Confirmed with Link: Pierre Dorion Scheduled To Speak (11am, Sept. 23rd)

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

He could have signed Stone long term after his ELC, at the time I remember thinking that bridge deal seemed so short sighted, the contract was ending at the same time all the other core players contracts were ending making it impossible to re sign everyone. If Melnyk wasn’t willing to pay for that then he should have traded him when he was an RFA at the end of the bridge deal before signing him to that ridiculous one year deal. Even though they acquired Duchene as a “go for it” move earlier in the year the team still finished in the basement of the standings so trading him made way more sense than signing him to a one year deal walking him right to UFA. I honestly don’t know how you can be happy with the way Stone was handled.

It seems like they weren't signing anyone long term at the time, so I wonder if he would have even had the green light from the top.

Didn't we go like 5 years or so without handing out any long term contracts around that time? Plus the obvious can kicking with the bad Zibanejad trade.

Sort of seems like the cost cutting was planned years in advance of it actually happening.

 

[Leafmealone11]

Actually, yes. Like I said, Stone is a much better player than Pacioretty, and they got a better return, which doesnt make sense.

Suzuki is/was a better prospect than Brannstrom, Tatar didnt fit in Vegas but he is still a very solid player too, then the picks. They had a better return for a worse player, in a similar situation.

Suzuki was not a better prospect at the time he was traded and the pick being higher could be that Montreal got paid extra to take on a cap dump called Tatar. Or perhaps Vegas is all out of giving up firsts and prospects
I mean finding the best trade any team has made in 8 years than complaining that that is the bar makes no sense and it’s un realistic
The sens had a pending UFA and turned him into a blue chip prospect, that is a home run, great trade, lucky day, good thing

 

[Leafmealone11]

This is amazing news. The only way they could know this is by tampering with a player under contract, so hey, let's go to the league and see what our giant compensation will be.

Of course, they did get approval to speak with him about an extension before making the trade, at which point Dorion had already caved to accepting pennies on the dollar.

Having watched Brannstrom in Belleville a few times, his defensive game has all the worst attributes of Karlsson in his own zone. Since he gives away a lot of size to most forwards, he has to evade contact when trying to move the puck, causing numerous turnovers and lost battles, and he doesn't physically stand up to anybody around the net. So he doesn't do the penalty kill, and the games I saw he got smoked several times and looked like a pouty Daigle from the old days when he got up, shocked that the stuff he did at 18 to avoid contacts doesn't work at the pro level.

When healthy (for less than half the season) he did put up points, and has some offensive skills. If he lands permanently in the NHL at some point, his ceiling in a perfect scenario could be like Krug's with even less jam. A trade off in value at best.

For this we gave up a guy who would make any Team Canada over the next bunch of years, has 29 points in his last 27 playoff games, and has been a Selke finalist.

Aside from the completely unexpected drop in San Jose giving us the #3 pick, Dorion's yield for Karlsson, Stone and Duchesne would hsvr boiled down to prospects Norris and Brannstrom, and a couple of late 1sts. A terrible failure that set the franchise back years, and gutted the team for several extra years of rebuild, with no marquee talent to keep fan interest alive.

They could have known when Dorion said “if I get him to sign a contracts with you what will you give me”

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Justement... that sounds like an employee catering to his boss. And this is not a regular boss we're talking about but an eccentric billionaire that seems to be hell to work for. But he has the money and the positions to offer. Dorion might have never gotten that opportunity anywhere else.

It seems obvious that he has been instructed to boost Melnyk's image after it got damaged (by Melnyk himself) and that's also probably what earned him the extension. Keep in mind that most fans don't follow their team like hardcore fans do, analyzing in depht what is going on. They might not know that a pick given up in a trade was for financial reasons

Don't want to be captain obvious or anything but that's how the real world works. It's really foolish to expect to hear everybody's true thoughts through the medias. It's a game of serving people's interest. Money talks. Dorion is Melnyk's puppet, even more than a GM would normally be because of his inexperience at this kind of position. You might hear "true thoughts" from people with "absolute money and power" like Melnyk and Trump and it's not always pretty.



Karlsson's trade looks more like a grand slam than a solid move now... And Josh Norris is not a decent prospect.

I don't disagree and am not surprised by any means. I guess I just think he takes it further than most GM's because of the reality of the financial situation he faces and he says things that are easily verified as not true and it has hurt his credibility.

