Tribute Pierre Dorion appreciation thread

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BankStreetParade

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Jan 22, 2013
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You can have a debate about the work. There's bad, but also good. The team, with the roster they have, is not in a terrible spot.

But the person is bad. When people talk about rotten culture in hockey, Dorion deserves to be in the group with Babcock.

He goes out of the way to make others who work with him feel bad about themselves and like they don't belong. Instead of trying to lift people up, he breaks them down.
Fair enough. If I see something concrete about those claims, other than hearsay and anecdotal evidence, then I'd be willing to change my opinion. All I've heard are accusations from less than reputable sources and from people who were fired and might have an axe to grind. Not exactly the creme de la creme of reliability on these kinds of things.

I suppose now that he and Melnyk are gone, there might be more space for people with solid reputations to come forward and shed some light.
 

Larionov

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Feb 9, 2005
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I listened to the Coming in Hot podcast last night. Brent Wallace had Shawn Simpson as his guest. If you want to hear Dorion and his record get absolutely carved up for a good solid hour, give it a listen. It's pretty revealing. Bottom line is this - not one player who has ever left Ottawa ever had a good word to say about the guy. He was just such an awkward penguin when it came to relationships with people - when Craig Anderson left Ottawa, for instance, it was apparently a 30 second discussion. That guy gave ten years to the franchise, and Dorion dismissed him like a rookie on a PTO.

They also had a fascinating smoking gun on the Dadonov deal - when that trade call happened, Dorion was the only rep for Ottawa on the call. Apparently that almost never happens - most teams have at least two, sometimes more executives on the call. Dorion took it alone. Shortly thereafter, Peter McTavish left the organization.

And then comes the litany of people who have left - McTavish, both Mann brothers, McGuire - a ton of good people have moved on. We all assumed that Dorion had a skinny front office because Melnyk was cheap - as it turns out, it was also because he drove good people away and liked to work alone.

Andlauer had that guy pegged from day one - a good scout who was promoted to a role for which he was badly unsuited. I blame the culture that Melnyk created for the Dadonov fiasco, but Dorion should have walked away instead of lying on behalf of his owner. That was a choice he made, and now he is paying the price for it.
 
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jake1

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Looking at the roster, he got some (a lot?) of the big things right. But he got most of the little things wrong over the years. Beats the opposite, I guess. Lock in the wrong core and you're dead, for a long while. Get the right core and mess up the periphery, you can still be good. Of course we don't actually know if the core is good yet.
 

Agent Zub

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Jan 2, 2015
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"the team is not in a bad spot"

yea after trading an in prime ecf team, then tanking for 6 years and then trading away so many picks for help now. the entire function of the draft is to reward crappiness, no incredible skill needed in picking the top players with top 5 picks. (which the scouts were more responsible for than Dorion anyway)

imagine how much better we would be without Dorion.
 

Burrowsaurus

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Mar 20, 2013
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He had some funny moments. And I’m sure many more funny moments will be revealed in the coming months.
 

BankStreetParade

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I listened to the Coming in Hot podcast last night. Brent Wallace had Shawn Simpson as his guest. If you want to hear Dorion and his record get absolutely carved up for a good solid hour, give it a listen. It's pretty revealing. Bottom line is this - not one player who has ever left Ottawa ever had a good word to say about the guy. He was just such an awkward penguin when it came to relationships with people - when Craig Anderson left Ottawa, for instance, it was apparently a 30 second discussion. That guy gave ten years to the franchise, and Dorion dismissed him like a rookie on a PTO.
What does being socially awkward have to do with determining someone's character?

