Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salad Cap Thread: I'll take my salad with extra salt

[Empoleon8771]

Let's continue the same 3 discussions we always have.

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[HandshakeLine]

Let's talk about sex, bay-bee.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'll start us off on nice, even, rational and completely non-incendiary ground, here...

*ahem*

Marcus Pettersson f***in' sucks, ya'll.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Maybe, he does in fact have more points than either of them this year. But I'm not sure if that's been him playing in the top 6 or bottom. I just don't know if he has the chops to grind it out. but you know what, maybe it'd be worth claiming him and trying? We could just waive him if it doesn't workout right?

Just watched a few of his clips. He has 3 goals in his last 7 games on the 4th line. They were all backdoor passes. Two from Spezza. One from Brodie.
He didn't have to do much besides elevate a little and get it on net. So he's mostly just cashing in on other's work...which I guess is fine.

His minutes went down last 3 games, which I'm assuming is because of poor defensive play...leading to this.

He got elevated earlier in the season to Tavares and Nylander's line, when Thornton was hurt. Didn't do much there and got demoted for Mikheyev I believe.

 

[pistolpete11]

From the previous thread... @Empoleon8771

I've made my opinion of Glendening pretty well known, I think he's terrible, but I have a different reason for being against the concept: I don't want Hextall to bother wasting assets on guys who won't realistically move the needle for this team. I just don't think that playing Jankowski or Glendening on the 4th line will really matter that much in a playoff series. There's a cap on how much your 4C matters if you're playing your 4C 8 minutes a night.

I think if you're adding anything, you go with a bigger acquisition. That wouldn't be anything major, probably just a legit 3rd line player to push the BART line to your 4th line. But I don't see adding a defensive grinder to your 4th line as really making much of a difference with this team. Whether this team wins or loses in the playoffs depends mostly on whether the offense and Jarry shows up.

I can understand that point of view and I'm not against it in theory, but of the names being thrown around, I think they are a) unrealistic (Forsberg, Reinhart, Pavelski, etc.) or b) not good options (E. Staal, Rakell, Granlund, etc.)

A guy like E. Staal is of course a better player than Glendening, but he doesn't have a clear role in Pittsburgh and I'm over just getting the best players possible and saying "Here, Sully. Figure it out." The guy has been a C for the vast majority of his career so getting him for Malkin's wing is sketchy to me. The guy has also been used in offensive situations for the vast majority of his career so I think playing him as a 3C in heavy defensive situations like Sully does with his bottom 6 is a bad idea.

So, I'd rather get a guy that fits the role he'd be asked to play and receive futures instead of adding them.

And ideally, I think your 4C is playing more than 8min a night, especially in the playoffs when you have an aging 1C and 2C.

 

[theicebox]

I think Angello needs to play.

Guentzel - Crosby - Rust
Slot - Malkin - Kapanen
AstonReese - Blueger - Tanev
Slot - Slot - Angello

Two of those slots are going to Zucker and McCann.

That leaves one slot for a trade acquisition, Rodrigues, or Jankowski.

Angello is fast with some skill (in addition to being able to hit and defend our star players). I think he is contributing to our win streak in addition to Dumoulin's return.

 

[Peat]

I would like a 4th line that justifies more than 8 minutes a night - or hell, more than 5 - and even just in those 8 the difference between bad, meh, and good is noticeable. I'm not sure we need to bring in a guy, or that Glendening is the answer, but something more than this is needed.

 

[Empoleon8771]

From the previous thread... @Empoleon8771





I can understand that point of view and I'm not against it in theory, but of the names being thrown around, I think they are a) unrealistic (Forsberg, Reinhart, Pavelski, etc.) or b) not good options (E. Staal, Rakell, Granlund, etc.)

A guy like E. Staal is of course a better player than Glendening, but he doesn't have a clear role in Pittsburgh and I'm over just getting the best players possible and saying "Here, Sully. Figure it out." The guy has been a C for the vast majority of his career so getting him for Malkin's wing is sketchy to me. The guy has also been used in offensive situations for the vast majority of his career so I think playing him as a 3C in heavy defensive situations like Sully does with his bottom 6 is a bad idea.

