Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Salary Cap Thread: Kane?!? The only Kane I want is the candy

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[AuroraBorealis]

@Darren McCord
Quoting here cuz I can't use the feature with the thread change.

"I mean Kane is a good player. I just dont think he is the missing piece. I get why people want him. I just do not think he is worth the risk. Zucker hasn't been bad this year. He hasn't been as good as Kane could be either. I just don't know if moving Zucker out to bring in Kane is the right move. I also dont trust Sully to handle the situation well."

He is producing points 5v5 at a P/60 rate worse than Jankowski last season, while playing with hot ERod and Kap for a lot of it, and getting far more O-zone starts. Only 2 of them are goals too.
So as bad as his production was last year, this year's he's somehow worse.

It's great that his process is better, but if you're producing like this and were brought here to produce like a top 6, I don't see how we can call him anything but bad this year. This is a joke yield for a 5.5 mil price tag.

Kane would probably cost 2 mil less and produce close to double this, while also improving his teammates ability to score themselves.

Kane averaged 32 goals per 82 games in San Jose. Their best goal scorer. It's a very significant upgrade, or at least should be.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The biggest issue I see with acquiring Kane is figuring out how you'd actually make the cap space and roster spot for him. On paper, it's easy to just say "trade Zucker and give Kane his spot", but Zucker is apparently really liked in the locker room and I don't really think making that swap will make a ton of players happy. I think the move makes a lot of sense on paper, especially considering how iffy Zucker and Malkin have looked together, but it's a move I'm really skeptical Hextall makes.

I think the top-9 wingers on this team should be pretty firmly established with Guentzel, Rust, Kapanen, Zucker, Rodrigues and Heinen. Swapping Zucker for Kane is the blatantly obvious move to make there, it's just one I can't see this team making. Imagine how much of a nightmare this team would be for matchups if this was their top-9:

Rodrigues-Crosby-Kapanen
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Kane-Carter-Heinen

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The biggest issue I see with acquiring Kane is figuring out how you'd actually make the cap space and roster spot for him. On paper, it's easy to just say "trade Zucker and give Kane his spot", but Zucker is apparently really liked in the locker room and I don't really think making that swap will make a ton of players happy. I think the move makes a lot of sense on paper, especially considering how iffy Zucker and Malkin have looked together, but it's a move I'm really skeptical Hextall makes.

I think the top-9 wingers on this team should be pretty firmly established with Guentzel, Rust, Kapanen, Zucker, Rodrigues and Heinen. Swapping Zucker for Kane is the blatantly obvious move to make there, it's just one I can't see this team making. Imagine how much of a nightmare this team would be for matchups if this was their top-9:

Rodrigues-Crosby-Kapanen
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Kane-Carter-Heinen

I don't think anyone here is under the impression that Hextall will actually do it. But yeah it would have to be Zucker going out for several reasons.
It's just fun to talk about. These kinds of players don't come around often at these kinds of price tags. We happen to have a big problem with Zuck stapled to Malkin, and Kane plays the same position.

What's more is that the Pens #1 problem is their finishing, and that's what Kane does best. Zucker is the 4th worst finisher in the NHL this year, relative to his chances.

 

[Tender Rip]

Rodrigues-Crosby-Kapanen
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Kane-Carter-Heinen

Just wanted to say that if you acquire Kane and do not put him with Sid to help with one of the biggest issues we have, then what's the point in taking the risk?
Rodrigues Crosby Kapanen were good against Caps and not very good against Anaheim. I guarantee that Sullivan is not at all sweet on that line, nor should he be.
Kapanen has been bad positionally/defensively all season so far, and while Rodrigues has certainly been very, very impressive for the level of expectation one should have, making him a 1st liner is setting him up to fail. Right or wrong there is no way Guentzel is not with Sid also, no matter how Geno looks when coming back.

