Proposal: PIT - TBL (Post-Expansion)

[tjs*]

I think if you're talking 1V1 trades, then yeah, there are better players out there to be had for TB.

This gives you a lower tier defender, but it also gives you depth scoring which is something TB dearly, dearly needs. The first can be used elsewhere to fill gaps.

Johnson is currently tied for second on the team in goals and is fourth in points - how does subtracting him not hurt our scoring depth? And which do you think is a more important hole to have filled: 2C (which means 1C more often than not given Stamkos' history), or third-line wing?

And finally that first will be a late first in a weak draft. So you're talking about hurting our scoring depth, creating a massive hole at top six center, and giving a PPG playoff scorer to a conference rival in exchange for a defenseman who would be behind Koekkoek on the depth chart, a third-line winger, and what amounts to a second round pick in a normal year. I'm sorry but I just don't see that trade making us a better team.

 

[jboyd919]

It's the sample size. We need to get better defensively, not worse. Would you feel comfortable with Pouliot in your top 4 yet? Why exactly is he a better fit than Koekkoek? Having to expose him in the ED makes it that much worse.



Vatanen, Ceci, Matheson, Beaulieu. Just to name a few

You think Namestnikov would be a good #2 C? I'm highly skeptical of the credibility of everything you just said now. Namesy is currently fighting to be tendered a qualifying offer.

There is just so much here to disagree with.

I'll give you Matheson, but Vatenan, Ceci, and Beaulieu all have worse underlying numbers than Pouliot.

 

[Riptide]

I think if you're talking 1V1 trades, then yeah, there are better players out there to be had for TB.

I honestly do not see a 1-1 trade happening. It's possible, but I think between Tampa's cap issues, how inconsistent he seems to have been over the last few years and how close TJ is to being a UFA, that at best you see a smaller package with better assets then the OP.

This gives you a lower tier defender, but it also gives you depth scoring which is something TB dearly, dearly needs. The first can be used elsewhere to fill gaps.

As I said in one of my other posts. The OPs proposal (even something based around it), would heavily depend on what Yzerman thinks of DP. The rest of the OPs deal is depth moves and could be changed up slightly. But DP would be a key part and what SY thinks of him would be very important. While PIT fans have (for the most part) given up on him becoming a top 4D, one never really knows how some players are valued. I mean we see guys HF deems washed up get moved or signed for far more then anyone on here believes they're worth. We also see prospects occasionally go for next to nothing.

I'll give you Matheson, but Vatenan, Ceci, and Beaulieu all have worse underlying numbers than Pouliot.

They also have a larger sample size and a better history of production then Pouliot. Advanced stats are fine and dandy... but sample size is a key part to how valued they are, and ultimately, one has to produce at the NHL level. And Pouliot hasn't done enough here to overcome/shadow his deficiencies.

 

[jboyd919]

I honestly do not see a 1-1 trade happening. It's possible, but I think between Tampa's cap issues and how close TJ is to being a UFA, that at best you see a smaller package with better assets then the OP.



As I said in one of my other posts. The OPs proposal (even something based around it), would heavily depend on what Yzerman thinks of DP. The rest of the OPs deal is depth moves and could be changed up slightly. But DP would be a key part and what SY thinks of him would be very important. While PIT fans have (for the most part) given up on him becoming a top 4D, one never really knows how some players are valued. I mean we see guys HF deems washed up get moved or signed for far more then anyone on here believes they're worth. We also see prospects occasionally go for next to nothing.

Yeah I'm one of the few Pens fans who think DP is fine in the lineup and could still be 2nd pairing

 

[Rschmitz]

The trade proposed is for post expansion draft. And yes, I actually do want Pouliot in the Pens 2nd pairing, or at the least 3rd pairing. I hate that he doesn't get playing time. I think he's looked fine when in the game. Not saying hes a better fit than Koekkoek, but I think Pouliot's addition can help give the Bolts 3 puck movers.

WHAT? HAHAHA fighting to be tendered an offer?! On what basis?! The guy produces/supresses shots at a 2nd to 1st line level. Is on pace for 35ish points while being yoyo'd up and down the lineup because Coop is a moron. Dude already has great chemistry with Kuch. At 5v5, he's got the 2nd most scoring chances for at forward. (also a +62 on scoring chances differential). +6 on 5v5 goal differential on a team where the Goalies have been struggling. Dude is fine and could easily slot in at 2C. Pens will take Namestnikov off your hands.