 

[Daffy]

And this is bad why?

I didn't say bad. But I'm not super high on Thomson. Think better players were available. I'm just saying he isn't afraid to reach. And our track record in the 1st round is iffy.

 

[IlTerrifico]

They could have known when Dorion said “if I get him to sign a contracts with you what will you give me”

Maybe. And when they said 'an undersized defenseman who has a 50/50 chance at playing in the NHL regularly and being soft in his own zone' he should have called many other teams and gotten better.

You don't think teams like Nashville would have given player + prospect + 1st with Stone signed? Top talent hasn't yielded so little since Boston traded Thornton for scraps, and this was Dorion's greatest day as a GM? Even better than Zibby plus 2nd for fading Brassard?

 

[Leafmealone11]

Maybe. And when they said 'an undersized defenseman who has a 50/50 chance at playing in the NHL regularly and being soft in his own zone' he should have called many other teams and gotten better.

You don't think teams like Nashville would have given player + prospect + 1st with Stone signed? Top talent hasn't yielded so little since Boston traded Thornton for scraps, and this was Dorion's greatest day as a GM? Even better than Zibby plus 2nd for fading Brassard?

He didn’t want to sign in Nashville the sens didn’t get to trade a ‘signed Stone’ they traded him to the place he wanted to play and he signed with them. Your talking the value of having Mark Stone under contract for years and you should be talking trade deadline soon to be UFA Mark Stone.
For some reason there is a refusal to acknowledge and accept his status at the trade deadline

 

[IlTerrifico]

He didn’t want to sign in Nashville the sens didn’t get to trade a ‘signed Stone’ they traded him to the place he wanted to play and he signed with them. Your talking the value of having Mark Stone under contract for years and you should be talking trade deadline soon to be UFA Mark Stone.
For some reason there is a refusal to acknowledge and accept his status at the trade deadline

How does anybody but the GM know where he was willing to sign? Stone is not a d*ck; his conditions would likely only be that it be to a playoff team, and MAYBE a reasonable climate. If he was being that slimey, you could still trade him for the balance of that season and get at least as much as an undersized defenseman prospect. Plus, you disclose his terms to the fanbase afterwards, and do far better in the P.R. battle.

Total failure of a deal. Again.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

How does anybody but the GM know where he was willing to sign? Stone is not a d*ck; his conditions would likely only be that it be to a playoff team, and MAYBE a reasonable climate. If he was being that slimey, you could still trade him for the balance of that season and get at least as much as an undersized defenseman prospect. Plus, you disclose his terms to the fanbase afterwards, and do far better in the P.R. battle.

Total failure of a deal. Again.

Lebrun, Dreger etc have confirmed he was only willing to sign with Vegas.

 

[Leafmealone11]

How does anybody but the GM know where he was willing to sign? Stone is not a d*ck; his conditions would likely only be that it be to a playoff team, and MAYBE a reasonable climate. If he was being that slimey, you could still trade him for the balance of that season and get at least as much as an undersized defenseman prospect. Plus, you disclose his terms to the fanbase afterwards, and do far better in the P.R. battle.

Total failure of a deal. Again.

So you think a hockey player that for the first time as a 27 year old man gets to choose where he lives and works would be a dick for living and working in the city of his choice?
“Stone don’t be a dick sacrifice the next 8 years of your life so the sens can try to try squeeze a draft pick out of a few more teams”
If he was being how slimey only signing where he wants?
Can’t tell if serious

And yes an undersized offensive dman would never make it in today’s NHL.....

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The team (Dorion) is on record with stating that Melnyk and Dorion decided to rebuild during their Feb 2018 meeting in Barbados. They absolutely knew they were rebuilding when they signed Stone to a 1 year contract extension and well before the deadline when they traded him, Dorion just thought he could be part of that rebuild.

He Hoped he could sign him.. my guess is he hoped Stone would drop his price or Melnyk would up his ceiling.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I still think Stone was not in it for the rebuild. It was a formality to say he wanted to stay and that he loved the city of Ottawa. He probably knew there was a good chance of going to Vegas, and they were already contenders.

Why risk it when you never know how a rebuild goes... especially with a very cheap owner.

It was a no brainer

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

He Hoped he could sign him.. my guess is he hoped Stone would drop his price or Melnyk would up his ceiling.

