunch of cups before they stopped Arsenal?

 

[luiginb]

I've kinda liked Arsenal since the days of Dixon and Winterburn because they were fun to watch even before becoming good. But to think there's a league wide conspiracy against them is far fetched.

 

[AB13]

There are some reasons for me possibly thinking it could be corruption and not just stereotypes of Arsenal as the ugly foreigners that affects things here. Referees have been told to cheat in the past. There was also a lot of media coverage about a large number of Premier League referees going on a trip to East Asia a few years ago. They were pictured with prostitutes, probably paid for by gambling overlords. East Asian betting markets are bigger than the sport itself.
Former EPL Ref Mark Halsey Says He Was Told to Say He Missed in-Match Incidents

 

[AB13]

Still they let Wenger win three league titles and a bunch of cups before they stopped Arsenal?

Wengers team was many many levels above every other team in England. Of course they won. I believe Wenger would have won about 7 more leagues with normal refereeing standards. Chelsea would have had a couple more with normal refereeing standards too. Ferguson had few legitamate league titles, I believe.

 

[Havre]

Poor refereeing isn't the same as some conspiracy against Arsenal.

Spurs had a shot a CL football for the first time in the club's history. Just needed to win the last game. What happens - the whole team gets food poisoned and Arsenal takes the 4th spot in the last round. So if you want to talk about dirty play.....

 

[Savant]

I guess listening to Wenger moan for 20 years will do something with how you see the world.

Strange thing with the Arsenalfans I know in "real life" is how they are all quite indifferent to football these days. I know United, Liverpool, Leeds whatever-fans who are from passionate to very passionate about their team - just not true for Arsenalfans (got some United-fans the same). Could be that many of them became fans when United and Arsenal were the best - and that they can't deal with this new reality? So used to winning and now they just don't - so you got to blame someone?

ArsenalFanTV ruined that fanbase

 

[Savant]

Definitely agree that there was a pro-Ferguson bias, but struggling with the rest. Bad calls for sure. Riley is terrible for sure. Still don’t see a reason that Arsenal would be a target though.

 

[Evilo]

I don't believe in conspiracies to *hurt* teams.
I do believe in teams being advantaged, which is entirely different.

 

[luiginb]

Refs in England are bad even with VAR, imagine how shit they were before. I've learned in life to not blame bad will when you can just blame incompetence.

 

[Rob]

Poor refereeing isn't the same as some conspiracy against Arsenal.

I’m an Arsenal fan and I hate hearing about the “systematic bias” that exists against the club. How do you think Everton fans feel today? Bad calls happen against all teams.

Edit: Well maybe not Man City.

 

[Savant]

Refs in England are bad even with VAR, imagine how shit they were before. I've learned in life to not blame bad will when you can just blame incompetence.

I mean the refs were all terrified of Ferguson, and he was in the league for almost 30 years.

The crazy thing about VAR is in literally every other league I’ve seen it used in, there are not near the problems, or certainly not to the level it is in the PL. Refs are all bad, are too protected, and they want VAR to fail. Don’t think it’s as much of conspiracy as it is unchecked, unpunished officiating. But again when you have two refs from the greater Manchester area as first official and VAR and they miss a call like that handball, people are going to talk.

 

[phisherman]

Least amount of fouls with the most red cards.

Imagine ignoring that humans can be bias and that refs are humans.

 

[Evilo]

I don't know.
VAR was used yesterday in the Lille/Lyon game and nobody can talk about anything else today in France.
I think VAR has hardly made the game fair and bad decisions are still legion.

I read today a few times that refs don't understand the game because they've rarely been players. From journalists, players, presidents who have never been refs either. Weird to me.
Reffing is extremely hard. And the easiest route when the ref is hesitating is probably to avoid the heat. And that often means going for the home team or the biggest team. Less pressure that way. Or totally against a team who's coach/president has put pressure on you on the contrary.
They must make quick decisions and sometimes even with VAR, answers aren't easy.

 

[AB13]

I do not know why people act like we must pretend that the prevalence of corruption is absolutely out of the question and not even worth discussing. Like I have said, the conditions are really good for corruption. Look at the wages the referees get. Compare that to the footballers they reign over. Where's the accountability for decision-making? Who's in charge of keeping things okay. Themselves. These conditions produce corruption in any other field and industry, why wouldn't it in a multi billion dollar sport with plenty of shady dark interests pumping money like water (many of which we don’t know enough about)? It’s wrong to discount the possiblity of corruption especially when the same calls always get the same favorable calls game after game, year after year.

 

[Savant]

I don't know.
VAR was used yesterday in the Lille/Lyon game and nobody can talk about anything else today in France.
I think VAR has hardly made the game fair and bad decisions are still legion.

I read today a few times that refs don't understand the game because they've rarely been players. From journalists, players, presidents who have never been refs either. Weird to me.
Reffing is extremely hard. And the easiest route when the ref is hesitating is probably to avoid the heat. And that often means going for the home team or the biggest team. Less pressure that way. Or totally against a team who's coach/president has put pressure on you on the contrary.
They must make quick decisions and sometimes even with VAR, answers aren't easy.

I can’t comment much in general on VAR in L1, but whenever I have seen VAR in UCL, Europa and International play, it’s been quick, painless and mostly without controversy. PL is the only league that I watch where the negative results have routinely outweighed the positives.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

I do not know why people act like we must pretend that the prevalence of corruption is absolutely out of the question and not even worth discussing. Like I have said, the conditions are really good for corruption. Look at the wages the referees get. Compare that to the footballers they reign over. Where's the accountability for decision-making? Who's in charge of keeping things okay. Themselves. These conditions produce corruption in any other field and industry, why wouldn't it in a multi billion dollar sport with plenty of shady dark interests pumping money like water (many of which we don’t know enough about)? It’s wrong to discount the possiblity of corruption especially when the same calls always get the same favorable calls game after game, year after year.

I don't think anybody is denying the prevelance of corruption. But this notion that specific teams get targeted with bad calls just to spite them, for any longer period of time is pretty ridiculous IMO.

 

[AB13]

I don't think anybody is denying the prevelance of corruption. But this notion that specific teams get targeted with bad calls just to spite them, for any longer period of time is pretty ridiculous IMO.

If you try to say teams don’t get targeted in Italy you are the one with a strange opinion. Fans of English teams tend to want to view the sport as ”nicer” or ”cleaner” than it maybe actually is for some reason.

 

[bluesfan94]

I think Arsenal is more an issue of perception than corruption. I think Arsenal has some players (Xhaka being the best example) who have a certain reputation of hotheadedness (and perhaps for good reason). That reputation has been imputed to the team and Arsenal doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. David Luiz was similar.

My secret conspiracy is that there's an unconscious bias among EPL refs against Saka because he was the one who missed the penalty.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Ferguson's response to us having a better team in 2002 was to just kick lumps out of us......
Teams could kick us as much as they wanted to

I was at the 98 Charity Shield at Wembley. My dad had got us pitch side seats. My abiding memory of that game isn't Jap Staam being run ragged on his debut, it was the midfield battle witnessed close up.

Vieira & Petit vs Keane & Scholes.

And let me tell you, they kicked lumps out of each other. I was genuinely shocked by the level of physicality - but Arsenal won that battle. If later Arsenal teams weren't as capable of imposing themselves physically, maybe the fault lies with the manager for not adequately replacing Vieira and Petit?