So, I'd rather get a guy that fits the role he'd be asked to play and receive futures instead of adding them.

And ideally, I think your 4C is playing more than 8min a night, especially in the playoffs when you have an aging 1C and 2C.

I think you're right with who has been thrown out in here, but I'd rather to try and find a better option than someone like Glendening. My goal for the bottom-6 is to have 2 roughly equal lines of BART and a line with ERod and McCann as 2/3 of the line. I think you can acquire that if you acquire a good 3rd line winger and run with McCann-ERod-Trade, but I don't think Glendening is that.

But something that helps Glendening is that Sullivan doesn't use Rodrigues on the PK, and I don't recall him using McCann much recently either. You need another center PKing option if you get rid of Jankowski because Sullivan doesn't have Rodrigues or ERod as PKers.

I would like a 4th line that justifies more than 8 minutes a night - or hell, more than 5 - and even just in those 8 the difference between bad, meh, and good is noticeable. I'm not sure we need to bring in a guy, or that Glendening is the answer, but something more than this is needed.

I agree but I also think you can get this internally. Just stop playing bad players like Jankowski and I think that gets you pretty close to what you need out of your 4th line.

I don't think it's great and it may present problems with your PK, but I don't see Sceviour-Rodrigues-Angello as a "problem" as your 4th line.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Or Sullivan could man up and use the perfectly good PKers he has on the team like Kapenen and McCann? I mean, if he's going to put Rust out there, why not Kappy?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Or Sullivan could man up and use the perfectly good PKers he has on the team like Kapenen and McCann? I mean, if he's going to put Rust out there, why not Kappy?

McCann would help there but Kapanen wouldn't. The issue is you need a guy who can take faceoffs because Blueger is the only guy that takes faceoffs on that PK unit. Rodrigues doesn't kill penalties and McCann is horrid with faceoffs, although it's not like Jankowski has done that well in that role this year either.

The PKing forwards right now is Tanev, Blueger, ZAR, Rust and Jankowski. I don't think you need to add Kapanen there, you need to replace Jankowski with a center who isn't terrible.

 

[mpp9]

Sully no trust Kappy. That’s why.

 

[HandshakeLine]

McCann would help there but Kapanen wouldn't. The issue is you need a guy who can take faceoffs because Blueger is the only guy that takes faceoffs on that PK unit. Rodrigues doesn't kill penalties and McCann is horrid with faceoffs, although it's not like Jankowski has done that well in that role this year either.

The PKing forwards right now is Tanev, Blueger, ZAR, Rust and Jankowski. I don't think you need to add Kapanen there, you need to replace Jankowski with a center who isn't terrible.

If I could only do the one, I'd actually just replace Jankowski with McCann. But why wouldn't you add Kapenen since he was a pretty good PKer with Toronto and our PK is terribad right now? Or at least swap Rust and Kappy on occasion to help manage Rust's usage.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Sully no trust Kappy. That’s why.

Yeah I agree. Though frankly I'm fine enough with it simply because if this team loses like the only viable option for Malkin's wing to injury it would be, uh... bad.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Or Sullivan could man up and use the perfectly good PKers he has on the team like Kapenen and McCann? I mean, if he's going to put Rust out there, why not Kappy?

Apart from Jank, who is awful, it's definitely more of a system problem than personnel. They're being told to do a sort of diamond-low formation.

Not opposed at all to trying new personnel, especially Kappy. But the issue is at the root. Until they scrap it, the PK will suffer.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If I could only do the one, I'd actually just replace Jankowski with McCann. But why wouldn't you add Kapenen since he was a pretty good PKer with Toronto and our PK is terribad right now?

I don't think the PK is terribad right now due to players, I think the structure is really dumb and leads to a bunch of goals against. Adding Kapanen there wouldn't really change anything.

