PK Subban - what went wrong and can he recover?

[MaxDummy]

i remember you guys defending both Subban and Galchenyuk . Good thing they're gone huh?

Yeah good thing, the Habs are soooo much better since they left.

 

[ItWasJustified]

Yeah good thing, the Habs are soooo much better since they left.

Canadiens would've been soooo much worse if they'd stayed.

 

[MaxDummy]

He didn't get the hint when two NHL locker-rooms pretty much kicked him off the team for how annoying he is, then he went ahead and tried to create a social media career based on how annoying he is. His focus is now split between hockey and being an annoying social media presence. Welcome to the ego-centric world of PK Subban.

He to be dead wrong 101

 

[MaxDummy]

Canadiens would've been soooo much worse if they'd stayed.

Much worse than the mediocre team of the past 3 years? Well at least they would've got top picks then

 

[mattihp]

Why the hell did you make me have to Google this.

Damn you!!!

I can't google it from work because Subban bikini is something else in swedish.

 

[PaulD]

What happened to athletes like Dion Phaneuf and Tony Romo ? Both had famous GFs/Wives and went downhill too soon.
Phaneuf in his early 20s was elite but then suddenly he declined into a 2nd pairing type and then become a bottom pairing guy and then became not even good enough for that.
Seems like this is happening to PK Subban too, gets a famous GF/Wife and then declines shortly after.
With Tony Romo it was Jessica Simpson and it seemed to sink his career and the success of Dallas Cowboys.

lol Thats a good one. Its his girls fault. .

And what does the famous part have to do with anything ?

 

[PaulD]

Strongly disagree. Subban was better than Josi both those years. Slightly better in the regular season, significantly better in the playoffs. But it only lasted 2 seasons.

then was traded for a bag of pucks

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

then was traded for a bag of pucks

Well, then fell off to 3rd or 4th best on the team, and therefore getting paid double what he was worth on the ice, sure. And THEN traded for a bag of pucks. I like the bag of pucks we got in that exchange. I mean, the biggest thing we got was Duchene. Who hasn't been great yet. But effectively we got Duchene, Afanaseyev, Campbell, Davies, and half of Kunin. Maybe one of those prospects will hit, maybe not. And it still needs Duchene to get his act together. But so far it's tracking better than just about any other big trade Poile has made in recent years.

 

[SaltNPeca]

Lost his great first step, either to injury or age or both. When you rely almost entirely on that power skating explosiveness losing even a fifth of it is going to make you a much less effective hockey player.

Saw it with Iginla in Calgary. So much of what made him elite was his ability to beat defenders wide by over powering them. One day late in 2011 he lost that and was forced to curl on the half boards basically every time rather than driving the net. It was simply gone and never came back. He was still good but was never the elite powerforward he was for much of his career again. PK can still be a competent top 4 guy but his days of being a top 30 defender in the NHL are over. The quicker he realizes that and stops trying to be the better it will go for him IMO.

Great analysis.

Just wanna say that guys like Chelios, Messier, and Iginla brought a lot to the team on the ice, bench, and in the dressing room. They adapted their style to stay in the #1 hockey league in the world and continue delivering value for the minutes they were on the ice. All worked very hard on-ice and off-ice throughout their careers. This kind of dedication and adaptability is what sets many of the greatest careers apart from the rest of the pack.

 

[THE HOFF]

lost the physical edge he used to rely heavily on that made up for the imperfections in his game. Its a little late to work on his fundamentals but he can do it if he puts his mind behind it.

 

[Soundgarden]

He didn't get the hint when two NHL locker-rooms pretty much kicked him off the team for how annoying he is, then he went ahead and tried to create a social media career based on how annoying he is. His focus is now split between hockey and being an annoying social media presence. Welcome to the ego-centric world of PK Subban.

Yeah, that's horse shit.

It's ok to not like him for whatever reason, but that didn't happen at all.

 

[Mustard]

Strongly disagree. Subban was better than Josi both those years. Slightly better in the regular season, significantly better in the playoffs. But it only lasted 2 seasons.

Did you watch every Preds game those seasons? Genuine question, not trying to throw spaghetti at you.

 

[Mustard]

He didn't get the hint when two NHL locker-rooms pretty much kicked him off the team for how annoying he is, then he went ahead and tried to create a social media career based on how annoying he is. His focus is now split between hockey and being an annoying social media presence. Welcome to the ego-centric world of PK Subban.