And yes, if Hextall were to go for Kane, it should of course be Zucker who is traded in terms of performance/caphit, but that also guarantees getting a shoddy return if it can even be done. With Rust coming up on UFA, asset management considerations might dictate that it is him instead. Do we want to give him 5-5.5 per year going forward.... I love Rusty, but probably not.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

We haven't made it out of the first round since 2018. We don't know how Malkin is going to impact the team, which given how this team has sometimes performed after a star returns from IR, is a valid question (which, presumably, will be answered by the trade deadline). I doubt the delta between Zuck and Kane delivers a cup, and the inherent risk of losing a good teammate for a potential sociopath doesn't sound appealing. Sociopath may be a bit of an exaggeration of course, but Kane has shown us who he is, and it isn't pretty, irrespective of his physical attributes. This deal would be almost like the opposite of the Neal/Hornqvist trade. Being around selfish dicks sucks - f*** Kane. IMHO....

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Whatever you think of Kane's antics and risk/reward personally, the thing you need to honestly ask yourself is:

Precisely how long do you think Sullivan would tolerate his bullshit?

 

[Empoleon8771]

We haven't made it out of the first round since 2018. We don't know how Malkin is going to impact the team, which given how this team has sometimes performed after a star returns from IR, is a valid question (which, presumably, will be answered by the trade deadline). I doubt the delta between Zuck and Kane delivers a cup, and the inherent risk of losing a good teammate for a potential sociopath doesn't sound appealing. Sociopath may be a bit of an exaggeration of course, but Kane has shown us who he is, and it isn't pretty, irrespective of his physical attributes. This deal would be almost like the opposite of the Neal/Hornqvist trade. Being around selfish dicks sucks - f*** Kane. IMHO....

I mean, I asked this in the last thread but I'll ask again. If the team isn't a cup contender regardless, what's the actual downside of this? What is the risk of making the move? You're not threatening to upend the balance of a good team with a great locker room, the team is inherently mediocre.

Let's not sugarcoat Kane's situation: he's an absolute piece of shit. There isn't even a shred of argument against that. But personally, I just don't see the downside there. The worst case scenario is that he's a piece of shit, does something detrimental to the team and the Penguins are stuck with some dead cap space. But at the same point, that dead cap space probably won't even matter because the Penguins won't be that good at that point anyway. This isn't a situation where the team is young and you'd be throwing away future years of contention, they just don't have those future years.

Just wanted to say that if you acquire Kane and do not put him with Sid to help with one of the biggest issues we have, then what's the point in taking the risk?
Rodrigues Crosby Kapanen were good against Caps and not very good against Anaheim. I guarantee that Sullivan is not at all sweet on that line, nor should he be.
Kapanen has been bad positionally/defensively all season so far, and while Rodrigues has certainly been very, very impressive for the level of expectation one should have, making him a 1st liner is setting him up to fail. Right or wrong there is no way Guentzel is not with Sid also, no matter how Geno looks when coming back.

And yes, if Hextall were to go for Kane, it should of course be Zucker who is traded in terms of performance/caphit, but that also guarantees getting a shoddy return if it can even be done. With Rust coming up on UFA, asset management considerations might dictate that it is him instead. Do we want to give him 5-5.5 per year going forward.... I love Rusty, but probably not.

That top-9 would be an absolute matchup nightmare for any team the Penguins could play in the playoffs. Sure, I'd be fine with Kane playing in the top-6, but he'd feast on lesser matchups on a 3rd line role with Carter as well.

 

[Turin]

I don’t really care if Zucker is well liked if he’s not a contributor

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Whatever you think of Kane's antics and risk/reward personally, the thing you need to honestly ask yourself is:

Precisely how long do you think Sullivan would tolerate his bullshit?

Considering how good his defensive numbers were in San Jose, and how he was even used in a defensive capacity last year, I wouldn't expect any problems.
Sullivan appreciates guys who execute his system, and reward them.

