You paint far too rosy of a picture, and this gets off the topic of this thread. Suffice it to say that several teams are having financial difficulties in spite of the revenue transfer and cap. There are still problems and the much vaunted growth has not been equitably distributed, even lags considerably in the markets that could use it the most.
Phoenix XXXV: Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave...
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You paint far too rosy of a picture, and this gets off the topic of this thread. Suffice it to say that several teams are having financial difficulties in spite of the revenue transfer and cap. There are still problems and the much vaunted growth has not been equitably distributed, even lags considerably in the markets that could use it the most.
Doug Smail
Registered User
...and the Jets went to round 2 of the stanley cup playoffs...twice! (Thanks Calgary)
...and the Jets made the playoffs 12 out of 17 seasons. Coyotes 3 out of 15. Do we rip on current teams who havent won the cup in the past 17 years? Oh well, may as well move all franchises that havent won the cup in the past decade and a half. The Jets not going far in the playoffs had nothing to do with fan support and team quality. It had 99% to do with a team called the (82-91) Edmonton Oilers. Arguably THE best team in the history of hockey.
All I'm saying is I would put a whole lot more faith in the committed to the market thing if the NHL showed the slightest willingness to bear the cost of doing that.
And believe me, I make no bones about the fact that the only reason that Winnipeg is currently at the top of the list is through a Herculean amount of effort and patience on the part of True North in working with the NHL. Also, it doesn't hurt that, as you say, there aren't any real other options on such short notice.
Winnipeg is unbelievably lucky to be in the position it's in, mainly due to the work of Mark Chipman and True North. I don't know if anybody else would have gotten this far.
I note that there is much skepticism that Winnipeg will be able to be much more than a bottom feeder, but from what I have heard, True North has positioned themselves to pretty much be as successful as is earthly possible in Winnipeg. If given the chance, I think Winnipeg will surprise and shock most everyone on how successful it will be. I believe they will be a model franchise for smaller markets.
I agree, but at the same time no league is perfect. The NBA is a mess, and it's more highly regarded than the NHL. I'd be more scared to be an NBA owner (barring certain franchises) than an NHL one under certain circumstances and if things don't change soon
But you're right, it's slightly off topic
Doug Smail
Registered User
Why can't they have Hulsizer buy the team with a $1 down payment and then pay the league back over 10 years or something? They'll do it if they care about Phoenix that much, which evidently they do.
They care about "their" own money too. Keep in mind, some of these teams are losing money of their own, or just above breaking even.
Furthermore, it's not in any of their interests to let mgt of Phoenix build a very strong team that will compete with their own teams. They want success but only up to a point.
Killion
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I read a paper once on Hyper Dimensional Geometry by a Gary Bettman. Riemmanian Spacial Time Continuims & their relationship to the earths geo-magnetic lay lines. De-creationism. Alien codex signatures buried within mammalian DNA sequences. Frankly, it was very well written. More than plausible. Disturbing. Upon completion, I briefly considered giving away all of my goods & chattels, sell the Buick, run out & buy a goodly selection of orange colored polyester leisurewear from Walmart. Book a one way flight to Lima. Join the global pilgrimage to the Nazca Plains awaiting "their" return. Salvation from the coming Global Apocalypse. What do you suppose Jerry Colangelo would call that kind of behavior?. Im thinkin it just might be common sense, and have Gary Bettman to thank for pointing me in the right direction.....
Had me fooled. Here I thought it was the most important thing in sports history to make sure that there's a hockey team in suburban Phoenix. What a relief.
*Checks thread title*
Something about furry animals, and ......oh yes, Phoenix.
But Mr Chipmunk is waiting patiently for the call to move the furry Coyote from the desert cave to the frozen Polar bear haven of the north. Unfortunately if that call comes Mickey Moose will have to leave his home and look for a new home. Maybe he can rent the furry Coyotes cave.
No animals were harmed in the making of this post.
AllByDesign
Who's this ABD guy??
I once had a similar vision, standing on the shores of Lake Louise. All the woodland species came down to greet me..... I was Higher than a Kite at the time of course. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds.... As performed by William Shatner.
Crap... Killion and I had the exact same trip... was that young or old Shatner in yours?
Lol...circle jerking? Dude ... I think you are getting wound up for little reason. Spend about two years sorting through all the posts and you see that the posters who are on the "fringe" post for a while then move on their merry way. It's best just to stick to the substance and pretend you don't even see the rest.
.... well the new owner is trying to sell away the right to charge for parking. You are also the first person I have ever seen refer to Wayne Gretzky as a crook. Just as a note, there are many laws of economics that are static.
It will be very interesting to see what develops from this. I find it insane that this actual piece of meat has been left on the plate, virtually untouched. My guess is that the NHL looks to re-structure to something similar to Reinsdorf's purchase arrangement. Is there enough to re-negotiate the whole deal from square one? Not likely, this is why I think they take the JR deal and some white out and start filling Hulsizer in the blanks.
Roughneck
Registered User
Is the Reinsdorf deal even feasible if Hulsizer doesn't budge? I can't imagine that if that was a real possibility they would have waited this long. I'm sure the NHL would be willing to go for any deal so long as the BOG gets their $170M or more and the COG would go for any deal that involves them coughing up $197M or less so it seems the only way a new deal could happen is if Hulsizer changes his terms. He might like Arizona and hockey but it doesn't seem like he's willing to do that.