He'll be exposed in the ED and likely be passed over for Killorn. This has pretty much been the consensus for a while now. He's too weak to win board battles and he's not good at faceoffs, nor does he have an NHL caliber shot. Him as a #2 would be scary. Point would be the likely successor of the second line role, but you are forgetting we still have Filppula.

I'm not sure you could find a single Lightning fan who'd like to see Namestnikov as a #2.

 

[Butchered]

Johnson is currently tied for second on the team in goals and is fourth in points - how does subtracting him not hurt our scoring depth? And which do you think is a more important hole to have filled: 2C (which means 1C more often than not given Stamkos' history), or third-line wing?

And finally that first will be a late first in a weak draft. So you're talking about hurting our scoring depth, creating a massive hole at top six center, and giving a PPG playoff scorer to a conference rival in exchange for a defenseman who would be behind Koekkoek on the depth chart, a third-line winger, and what amounts to a second round pick in a normal year. I'm sorry but I just don't see that trade making us a better team.

I wrote out a long, condescending post but I figured I'd try something different.

Tell me how Tyler Johnson has made this team better this year. You tell me how he's making us a better team right now. Tell me how he's stepped up this year in the absence of Stamkos. Tell me how he's playing himself into a contract earning more than he is right now. Explain to me how we'd be any worse off if Stamkos were on the shelf and we didn't have Tyler Johnson. We'd be last in our conference instead of like 5th to last? We'd be at the bottom of the standings instead of almost at the bottom?

I've made my stance on this trade quite clear. Tyler Johnson does not stir the drink in TB. He is a piece. Not the core. I like Tyler Johnson. I do. I think his story is great and I think he's done great things for a small undrafted guy. He's been a good player outside of his big year in 14-15.

Puliot gives you a solid defender to slot in somewhere along the bottom 4 that you can possibly grow. At the very least he jumps behind Koekkoek on the depth chart, ahead of guys like Dotchin and Witowski. Rust is a speedster that will contribute offensively (again, something we need) and could compliment guys like Drouin, Kucherov, Palat, Stamkos, etc. The first can be used elsewhere or pick up a guy they like that maybe slipped in the draft.

Would I much rather deal Johnson straight for Vatanen? Yup. Would I take this deal if that one wasn't on the table? Yup.

 

[Butchered]

He'll be exposed in the ED and likely be passed over for Killorn. This has pretty much been the consensus for a while now. He's too weak to win board battles and he's not good at faceoffs, nor does he have an NHL caliber shot. Him as a #2 would be scary. Point would be the likely successor of the second line role, but you are forgetting we still have Filppula.

I'm not sure you could find a single Lightning fan who'd like to see Namestnikov as a #2.

I will agree here. I thought coming into this year that Namestnikov would eventually slot in somewhere on the second line, but he's really regressed this year. The whole team is a dump though, so I'd probably give him another year if I were TB.

 

[Riptide]

Johnson is currently tied for second on the team in goals and is fourth in points - how does subtracting him not hurt our scoring depth? And which do you think is a more important hole to have filled: 2C (which means 1C more often than not given Stamkos' history), or third-line wing?

<snip>I'm sorry but I just don't see that trade making us a better team.

I do not think there's a deal out there that Tampa will receive that involves TJ going the other way that "makes them a better team".

Without making a single move (and before the ED), Tampa has 13m to sign Drouin, Johnson, Palat, Sustr and filling out the roster (2F, 2D, 1G). If those 5 depth guys all make the league min, that's 2.875m. So now they're down to 10m to sign those 4. The ED may help them depending on who they take (Killorn vs Namestnikov - I think it'll be one of those two). I mean it'll suck either way, but if AN gets picked, at least that'll free up 4.45m to help fill out the roster.

What hasn't really been discussed in this thread (and I get why) is whether it's Palat or Johnson who is the priority for TB to sign. Wingers are a dime a dozen. Good ones, less so, but still much easier to replace in general. Personally, given TB's ****** situation, I'd be focusing on signing TJ and hoping that Killorn gets picked in the draft. And if the budget didn't allow it (which is likely), trade Palat for the best deal possible. They won't get the return they'd get for Johnson, but replacing him would be a heck of a lot easier then replacing TJ.

 

[Rschmitz]

I think if you're talking 1V1 trades, then yeah, there are better players out there to be had for TB.