If he was a lazy player on top of all of his antics, I would agree with you. But that's not the case.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

I mean, I asked this in the last thread but I'll ask again. If the team isn't a cup contender regardless, what's the actual downside of this? What is the risk of making the move? You're not threatening to upend the balance of a good team with a great locker room, the team is inherently mediocre.

Let's not sugarcoat Kane's situation: he's an absolute piece of shit. There isn't even a shred of argument against that. But personally, I just don't see the downside there. The worst case scenario is that he's a piece of shit, does something detrimental to the team and the Penguins are stuck with some dead cap space. But at the same point, that dead cap space probably won't even matter because the Penguins won't be that good at that point anyway. This isn't a situation where the team is young and you'd be throwing away future years of contention, they just don't have those future years.



That top-9 would be an absolute matchup nightmare for any team the Penguins could play in the playoffs. Sure, I'd be fine with Kane playing in the top-6, but he'd feast on lesser matchups on a 3rd line role with Carter as well.

Valid question, Empo. Well, one potential downside, assuming personality and maturity issues don't arise, is he misses a big chunk of the season or the playoffs. He hasn't any recent injury years as bad as his time in Winnipeg, but he is certainly no ironman (and yes, neither are Zuck or Rusty). My dislike for Kane informs my opinion. The Penguins would be a much, much more dangerous team with Tom Wilson, but I can't stomach the idea. And, as much as I hate Wilson, I bet he is a helluva good teammate. Edit- there is a reason (many, actually) I don't work in a front office.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Considering how good his defensive numbers were in San Jose, and how he was even used in a defensive capacity last year, I wouldn't expect any problems.
Sullivan appreciates guys who execute his system, and reward them.

If he was a lazy player on top of all of his antics, I would agree with you. But that's not the case.

Did you not read the article I quoted you about his showing up late to games and practice, flouting team rules, and having poor practice habits? And that was just on the Sharks.

 

[SEALBound]

I don’t really care if Zucker is well liked if he’s not a contributor

Carl Hagelin Syndrome.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Did you not read the article I quoted you about his showing up late to games and practice, flouting team rules, and having poor practice habits? And that was just on the Sharks.

Not subscribed to the Athletic, so I'm locked out of that article.

I'll admit it surprises me that he's lazy in practice and then busts his ass during games. Usually it doesn't work that way with players. Things carry over. I do wonder how he'd conduct himself here though, in this kind of organization. His situation has changed since then and his leeway is running out.

But it's also noteworthy that his coach trusted him heavily during games. He was their #2 logged Forward in PK time, and got 54% D-zone starts.
So the coaches had faith in his ability to execute their defensive system, despite him not giving his best to do it in practice.

 

[Pens x]

Sully would coach his offensive ability out of him.

 

[Turin]

Carl Hagelin Syndrome.

but even then Hags had cups and could PK and wasn’t 5 million.

 

[SEALBound]

but even then Hags had cups and could PK and wasn’t 5 million.

Craig Adams had a cup and could PK and wasn't $5mil

That said, the PK is rocking at like 92%. I don't care who is or isn't on it.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

Carl Hagelin Syndrome.

Word has it Jimmy Rutherford has called the league to see if it is okay for the Canucks to trade with the Caps for Hagelin...

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Kane would score and defend like a champ on our 3rd line.

My god would he make any line he is on better if he is the main guy.

We almost need to make a poll find out who wants Kane and who doesn't here.

 

[Extra Texture]

The question I found myself asking today is why did Kane have to seem his shit together for a few years in SJ, and then it all fell apart?

I don’t know if Pavelski and Thornton were good influences on that room and thing fell apart when they left or what, but I did see plenty about how Kane felt pretty close to JT and was pretty sad when he left. And that since the two Joes left that team, in the last couple of years, Kane went from a guy who “found his home” and straightened up, to the world of shit he finds himself in now.

Not saying that excuses or explains anything, but I recall Kane seeming like he “turned the corner” for a few years in SJ as he was quietly productive and had few of the old issues following him there.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The question I found myself asking today is why did Kane have to seem his shit together for a few years in SJ, and then it all fell apart.