Also, Simmer's reputation is highly impeachable. I'm not saying there isn't veracity to any potential claims about Dorion's personality and treatment of others, but Simpson and Wallace are pretty much the last 2 people on Earth to trust about it.
They also had a fascinating smoking gun on the Dadonov deal - when that trade call happened, Dorion was the only rep for Ottawa on the call. Apparently that almost never happens - most teams have at least two, sometimes more executives on the call. Dorion took it alone. Shortly thereafter, Peter McTavish left the organization.
Who else was in the front office at that point? Wasn't it just Dorion and McTavish? Pretty weird, nonetheless.
And then comes the litany of people who have left - McTavish, both Mann brothers, McGuire - a ton of good people have moved on. We all assumed that Dorion had a skinny front office because Melnyk was cheap - as it turns out, it was also because he drove good people away and liked to work alone.
McGuire, who was in the front office wilderness for years and appears to have been a Eugene Melnyk special, and McTavish, a lawyer with no hockey experience whatsoever. Not exactly the best and the brightest working for this organization. The front office was skinny because Melnyk was cheap. Any other owner would have hired a senior executive with experience to be POHO and help Dorion. Instead, all he did was hire people with little to no experience or people desperate for NHL jobs.
Andlauer had that guy pegged from day one - a good scout who was promoted to a role for which he was badly unsuited. I blame the culture that Melnyk created for the Dadonov fiasco, but Dorion should have walked away instead of lying on behalf of his owner. That was a choice he made, and now he is paying the price for it.
Ultimately, he took the fall and now he's been rinsed out of the organization.
 

Micklebot

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What does being socially awkward have to do with determining someone's character?

Also, Simmer's reputation is highly impeachable. I'm not saying there isn't veracity to any potential claims about Dorion's personality and treatment of others, but Simpson and Wallace are pretty much the last 2 people on Earth to trust about it.
Simmer and Wallace aren't the only ones to report that Dorion has treated players poorly in the past, McKenna comes to mind, there's how he treated Murray when they sent him to Belleville which was reported by mainstream media,

If they were the only ones saying this kind of stuff, sure I'd be skeptical, but both very clearly do have connections, and are pretty much in line with what's broadly out there.
 

swiftwin

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It's amazing. They got Tkachuk signed with no signing bonuses. No front-loaded money. The consolations they gave him were one less UFA year, a higher AAV than what was market-value at the time, and a NMC.

The Tkachuk contract was Tkachuk relenting and wanting to play. His family was doing the full court press, even his brother was on the radio diverting the heat to him and their dad. Tkachuk ended up signing what was a super soft deal considering how important buyout protection is for star players under 26.

I assume Melnyk was mad about paying 8.2M for a 45 point player or whatever. Basically, the average Twitter take at the time.

It's crazy that Dorion pulled this all despite all the turmoil created by Melnyk by hiring McGuire. What a shit show.
 

TonySoprano11

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Apr 8, 2006
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Most of us agree he wasn't great at his job, and I think the consensus around the league is the same - from players to other GMs and media personalities.

At the end of the day, however, the guy is a human being. I am sure this was a dream of his to be in the position he was, and he failed spectacularly at it. He is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life, knowing he was a joke to many people.

I am glad he is gone. I also wish him the best in retirement or whatever else he decides to do with his post hockey life.
 
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Sens of Anarchy

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I want to make an appreciative comment in the appreciation thread. One may come to me while this is still somewhat pertinent. I am searching my memory for something . The only thing coming to me right now is an appreciation for the concept that someone so incompetent could hang on to a coveted position in the NHL for so long.
 

swiftwin

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"the team is not in a bad spot"

yea after trading an in prime ecf team, then tanking for 6 years and then trading away so many picks for help now. the entire function of the draft is to reward crappiness, no incredible skill needed in picking the top players with top 5 picks. (which the scouts were more responsible for than Dorion anyway)

imagine how much better we would be without Dorion.
"Prime ECF team".

Prime ECF teams don't finish 30th in the league.

The fact is, despite his flaws, Dorion built a very solid core of players, with very good contracts. Unlike most teams, he nailed all his top 5 picks despite the team's picks not winning the lottery once.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Nostalgic Dorion Avatar material

1698938236436.png

Slashed.
 
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Agent Zub

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"Prime ECF team".

Prime ECF teams don't finish 30th in the league.

The fact is, despite his flaws, Dorion built a very solid core of players, with very good contracts. Unlike most teams, he nailed all his top 5 picks despite the team's picks not winning the lottery once.

a team that Dorion destroyed as soon as he got it.

dude traded Zibanejad for Brassard as his first move. and then needing a number 1 c traded a lotto pick for a player who would leave soon after.

we have a solid core of players because thats what you get when you tank for 6 years and get first crack at the best young talent in the world.

which btw was Mann's and the scouting staffs job.
 