This gives you a lower tier defender, but it also gives you depth scoring which is something TB dearly, dearly needs. The first can be used elsewhere to fill gaps.

We don't need to trade for scoring depth. Bring up Erne and sign Gusev and we'll have three scoring lines.

The problem with our scoring is that we've lost Stamkos and Callahan for the season and TJ/Palat haven't picked up the slack. You don't trade a guy like TJ for bottom line scoring depth. We need to fill a hole on the team with someone who is cost controlled, not easily acquired pieces.

 

[Rschmitz]

I will agree here. I thought coming into this year that Namestnikov would eventually slot in somewhere on the second line, but he's really regressed this year. The whole team is a dump though, so I'd probably give him another year if I were TB.

He looked good early too! He's one of the the players we were counting on for scoring depth

 

[Butchered]

We don't need to trade for scoring depth. Bring up Erne and sign Gusev and we'll have three scoring lines.

The problem with our scoring is that we've lost Stamkos and Callahan for the season and TJ/Palat haven't picked up the slack. You don't trade a guy like TJ for bottom line scoring depth. We need to fill a hole on the team with someone who is cost controlled, not easily acquired pieces.

So you fix the scoring by bringing in two guys who have collectively scored 0 NHL points.

I don't disagree with the logic. I get what you're saying. I think Erne is a lock for the team next year and I would absolutely love to see Gusev come over.

But you're not trading TJ for "bottom line scoring depth". Rust could swap in and out between 2nd and 3rd liner and you're still getting a solid defender back. Not as solid as Vatanen or those other guys, but you're still getting a guy that slots in better than anyone in the organization that isn't a regular NHL player at this point not named Koekkoek. I'd play him easily over Sustr, Witowski or Dotchin. Easily.

I know there's a lot of TJ watchdogs here and pretty much nothing other than Vatanen is acceptable, but this would be a solid deal for TB.

 

[Riptide]

We don't need to trade for scoring depth. Bring up Erne and sign Gusev and we'll have three scoring lines.

The problem with our scoring is that we've lost Stamkos and Callahan for the season and TJ/Palat haven't picked up the slack. You don't trade a guy like TJ for bottom line scoring depth. We need to fill a hole on the team with someone who is cost controlled, not easily acquired pieces.

Rust in his first full season (and some of that away from Crosby/Malkin) is on pace for 20g/40pts. That's not "bottom line scoring depth" - that's actually a lot closer to being a 2nd line winger then a 4th line player. And while I think highly of Erne (I acquired him in my very deep keeper league several years ago), he has a lot to prove before he's close to doing what Rust is currently doing in the NHL.

 

[Rschmitz]

I do not think there's a deal out there that Tampa will receive that involves TJ going the other way that "makes them a better team".

Without making a single move (and before the ED), Tampa has 13m to sign Drouin, Johnson, Palat, Sustr and filling out the roster (2F, 2D, 1G). If those 5 depth guys all make the league min, that's 2.875m. So now they're down to 10m to sign those 4. The ED may help them depending on who they take (Killorn vs Namestnikov - I think it'll be one of those two). I mean it'll suck either way, but if AN gets picked, at least that'll free up 4.45m to help fill out the roster.

What hasn't really been discussed in this thread (and I get why) is whether it's Palat or Johnson who is the priority for TB to sign. Wingers are a dime a dozen. Good ones, less so, but still much easier to replace in general. Personally, given TB's ****** situation, I'd be focusing on signing TJ and hoping that Killorn gets picked in the draft. And if the budget didn't allow it (which is likely), trade Palat for the best deal possible. They won't get the return they'd get for Johnson, but replacing him would be a heck of a lot easier then replacing TJ.

You actually know a good bit about our situation...

The reason most would rather see TJ as opposed to Palat dealt, is because we have fairly decent center depth, and probably because we can get more for TJ. There are reservations about his health, he hasn't been the same since he broke his wrist in the SCF.

 

[Butchered]

He looked good early too! He's one of the the players we were counting on for scoring depth

I know I'm hard on Johnson, but everyone has wet the bed this year outside of Drouin and Kuch. Nametnikov is one of the most visible bed wetters, lol.

I certainly think Namestnikov is serviceable and he's a good bottom 6 guy, but watching him play this year has been a disappointment to say the very least.