I don’t know if Pavelski and Thornton were good influences on that room and thing fell apart when they left or what, but I did see plenty about how Kane felt pretty close to JT and was pretty sad when he left.

Not saying that excuses or explains anything, but I recall Kane seeming like he “turned the corner” for a few years in SJ as he was quietly productive and had few of the old issues following him there.

Could be a correlation with the team making the playoffs in years 1 and 2 there. Personal issues less magnified when the team is doing well. When guys are frustrated in practice and in the room, things blow up.

The odd thing is that last year was his best of the 3 full seasons there imo, statistically speaking.
Yes he put up 30g-26a in 75 games in 2018-19, but that came at the cost of 153 PIMS.
Last year he put up 22g-27a in 56 games. His PIMS nosedived to 42. His offensive zone usage went down by 11%, yet his point rate was better than ever.

The fact that he played more disciplined like this recently is pretty encouraging for me, were we to get him. That's my biggest concern with him in regards to on-ice. If he just paraded to the box like before then I'm less interested. Our PK can't keep this up forever...I think...maybe...

 

[Peat]

The question I found myself asking today is why did Kane have to seem his shit together for a few years in SJ, and then it all fell apart?

I don’t know if Pavelski and Thornton were good influences on that room and thing fell apart when they left or what, but I did see plenty about how Kane felt pretty close to JT and was pretty sad when he left. And that since the two Joes left that team, in the last couple of years, Kane went from a guy who “found his home” and straightened up, to the world of shit he finds himself in now.

Not saying that excuses or explains anything, but I recall Kane seeming like he “turned the corner” for a few years in SJ as he was quietly productive and had few of the old issues following him there.

It's possible removing those guys had something to do with it.

I also think that going bankrupt and falling out with his wife so badly that she puts out a bunch of career-ending allegations (as a minimum) would probably stress him hugely and make him act out. Part of any sensible due diligence for bringing him in would involve talking to people and seeing how stable his life situation is right now.

I don't think anyone here is under the impression that Hextall will actually do it. But yeah it would have to be Zucker going out for several reasons.
It's just fun to talk about. These kinds of players don't come around often at these kinds of price tags. We happen to have a big problem with Zuck stapled to Malkin, and Kane plays the same position.

What's more is that the Pens #1 problem is their finishing, and that's what Kane does best. Zucker is the 4th worst finisher in the NHL this year, relative to his chances.

The rumour mill seems pretty consistent that we're interested, we had a scout at the Barracuda game, he fits a need the front office have been talking a ton about, and he's going to come at a price that a not exactly flush team will love. The only thing he doesn't fit is attempts to have good PR for the Pens, but who knows how much the new owners care about that?

I 100% think Hextall would do it, and I'm beginning to think it'll happen because of just how much sense it makes if they think this room can keep him straight long enough to go deep in the playoffs.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think it's pretty clear he didn't have his shit together, but this whole thing with his public marriage woes, gambling issues, and now his felony fake vaccine card--broke the camel's back.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The rumour mill seems pretty consistent that we're interested, we had a scout at the Barracuda game, he fits a need the front office have been talking a ton about, and he's going to come at a price that a not exactly flush team will love. The only thing he doesn't fit is attempts to have good PR for the Pens, but who knows how much the new owners care about that?

I 100% think Hextall would do it, and I'm beginning to think it'll happen because of just how much sense it makes if they think this room can keep him straight long enough to go deep in the playoffs.

I hope so, but there were 5 other scouts there. As each day passes, my doubt grows.
I read that he had a fairly good first game too. 5 shots. 4 shots and an assist in game #2. If he plays well tomorrow against the Colorado Eagles and puts up points, I wonder if someone will pull the trigger. Normally teams would be patient here, but there's a lot of pressure to act before someone else does.

He's a very sensitive topic here so I'll leave it at that and just wait for news.

 

[JRS91]

I don't care how good Kane is, he's a bad person and has a bad personality.