BankStreetParade

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Simmer and Wallace aren't the only ones to report that Dorion has treated players poorly in the past, McKenna comes to mind, there's how he treated Murray when they sent him to Belleville which was reported by mainstream media,

If they were the only ones saying this kind of stuff, sure I'd be skeptical, but both very clearly do have connections, and are pretty much in line with what's broadly out there.
Could you provide some examples of this stuff? I don't remember these "incidents" and I'd like to read what happened.
 

BondraTime

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Nov 20, 2005
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Could you provide some examples of this stuff? I don't remember these "incidents" and I'd like to read what happened.
McKenna has been at Dorion ever since he left Ottawa. I’d he surprised if he wasn’t “Mike Commodoring” this firing. He seems to have been one of many guys that question Dorion a character and communication skills since leaving.

Murray as well was pretty forthcoming on how he felt he was treated when he was sent down by management.

I’m sure there are receipts for those on Twitter more than I, but I do remember seeing quite a few when they are posted here.
 

Bileur

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Jun 15, 2004
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Copied and updated from another thread, but more suitable for here. Purely looking at Dorion's legacy in hindsight; in no particular order:

Names that trigger: Ziba, Condon, Duchene/Turris/Byram, Hoffman, Goalie debacles: Gustavsson/Talbot/Murray, Stepan, Stone trade, Duclair, defensive disasters: Gudbransson/Reilly/Hainsey/J. Brown/Del Zotto, Colin White, Mann Brothers, DeBrincat, Burrows, Oduya, Dadonov, Zaitsev, 1st round draft disasters: Tyler Boucher/Lassi/JBD/L. Brown, no room for Pinto under the cap

Happy dance: Zub, drafting Tkachuk, drafting Sanderson, Karlsson's returns (Norris/Pinto/1st/DeMelo/etc.), Greig, Stutzle's contract, C. Brown, Giroux, drafting Batherson and Formenton

No credit nor blame: Formenton situation, Pinto gambling situation, shoulder injuries, goalie injuries, San Jose pick wins the lottery, Stutzle drafter 3rd OA

TBD: Korpisalo/Sogaard/Merilainen, Jarventie vs Peterka, Chychrun

...and plenty more I forget...

I think letting the Karlsson’s situation fester until he had to be moved should be added to the trigger column.

Saying Boro would be a Sen for life and then not following through as well.
 
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BankStreetParade

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McKenna has been at Dorion ever since he left Ottawa. I’d he surprised if he wasn’t “Mike Commodoring” this firing. He seems to have been one of many guys that question Dorion a character and communication skills since leaving.

Murray as well was pretty forthcoming on how he felt he was treated when he was sent down by management.

I’m sure there are receipts for those on Twitter more than I, but I do remember seeing quite a few when they are posted here.
The X timeline is unimaginably bad. I can't figure out how to navigate by date and this guy has 35.6k posts apparently. I have no idea how to find any of the posts that would be used as examples because I don't know what they say or which chronological order they go in.
 
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Big Muddy

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I think it’s still a little raw and too soon.

I would love to read a book written by Pierre Dorion on his experiences as Ottawa GM.

However, as far as I know, no GMs have done this as it’s unprofessional and potentially career-ending and even if he did, could you trust what he wrote?

That being said, we’ll never really know what moves he did or didn’t do at the direction of our increasingly wacky owner, Eugene Melnyk.

His draft record gets a lot of grief around here but there are far far worse ones out there which is a bit of a cautionary tale for whoever inherits the job.

Swung for the fences a lot when it came to trades and signings, and struck out a lot as a result.

With respect to the general tenor of his leadership and treatment of staff, I admit I don’t know enough, but I do suspect that it wasn’t entirely professional.

I think he was a man in the wrong job and knew it, and consequently was very paranoid about losing it.

But he had a talent for identifying solid players at the junior level and wasn’t afraid to pull the trigger.
That is something that I have said in the past as well. It just seemed like too much of a coincidence that every time a good player was up for his pay day contract, that player was moved out. Got to think Melnyk was wanting to keep the team at a certain spending level. He made some bad moves no doubt, and there were other negatives about his tenure, but I think some of these moves Melnyk was behind.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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The X timeline is unimaginably bad. I can't figure out how to navigate by date and this guy has 35.6k posts apparently. I have no idea how to find any of the posts that would be used as examples because I don't know what they say or which chronological order they go in.
Ya, twitter is a mess these days, especially if you're a holdout and don't have an account,

McKenna talked about his experience on spitting chicklets, took a lot of heat from those questioning his story, and has since tweeting something to the effect of I told ya so,

Murray talked about the lack of communication when he was put on waivers, that stuff was in the media not on twitter specifically.