 

[Rschmitz]

Rust in his first full season (and some of that away from Crosby/Malkin) is on pace for 20g/40pts. That's not "bottom line scoring depth".

He'll be on our third line is what I mean, not bottom line.

I'm not trying to **** on Rust, I promise

 

[Butchered]

You actually know a good bit about our situation...

The reason most would rather see TJ as opposed to Palat dealt, is because we have fairly decent center depth, and probably because we can get more for TJ. There are reservations about his health, he hasn't been the same since he broke his wrist in the SCF.

Seconded. I would much rather see Johnson be dealt over Palat. Johnson has the flashier goal totals over his career,

I feel like Palat provides something on the defensive side that Johnson can't provide, honestly. Not to say that Johnson is a slouch defensively, I just think Palat is really, really good.

 

[Rschmitz]

So you fix the scoring by bringing in two guys who have collectively scored 0 NHL points.

I don't disagree with the logic. I get what you're saying. I think Erne is a lock for the team next year and I would absolutely love to see Gusev come over.

But you're not trading TJ for "bottom line scoring depth". Rust could swap in and out between 2nd and 3rd liner and you're still getting a solid defender back. Not as solid as Vatanen or those other guys, but you're still getting a guy that slots in better than anyone in the organization that isn't a regular NHL player at this point not named Koekkoek. I'd play him easily over Sustr, Witowski or Dotchin. Easily.

I know there's a lot of TJ watchdogs here and pretty much nothing other than Vatanen is acceptable, but this would be a solid deal for TB.

Bottom liner was a slip of the tongue. I do think Rust has value, I just think his role would be easier to fill than a top 4 D role.

If you were to tell me there was a plan to upgrade the D at some point in time, I would be more willing to get behind this deal.

I also think DP would be a very poor target. Though, I'm not sure what I'd want instead that would make the trade mutually beneficial.

 

[jboyd919]

He'll be exposed in the ED and likely be passed over for Killorn. This has pretty much been the consensus for a while now. He's too weak to win board battles and he's not good at faceoffs, nor does he have an NHL caliber shot. Him as a #2 would be scary. Point would be the likely successor of the second line role, but you are forgetting we still have Filppula.

I'm not sure you could find a single Lightning fan who'd like to see Namestnikov as a #2.

Nah I didn't forget about Filp. If faceoffs and board battles are your gripe with him. Pittsburgh will gladly take him. Watcha want?

 

[Riptide]

You actually know a good bit about our situation...

Thanks. I try to be as informed as possible if I'm going to debate something with people. I put my foot in my mouth enough as it is, I don't need to make it any worse.

And Tampa makes it easy. They're a good hockey team with a promising future. I also thoroughly enjoyed my time there this fall when I managed to catch a couple games.

The reason most would rather see TJ as opposed to Palat dealt, is because we have fairly decent center depth, and probably because we can get more for TJ. There are reservations about his health, he hasn't been the same since he broke his wrist in the SCF.

Fair enough. I'm just of the mindset that I'd rather have a team made up of 6 high quality centers with a couple playing wing, then having 6 high quality wingers, and having a big hole down the middle somewhere. Centers can play wing... but most wingers cannot play center - at least not effectively.

If losing to Pittsburgh this summer teaches TB fans anything, it should be the importance of quality center depth. You can get wingers like Rust or Sheary or whomever from many difference places, and hoping for one (or more) to step up isn't the end of the world. But having those 3 centers who can play at a high level gives the coach so many different options on how he wants to structure the lineup (stacked top 6 vs balanced top 9).

 

[Butchered]

Bottom liner was a slip of the tongue. I do think Rust has value, I just think his role would be easier to fill than a top 4 D role.

If you were to tell me there was a plan to upgrade the D at some point in time, I would be more willing to get behind this deal.

I also think DP would be a very poor target. Though, I'm not sure what I'd want instead that would make the trade mutually beneficial.

Sure. I'm not really sold on DP, either. I think he's a better option that what's behind Koekkoek right now, but there's definitely better targets out there.

I think the key is to bring in what you can while still being flexible if you need to. Bringing in a guy like Vatanen will attach $5M to your cap, which could hamper your ability to even replace Johnson in a 1V1 deal. If Yzerman isn't able to move Flip, Coburn, Garrison or Callahan, then there's very little room to replace what you lost from Johnson by gaining Vatanen. You then have to rely even heavier on guys like Point and Erne to contribute.