I can't remember who pointed it out in the GDT, but someone made a great point that their PK structure is downright nonsensical right now. They're playing a tight triangle with 3 of their PKers (1 forward and 2 D collapsing towards the slot) and the 4th PKer rotates around the top of the circles. The problem is that that rotating PKer isn't fast enough to cut off passes and the defensemen down low are not clearing out bodies from in front of Jarry, which leads to a ton of screened shots and good scoring opportunities.

Look at the PK goal against last night. A Bruins forward was standing in front of Jarry with no one even close to him and the Bruins defenseman was able to get a shot off because the rotating forward didn't get to him in time. A ton of the goals they've given up this year have been exactly like that.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I don't think the PK is terribad right now due to players, I think the structure is really dumb and leads to a bunch of goals against. Adding Kapanen there wouldn't really change anything.

I can't remember who pointed it out in the GDT, but someone made a great point that their PK structure is downright nonsensical right now. They're playing a tight triangle with 3 of their PKers (1 forward and 2 D collapsing towards the slot) and the 4th PKer rotates around the top of the circles. The problem is that that rotating PKer isn't fast enough to cut off passes and the defensemen down low are not clearing out bodies from in front of Jarry, which leads to a ton of screened shots and good scoring opportunities.

Look at the PK goal against last night. A Bruins forward was standing in front of Jarry with no one even close to him and the Bruins defenseman was able to get a shot off because the rotating forward didn't get to him in time. A ton of the goals they've given up this year have been exactly like that.

@Riikolas Revenge had the breakdown, IIRC.

And I agree with both of you, but at the same time, I don't see the coaching staff as willing to admit that the PK (or the PP) are structurally, fundamentally, and effectively useless. So, if we're going to pray for individual efforts to save the day, might as well put better personnel there to see if that can actually cargo cult our PK into respectability.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Honestly special teams has kind of been a massive issue all season, barring recent PP success. Hell even Malkin's slow start (as far as raw production goes) could be almost directly attributed to lack of powerplay points as he wasn't a TOTAL trainwreck 5v5.

Pretty slick coaching at work so far this year, boys.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I get that Sullivan has delegated the PK/PP to Vellucci and Reirden, respectively, but I am absolutely flummoxed that he's seemingly okay with how terrible they are.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Honestly special teams has kind of been a massive issue all season, barring recent PP success. Hell even Malkin's slow start (as far as raw production goes) could be almost directly attributed to lack of powerplay points as he wasn't a TOTAL trainwreck 5v5.

Pretty slick coaching at work so far this year, boys.

I'll give credit to Reirden for some of the PP adjustments lately though. Sid on the left side is working. Gives us a threat on the other side of the ice. He set up Geno nicely yesterday. Plus Sid is clearly being told to shoot more, which makes us less predictable.

Noticing a ton more movement lately too. That's really what's most effective for this team. It's opening cross-seams and allowing guys to fade away from coverage.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'll give credit to Reirden for some of the PP adjustments lately though. Sid on the left side is working. Gives us a threat on the other side of the ice. He set up Geno nicely yesterday. Plus Sid is clearly being told to shoot more, which makes us less predictable.

Noticing a ton more movement lately too. That's really what's most effective for this team. It's opening cross-seams and allowing guys to fade away from coverage.

You're absolutely right. Credit where it's due.

I think the major thing, of course, is that Sid/G are moving their feet and making better decisions. They've always suffered a bit on the powerplay, particularly Sid, I think. They just aren't static style players. They thrive off the rush and creating with speed and momentum.

That pass from Crosby last night was a thing of beauty. I love that Malkin hit a milestone assisted by Crosby and Letang.

 

[pistolpete11]

I think you're right with who has been thrown out in here, but I'd rather to try and find a better option than someone like Glendening. My goal for the bottom-6 is to have 2 roughly equal lines of BART and a line with ERod and McCann as 2/3 of the line. I think you can acquire that if you acquire a good 3rd line winger and run with McCann-ERod-Trade, but I don't think Glendening is that.

But something that helps Glendening is that Sullivan doesn't use Rodrigues on the PK, and I don't recall him using McCann much recently either. You need another center PKing option if you get rid of Jankowski because Sullivan doesn't have Rodrigues or ERod as PKers.