The stuff Simmer is suggesting seems a bit more mean spirited, at least wrt PM, calling him a rat within earshot, but in retrospect that situation always seemed odd,
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

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Oct 16, 2006
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I don't feel the need to be vindictive. Getting fired is not fun, I'm sure. I also don't feel the need to be overly courteous.

It's hard to separate that last 8 years or so of the Melnyk era as anything but toxic. Seemed like his promotion was sort of in line with the deterioration in general and probably had no business being promoted to such a high level position. I'm happy to leave all that behind and enjoy this hobby again. Seemed like Dorion was the last piece of all that.
 
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swiftwin

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I don't feel the need to be vindictive. Getting fired is not fun, I'm sure. I also don't feel the need to be overly courteous.

It's hard to separate that last 8 years or so of the Melnyk era as anything but toxic. Seemed like his promotion was sort of in line with the deterioration in general and probably had no business being promoted to such a high level position. I'm happy to leave all that behind and enjoy this hobby again. Seemed like Dorion was the last piece of all that.
Why did it prevent you in the first place? I'm so confused as to why people were so obsessed with Dorion that it detracted from their enjoyment of the team on the ice.
 

BankStreetParade

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Ya, twitter is a mess these days, especially if you're a holdout and don't have an account,

McKenna talked about his experience on spitting chicklets, took a lot of heat from those questioning his story, and has since tweeting something to the effect of I told ya so,

Murray talked about the lack of communication when he was put on waivers, that stuff was in the media not on twitter specifically.

The stuff Simmer is suggesting seems a bit more mean spirited, at least wrt PM, calling him a rat within earshot, but in retrospect that situation always seemed odd,
This is all I could find on the bolded...
He didn’t dress in the Senators Nov. 26 game against the Anaheim Ducks and was informed by coach D.J. Smith post game that he was being placed on waivers. When he cleared, assistant general manager Peter MacTavish broke the news.

“They said it was a management decision, that’s about all I got, so I’m down here and I’m going to try and make the most of my time here,” said Murray, who flew back to Ottawa before the end of the Senators road trip.

His thoughts on the club’s decision? “Confusion, honestly, was the main one. But at the end of the day, I thought about what I wanted to get out of it. I’m here (in Belleville) to make the most of it and keep my eye on the prize and eventually get up there as soon as possible.”
I don't know what the confusion would be. He was informed by both DJ and Dorion that he was being placed on waivers, they changed goalie coaches for him earlier in the year and he was 0-5-0 with 0.890 sv% and 3.26gaa when they made the decision.

Again, I'm happy to change my mind on whether Dorion exhibited a pattern of malicious conduct towards co-workers and subordinates but if this is supposed to be a good example of his mistreatment of players, I can't really agree with that assessment.
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

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Oct 16, 2006
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Why did it prevent you in the first place? I'm so confused as to why people were so obsessed with Dorion that it detracted from their enjoyment of the team on the ice.
That comment isn't as much in reference about Dorion specifically, but he's the final nail in the coffin imo for the Melnyk era being closed (maybe DJ, but he doesn't seem as controversial of a figure) and it was important to move on from that entirely imo. An era of internal promotions only, and hiring's needing to be cheap as the first requirement is one I'm glad is behind us. It was hard to get behind the product and believe in it the last 8-10 years under Melnyk. For Dorion specifically, I didn't believe in his ability to be a net positive as time moved on. He was a guy I actually lobbied to get the job (in part because Randy Lee was the only other rumored candidate), but he lost me and I don't think he's a very good GM all things considered. And tbh, it sounds like some of the noise around him being hard to work with has some legs. Like with Melnyk, too many controversies for me to believe he's innocent in all of them and he just cost the team a significant asset.

I'm just glad this team has finally shaken the MO of everything has to be as cheap as possible. It's a pro team now, not a handicapped small market team trying to save pennies in every corner, while being miserable about it. We're finally open to qualified, external hires. It's exciting.

This is a team that has not looked externally for a GM for over 20 years. Before Melnyk's ownership was the last time and all we've gotten was internal promotions with him learning from the previous guy only moving on for health reasons.
 
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