Let's hope he learned his lesson and stops expecting big long term contracts to be backed financially going forward.

 

[IlTerrifico]

So you think a hockey player that for the first time as a 27 year old man gets to choose where he lives and works would be a dick for living and working in the city of his choice?
“Stone don’t be a dick sacrifice the next 8 years of your life so the sens can try to try squeeze a draft pick out of a few more teams”
If he was being how slimey only signing where he wants?
Can’t tell if serious

And yes an undersized offensive dman would never make it in today’s NHL.....

Oh sure, plenty of GMs at the deadline ask players to tell them the one city they will play in, and then try to make a deal with the one team, after they let them talk to the player. Incredible leverage.

A GM might accommodate the request for one of the 16 playoff teams, and an indication that the player would sign with a certain group of them longer term if that adds value.

We got Brannstrom, the uber prospect picked 4 spots later in the draft than Logan Brown a season later, for a Team Canada caliber player. Nobody has done worse at the deadline for a 1st line player, signed or unsigned, in 20 years.

If this team had made no trades in the 8-10 years Dorion had influence on transactions and signed its players, we would have Bishop, Lehner, Karlsson, Stone, Zibby, Pageau, probably Chabot since he was a late round pick, and any other adds made via the draft along the way. Other than the fluke 3rd overall that Karlsson yielded, what exactly did moving all that talent yield? Total ineptitude.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

We got Brannstrom, the uber prospect picked 4 spots later in the draft than Logan Brown a season later, for a Team Canada caliber player. Nobody has done worse at the deadline for a 1st line player, signed or unsigned, in 20 years.

.

that’s a ridiculous and incorrect statement. Prospects like Brannstrom are rarely ever traded at the deadline. You’re talking about a guy who many considered a top 3 d prospect and top 15 overall prospect league wide

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Oh sure, plenty of GMs at the deadline ask players to tell them the one city they will play in, and then try to make a deal with the one team, after they let them talk to the player. Incredible leverage.

A GM might accommodate the request for one of the 16 playoff teams, and an indication that the player would sign with a certain group of them longer term if that adds value.

We got Brannstrom, the uber prospect picked 4 spots later in the draft than Logan Brown a season later, for a Team Canada caliber player. Nobody has done worse at the deadline for a 1st line player, signed or unsigned, in 20 years.

If this team had made no trades in the 8-10 years Dorion had influence on transactions and signed its players, we would have Bishop, Lehner, Karlsson, Stone, Zibby, Pageau, probably Chabot since he was a late round pick, and any other adds made via the draft along the way. Other than the fluke 3rd overall that Karlsson yielded, what exactly did moving all that talent yield? Total ineptitude.

 

[Sweatred]

Can’t imagine what Stone would like about Vegas ... it must suck to be a pro athlete in a town like that with all those swanky restaurants and hotels. He must be bored stiff. I bet he misses The Keg and Mt. Pakenham.

 

[Rodzilla]

Suzuki was not a better prospect at the time he was traded and the pick being higher could be that Montreal got paid extra to take on a cap dump called Tatar. Or perhaps Vegas is all out of giving up firsts and prospects
I mean finding the best trade any team has made in 8 years than complaining that that is the bar makes no sense and it’s un realistic
The sens had a pending UFA and turned him into a blue chip prospect, that is a home run, great trade, lucky day, good thing

uh yes, he was.

spin it like you want that trade wasnt good, like many of his trades, they also said, « in season extension » doesnt mean he wasnt willing to sign elsewhere. But hey, agree to disagree.

 

[Sweatred]

uh yes, he was.

spin it like you want that trade wasnt good, like many of his trades, they also said, « in season extension » doesnt mean he wasnt willing to sign elsewhere. But hey, agree to disagree.

4000 posts claimed the EK deal was terrible too. There isn’t any value in analyzing a trade for a star in his prime vs a 20 year old dman until at least 4 years into the Stone x8 year deal. For all we know the Dallas 2ND becomes the best player in the trade.

 

[Rodzilla]

4000 posts claimed the EK deal was terrible too. There isn’t any value in analyzing a trade for a star in his prime vs a 20 year old dman until at least 4 years into the Stone x8 year deal. For all we know the Dallas 2ND becomes the best player in the trade.

EK trade is good now, still could’ve got a better return, and its a fact. When he was traded Karlsson was viewed as one of, if not the best dmen in the game.