Yzerman is not in an enviable position, I know that much.

 

[jboyd919]

I do not think there's a deal out there that Tampa will receive that involves TJ going the other way that "makes them a better team".

Without making a single move (and before the ED), Tampa has 13m to sign Drouin, Johnson, Palat, Sustr and filling out the roster (2F, 2D, 1G). If those 5 depth guys all make the league min, that's 2.875m. So now they're down to 10m to sign those 4. The ED may help them depending on who they take (Killorn vs Namestnikov - I think it'll be one of those two). I mean it'll suck either way, but if AN gets picked, at least that'll free up 4.45m to help fill out the roster.

What hasn't really been discussed in this thread (and I get why) is whether it's Palat or Johnson who is the priority for TB to sign. Wingers are a dime a dozen. Good ones, less so, but still much easier to replace in general. Personally, given TB's ****** situation, I'd be focusing on signing TJ and hoping that Killorn gets picked in the draft. And if the budget didn't allow it (which is likely), trade Palat for the best deal possible. They won't get the return they'd get for Johnson, but replacing him would be a heck of a lot easier then replacing TJ.

No way, Palat is like Marian Hossa 2.0. Palat is far more valuable to Tampa than Johnson. Sportsnet had him ranked as no. 12 LW in the entire NHL coming into this season.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/ranking-top-20-left-wingers-nhl-numbers/

Johnson is good, but he is definitely not Palat good.

 

[Rschmitz]

Nah I didn't forget about Filp. If faceoffs and board battles are your gripe with him. Pittsburgh will gladly take him. Watcha want?

The earliest pick you'd give for him. You're pretty high on him, so I'll let you determine that

 

[jboyd919]

Thanks. I try to be as informed as possible if I'm going to debate something with people. I put my foot in my mouth enough as it is, I don't need to make it any worse.

And Tampa makes it easy. They're a good hockey team with a promising future. I also thoroughly enjoyed my time there this fall when I managed to catch a couple games.



Fair enough. I'm just of the mindset that I'd rather have a team made up of 6 high quality centers with a couple playing wing, then having 6 high quality wingers, and having a big hole down the middle somewhere. Centers can play wing... but most wingers cannot play center - at least not effectively.

If losing to Pittsburgh this summer teaches TB fans anything, it should be the importance of quality center depth. You can get wingers like Rust or Sheary or whomever from many difference places, and hoping for one (or more) to step up isn't the end of the world. But having those 3 centers who can play at a high level gives the coach so many different options on how he wants to structure the lineup (stacked top 6 vs balanced top 9).

Whaaaat? Hahahah no way. Pittsburgh won because they exposed the **** out of Tampa's defense and Cooper refused to make adjustments to his game.

 

[Riptide]

No way, Palat is like Marian Hossa 2.0. Palat is far more valuable to Tampa than Johnson. Sportsnet had him ranked as no. 12 LW in the entire NHL coming into this season.

Johnson is good, but he is definitely not Palat good.

Perhaps. I just place a lot more value on a center then a winger. Could TB replace Palat easily? No, probably not. But finding quality cheap(er) wingers isn't all that hard. There's usually a handful of teams that would trade a lesser LW as part of a package for Palat to upgrade their winger depth.

I also have less faith then others on Namestnikov being able to replace TJ at this point. It could be something that TB just has to suck up (or pray that Point can do it), but it's not something I'd like to depend on if I were them.

 

[Rschmitz]

Sure. I'm not really sold on DP, either. I think he's a better option that what's behind Koekkoek right now, but there's definitely better targets out there.

I think the key is to bring in what you can while still being flexible if you need to. Bringing in a guy like Vatanen will attach $5M to your cap, which could hamper your ability to even replace Johnson in a 1V1 deal. If Yzerman isn't able to move Flip, Coburn, Garrison or Callahan, then there's very little room to replace what you lost from Johnson by gaining Vatanen. You then have to rely even heavier on guys like Point and Erne to contribute.

Yzerman is not in an enviable position, I know that much.

I'm actually not a big Vatanen fan, I think it would be a very bad pickup depending on the cost. I'm more hoping we can pick up a guy like Matheson or Ceci who are solid two way players and more affordable. Beaulieu would also be a good pickup. Montreal has five top 4 defenders before even factoring in Sergachev, so they should be willing to move a D for some forward help.

In my dreams we sign Shattenkirk