I don't think BART needs to be kept together. They are playing well and it's not a problem if they end up staying together, but I wouldn't make decisions to keep that line together either. Blueger and Tanev were playing well before ZAR got back and I'd expect them to keep playing well without him.

With a guy like Glendening, you go with McCann/Zucker - Blueger - Tanev as a more traditional L3 and ZAR - Glendening - Angello as a more traditional defensive, physical, grinding L4 instead of a L3A and L3B. I don't think there is a problem either way.

But I'm not going to die on the hill for Glendening. I think he's a solid defensive 4C who has been stuck in an absolute shit situation for the last 5 years or so, so his fancy stats are going to take a pounding. If there is something better, I'm all for it, but I've only seen more expensive suggestions with more question marks about fit.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

The great thing is that if Crosby stays above a point per game this season then he will be the all time leader for most season's in a row above a PPG. That is pretty impressive to be the all time leader in that category. Speaks to his consistent brilliance.

With Malkin, Crosby, and Letang playing at such a high level now tells me it is time to go all in for the Cup. Wish Rutherford was the GM because I know he would add a top 6 forward to this group. Imagine something like this with the way out core is playing now.

Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
Forsberg/Rakell-Malkin Kapanen
Zucker-McCann-Rodriguez
ZAR-Blueger-Tanev

Dumoulin-Letang
Pettersson-Marino
Matheson-Ceci

Jarry

That would be a strong contender for the Cup. Honestly you need to go for it while your core still can play like this. We might not get a core like this ever again. How many teams have had a Crosby, Malkin, and Letang type all at the same time? Don't want to be the Leafs with 50+ years of searching for a Cup. Got to go for it while you got it. Use POJ and Poulin to find a good top 6 forward to add to this team. Add more to it if needed if you do go for someone like a Forsberg or someone like one of the Flames big boys. The future is now so sell all futures to go all in.

You might be the only guy rn who i've seen that wants JR back. Maybe it's coincidence, but the team has a better record since he left

 

[mpp9]

Yeah I agree. Though frankly I'm fine enough with it simply because if this team loses like the only viable option for Malkin's wing to injury it would be, uh... bad.

In the regular season, cool. But Kap is a game breaker with his breakaway speed. PK is a great means to use that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't think BART needs to be kept together. They are playing well and it's not a problem if they end up staying together, but I wouldn't make decisions to keep that line together either. Blueger and Tanev were playing well before ZAR got back and I'd expect them to keep playing well without him.

With a guy like Glendening, you go with McCann/Zucker - Blueger - Tanev as a more traditional L3 and ZAR - Glendening - Angello as a more traditional defensive, physical, grinding L4 instead of a L3A and L3B. I don't think there is a problem either way.

But I'm not going to die on the hill for Glendening. I think he's a solid defensive 4C who has been stuck in an absolute shit situation for the last 5 years or so, so his fancy stats are going to take a pounding. If there is something better, I'm all for it, but I've only seen more expensive suggestions with more question marks about fit.

I'd also be fine with doing this for the record. I actually think this is probably an easier way to address the lineup because McCann-Blueger-Tanev is absolutely a good 3rd line, but I'm just very skeptical that Sullivan would actually do this.

Something like McCann-Blueger-Tanev and ZAR-Glendening-Rodrgiues is a very easy way to set up the bottom-6 and have it work IMO. I just can't see the guy making the lines doing that. I think it's more likely that McCann ends up with Glendening and Rodrigues and BART stays together in that setup, and I don't like the look of those lines as much as I like ZAR and McCann flipped.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

In the regular season, cool. But Kap is a game breaker with his breakaway speed. PK is a great means to use that.

I don't at all disagree. I think he'd be great there and I'm not under this weird impression that so many others seem to be that you have to like... be a specialized PKer and be coached up for months to do it. It's pretty straightforward shit... especially when you can skate like a demon.

But it's a cost benefit thing. I know injuries are gonna happen regardless and you can't fret over what hasn't even happened. But I dunno. There are literally no other good options for Malkin's line on the team. Well... that he's ALLOWED to play with.