I do agree that its useless tho, but I was answering to someone praising Dorion, let’s not act like he’s anything special. Also I am just comparing returns to inferior players. I agree with you on that.

also today I was listening to the french interview, someone asked Dorion who the kids could rely on for some structure and advices, he answered « on themselves » lmao

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Graeme working hard to not get free seats...

Thoughts in Bold: Dorion Speaks -- Media Availability and on TSN 1200's 'In the Box'

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

EK trade is good now, still could’ve got a better return, and its a fact. When he was traded Karlsson was viewed as one of, if not the best dmen in the game.

I do agree that its useless tho, but I was answering to someone praising Dorion, let’s not act like he’s anything special. Also I am just comparing returns to inferior players. I agree with you on that.

also today I was listening to the french interview, someone asked Dorion who the kids could rely on for some structure and advices, he answered « on themselves » lmao

How is that a fact

 

[Micklebot]

4000 posts claimed the EK deal was terrible too. There isn’t any value in analyzing a trade for a star in his prime vs a 20 year old dman until at least 4 years into the Stone x8 year deal. For all we know the Dallas 2ND becomes the best player in the trade.

Not sure I can get behind the implied logic here. A 2nd has an abstract value at the time of the trade, if it goes on to exceed that value, it doesn't mean you got better value out of the trade, because if that were the case, the 1st we could could be seen as a worse piece than the 2nd if the 2nd round pick ends up being a better player than the 1st round pick.

I think there are two distinct things to evaluate with any trade; 1. Did you maximize the return. and 2. Did it work out in the end.

I'd argue Dorion got decent value trading for Duchene but the deal clearly didn't work out as hoped. Alternatively, an argument can be made that the value he got for Karlsson was lacking (some would disagree, but that's not my point), but so far it's worked out tremendously (yet to be determined I suppose, because we've really only gotten on ice value out of Tierney and DeMelo).

In the end, how it works out is the most important when it comes to winning games, but the least predictable, and as such the hardest to causally link to good decision making or a job well done. Do you hire a GM who got good end results, or one who maximized returns and who's process displayed a sound logic. I'd like to think the latter GM is more likely to reproduce good results in the future, but maybe there's a secret sauce in the way some gms manage to find the undervalued pieces, but back to the original point, imo that secret sauce will never be "the 2nd round pick that he hit a home run on was evidence of a great trade because it panned out better than expected".

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Supsens is somewhat right. His value was that of a rental player. Not a signed player, because he was only going to sign with one team.

Why are we discussing this though? Who cares at this point in time?

That poster is supsens? Lol, ok, that explains the extreme pro-Dorion bias. Good to know.

 

[Sweatred]

Not sure I can get behind the implied logic here. A 2nd has an abstract value at the time of the trade, if it goes on to exceed that value, it doesn't mean you got better value out of the trade, because if that were the case, the 1st we could could be seen as a worse piece than the 2nd if the 2nd round pick ends up being a better player than the 1st round pick.

I think there are two distinct things to evaluate with any trade; 1. Did you maximize the return. and 2. Did it work out in the end.

I'd argue Dorion got decent value trading for Duchene but the deal clearly didn't work out as hoped. Alternatively, an argument can be made that the value he got for Karlsson was lacking (some would disagree, but that's not my point), but so far it's worked out tremendously (yet to be determined I suppose, because we've really only gotten on ice value out of Tierney and DeMelo).

In the end, how it works out is the most important when it comes to winning games, but the least predictable, and as such the hardest to causally link to good decision making or a job well done. Do you hire a GM who got good end results, or one who maximized returns and who's process displayed a sound logic. I'd like to think the latter GM is more likely to reproduce good results in the future, but maybe there's a secret sauce in the way some gms manage to find the undervalued pieces, but back to the original point, imo that secret sauce will never be "the 2nd round pick that he hit a home run on was evidence of a great trade because it panned out better than expected".

Ya - I disagree. The EK trade was a great deal at the time. Only people who thought his ankle was/would be fine and didn’t know who Norris was thought otherwise.

Anyone who looks at the EK deal as trading a superstar/Norris type dman will always hate that deal. The reality is obvious now ... he isn’t that player anymore.

A proper player eval on EK would include letting him go for nothing before signing him to $11.5 x 8 let alone the haul PD got for him.