Where's your evidence he was disliked, distracting, and a problem in the Nashville locker room? Please, I'm waiting and have been since he first arrived and was told how bad he was going to be here.

There was nothing but praise from players, coaches, and management about his play, leadership (he was a part of the leadership group even though he didn't wear a letter), and off-ice social contributions (ie Blue Line Buddies, Christmas specials for kids, among others) and at NO POINT did anyone other than the Whitewashed Canadian media whenever a Canadian team rolled into town question anything about PK's character or dedication to hockey. You (and other posters here) clearly have an agenda that you probably should've buried in 1965 because there is ZERO substance or evidence to these claims that he was a problem in Nashville and that could only mean one thing.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Did you watch every Preds game those seasons? Genuine question, not trying to throw spaghetti at you.

No, probably only around 80%. All the playoff games. Subban started a little slow in Year 1, but ramped up and surpassed Josi after he got through the initial adjustment phase. Then he was significantly better in the playoffs. And better through Year 2. And much much worse in Year 3 --- except again better in the playoffs but it was such a small sample it doesn't really count for anything.

If "1.0" is the "best D on the Team" it went like this:

Year 1 Regular Season: Subban = 1.0, Josi = 0.95
Year 1 Playoffs: Subban = 1.0, Josi = 0.85

Year 2 Regular Season: Subban 1.0, Josi 0.90
Year 2 Playoffs: Subban 1.0, Josi 0.75

Year 3 Regular Season: Subban 0.50, Josi 1.0
Year 3 Playoffs: Subban 1.0, Josi 0.75

 

[LeftWingLocked]

When he thought he was an entertainer, not a hockey player, that's where it went wrong. I called this a few years back but the tik Tok crowd thought I was out of touch.

 

[Armourboy]

No, probably only around 80%. All the playoff games. Subban started a little slow in Year 1, but ramped up and surpassed Josi after he got through the initial adjustment phase. Then he was significantly better in the playoffs. And better through Year 2. And much much worse in Year 3 --- except again better in the playoffs but it was such a small sample it doesn't really count for anything.

If "1.0" is the "best D on the Team" it went like this:

Year 1 Regular Season: Subban = 1.0, Josi = 0.95
Year 1 Playoffs: Subban = 1.0, Josi = 0.85

Year 2 Regular Season: Subban 1.0, Josi 0.90
Year 2 Playoffs: Subban 1.0, Josi 0.75

Year 3 Regular Season: Subban 0.50, Josi 1.0
Year 3 Playoffs: Subban 1.0, Josi 0.75

Outside of the playoffs I wouldn't say he was better really. Let's not forget he was playing with Ekholm who was playing really well himself. Frankly I've always put those 3 on about par at that time, but they all played different games so for me it was pretty hard to make any real comparison.

Anyone that's says he wasn't good those first 2 years didn't watch it or has a bias though.

 

[loosemoose]

Tons of players hit a hard decline in their late 20s. It feels like it's a little more rare for star players, but it shouldn't be though of as unusual.

 

[Lshap]

Well, then fell off to 3rd or 4th best on the team, and therefore getting paid double what he was worth on the ice, sure. And THEN traded for a bag of pucks. I like the bag of pucks we got in that exchange. I mean, the biggest thing we got was Duchene. Who hasn't been great yet. But effectively we got Duchene, Afanaseyev, Campbell, Davies, and half of Kunin. Maybe one of those prospects will hit, maybe not. And it still needs Duchene to get his act together. But so far it's tracking better than just about any other big trade Poile has made in recent years.

It sounds like you're spinning it like Subban was traded for Duchene. Lumping those separate deals together gives Subban an artificial bump, because it sounds like he and Duchene had equal value and were swapped for each other, which obviously wasn't what happened. Subban's actual trade value was two marginal defencemen and two 2nd round picks. Yes, it freed up cap space to later sign Duchene, but if Subban had real value, why couldn't Nashville get 1st round picks and top prospects?

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

It sounds like you're spinning it like Subban was traded for Duchene. Lumping those separate deals together gives Subban an artificial bump, because it sounds like he and Duchene had equal value and were swapped for each other, which obviously wasn't what happened. Subban's actual trade value was two marginal defencemen and two 2nd round picks. Yes, it freed up cap space to later sign Duchene, but if Subban had real value, why couldn't Nashville get 1st round picks and top prospects?

Although possibly it could be construed as a negative value contract dump if Duchene keeps playing the way he did last season. But either way, no... what we got was Cap Space. That's the asset that was obtained, and it's a real asset in the modern NHL. Duchene was the player we chose to use that Cap Space on, and it's entirely likely that his name actually devalues what we obtained in the Subban trade. If we say instead we got $8M in cap space, that's fine. I think that's worth MORE than "spinning" it like we got Duchene! End of the day though, the assets we have to show for the trade, the bag of pucks in our hands right now today, from the Predators' perspective are Afanaseyev, Campbell, Davies, Duchene, and part of Kunin. It's not a spin. It's not being used to argue for or against the return or anybody's part in it. It's just an accounting of assets. You can decide for yourself if that's a good or bad return, or if it should have been more or less.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Outside of the playoffs I wouldn't say he was better really. Let's not forget he was playing with Ekholm who was playing really well himself. Frankly I've always put those 3 on about par at that time, but they all played different games so for me it was pretty hard to make any real comparison.

Anyone that's says he wasn't good those first 2 years didn't watch it or has a bias though.

And that's fair. If somebody wanted to weight Year 1 in particular somewhat differently than I did, I could definitely see that. It did take Subban time to warm up, and it took the Preds some time to figure him out, so I'm possibly weighting heavier on the end of the season than somebody else would. I think Year 2 there was a stronger case for a little separation. It's still 2 years of a top-10 Norris-candidate NHL defenseman, though. Either way. And it doesn't make the argument stronger or weaker if the Preds just happened to have two such players on the team at the same time. So regardless of the head-to-head player comparison, the Preds definitely had an excellent player in Subban... for 2 years. If he was significantly better than that in Montreal... I don't think he could have been... he would have won multiple Norris trophies if that had been the case.

Put another way: Subban was worth his full $9M cap hit in Year 1 and Year 2 with the Preds. But he was only worth half that in Year 3. A $9M player is a very good player.

 

[Hockeyholic]

I thought he was on a hall of fame trajectory. Unfortunately it appears he won't be enshrined now.

But maybe he can salvage his career somewhat.

 

[Lshap]

Although possibly it could be construed as a negative value contract dump if Duchene keeps playing the way he did last season. But either way, no... what we got was Cap Space. That's the asset that was obtained, and it's a real asset in the modern NHL. Duchene was the player we chose to use that Cap Space on, and it's entirely likely that his name actually devalues what we obtained in the Subban trade. If we say instead we got $8M in cap space, that's fine. I think that's worth MORE than "spinning" it like we got Duchene! End of the day though, the assets we have to show for the trade, the bag of pucks in our hands right now today, from the Predators' perspective are Afanaseyev, Campbell, Davies, Duchene, and part of Kunin. It's not a spin. It's not being used to argue for or against the return or anybody's part in it. It's just an accounting of assets. You can decide for yourself if that's a good or bad return, or if it should have been more or less.

I agree the asset management to free up space for Duchene was well-done by Poile. My point was that it still left Subban in a bad light, based on the return. It's not a criticism of Poile -- he got two excellent years out of Subban -- and it's not even a criticism of Subban, who I feel gets unfairly dumped on by people who don't have a clue about his work ethic. It's just an acknowledgment of how quickly an elite player can lose his edge.

 

[JustaFinnishGuy]

Some people are forgetting that PK was the jumpstart the Preds needed to get to the 1st finals in franchise history, there's no way around that fact.
He was absolutely great in his 2 first years and ok on the third. I would have never traded him based on 2 great years and 1 ok one, but Poile decided otherwise and so far that's been the best play possible in that position.
Hoping for a bounceback.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Some people are forgetting that PK was the jumpstart the Preds needed to get to the 1st finals in franchise history, there's no way around that fact.
He was absolutely great in his 2 first years and ok on the third. I would have never traded him based on 2 great years and 1 ok one, but Poile decided otherwise and so far that's been the best play possible in that position.
Hoping for a bounceback.

I think what we didn't and couldn't have know was just what the reasoning behind Subban's Year 3 dropoff was. And Poile did know. Or at least had enough first-hand information to project much more accurately than we could that there was no bounceback forthcoming. Poile certainly got the timing right. Imagine trying to move Subban now!

 

[LeafChief]

It's probably been mentioned in this thread but I'm fairly certain he hurt his back weightlifting/squatting too much in the off-season one year and it's had a real negative effect on him.

With all this time off, if he has changed his workout routine and fixed his back, I wouldn't be surprised to see a resurgence out of him.