Killion
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Hard to tell with Cap'n Kirk. Between the hairplugs, tummy ticks, plastic suregery & Botox, he kinda looks like he's forever 47 no?. And you'll find his performance of the Beatles classic on youtube.....hilarious..... As for the rest of your post, yes, I agree. About the only thing they can do at this stage. Still, the $100M question remains; wheres' that coming from?. AEG?. Jacobs & Snider with a side deal of ASG's, Winter Classics & other incentives to lend MH the money to complete the transaction?. Or do you think he'll dig himself if he's got an out clause 5-7yrs down the road?...
On the surface, the issue is the cost of the $100 million to pay for the parking fees. The idea was to sell bonds to raise the money, but the legal challenge has prevented buyers from purchasing and/or requiring too high an interest rate.
I do think that there might be some issues under the surface that might be preventing the City of Glendale from proceeding more aggressively on the legal front with the GWI. One might be a concern on behalf of the NHL and its BOG, or even by the COG, about the threat of a drawn out legal battle with the GWI. If the NHL is not willing to endorse the deal without the GWI backing off their threats, then the financing might not be the only impediment. Similarly, I have a sense that the City of Glendale is very averse politically to having this go to court, before or after a deal. A second issue might be concerns about the source of the $97 million in arena management fees. I don't think that this is a trivial issue, and something that always seems to be ignored and/or evaded in public discussions about the deal.
But this is just speculation, as usual.
He commanded an exorbitant amount of money for his salary (close to 10 million a year) and used his influence to get his pals cushy jobs within the organisation. There was an article (it's too late for me to search for it at this time) that spoke about how he basically took advantage of the deep pockets and good intentions of Moyes. Obviously take that with a grain of salt, but if we assume that when he was still part of the organisation, the Coyotes were losing 20 million per year, his salary alone would account for nearly half of those losses. Not to mention the fact that the team under him was playing horrible hockey for many years, which surely contributed to lack of fan interest to a certain extent.
AllByDesign
Who's this ABD guy??
My thoughts see the NHL financing a bulk of the purchase, as seen in last years JR deal. I envision MH keeping the parking rights, but selling the rights to a private firm. I see an arena management deal that pays much less than that is on the table, but arena management losses being covered by a CFD.
I don't see a Reinsdorf style remedy for a city guaranteed selling price. It is my strong feeling that this was the hurdle that caused JR to scurry back to Chicago. I think the city and the NHL want to see that this gong show doesn't repeat itself. I am sure MH will want extra protection if a new deal is found, but I think his cover would come from the purchase agreement with the league, rather than the COG.
A lot of visions, admittedly. What else would you expect after you have a flashback of a young Shatner screaming "GOOO GOOO GAA JoOOo".
Killion
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No, its not. He'd have to come up with $100M on top of the $70M he's committed; the COG its $25M (which is still worrisome & could still prove problematical). If he was willing & able to do so with the Arena Mgmnt agreement as per, retains the parking rights himself & starts charging for it; the COG carrying through with its plans for a CFD; an out clause included then maybe a deal could get done. Bettman stated almost (but not quite) categorically that the bond issue was dead. So really, what other option ('s) does Hulsizer, the NHL & or the COG have at their disposal?. The league itself cant/wont extend terms unless they pull a 180 on previous statements. I can think of no other options at this time.
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
The first problem with the above is that it tends to see "the governors" as a monolithic block rather than a collection of different individuals/groups with different views, values, objectives, reasons for being involved in hockey and the NHL, etc. And that’s a fatal flaw in this case.
The second problem with the above is that it engages, with all respect, in the fantasy world type of thinking, “what if we could put a franchise anywhere without regard to who’s going to pay the freight” -- a rather pointless exercise. Dkehler is spot on in regards to this type of thinking as it relates to Phoenix. Sure it would be nice to hold onto the AZ market and the potential expanded TV footprint other things being equal – i.e., provided it doesn't cost the BOGs anything and someone else foots the bill.
I believe also that you are underestimating the support for TNSE’s plan to have a franchise return to Winnipeg, especially -- but not exclusively -- from the Canadian side of the BOG and that you are not accounting at all for the support from the Canadian media and corporate partners of the NHL.
There is a reason Winnipeg is (at least in my view) the #1 relocation option for the NHL at present. Part of it has to do with circumstances, but a large part of it has to do with how TNSE has conducted itself and developed good relations with members of the BOG. I also believe there is a genuine interest among some elements of the NHL to have additional teams in Canada – a shocker to some here perhaps who view southern expansion vs. additional Canadian teams as a zero sum game. Frankly, it is not a life or death decision for the NHL to have a couple of additional franchises in the Great White North.
GHOST
Killion, I think you might be right. But if an "out clause" is given should the CFD not be able to raise sufficient funds, then I think that the COG knows that this is a very risky proposition, perhaps fatally so. I still think that nobody believes, on either side of the fence, that the parking revenues will come anywhere close to what Reinsdorf was contemplating to cover purchase costs and operating expenses. Therein lies the rub. The revenues just aren't there to cover the losses, especially over the near term of 5-10 years. I just don't see how this can be done without an owner biting the bullet and showing confidence in the market by agreeing to take on losses in the short term. But so far, it doesn't look like any ownership candidates are willing to do so.
RR
Registered User
I think that is precisely it, Whileee. The NHL cannot stand around in the event of a legal challenge waiting for a decision, thereby potentially losing its most viable option for relocation.
There has to be a $$$$ threshold for any new owner in a new market, and another year of uncertainty and NHL ownership likely leads to more losses, and drives the price so high that a market like Winnipeg might say, "too much. We pass."
RR
Registered User
In fairness to Gretzky, no one put a gun to his head and said sign this deal. There's still the question as to the structure of his deal, and if Moyes is the one who attempted to make Gretzky look bad.
After the BK was filed questions were raised (that have yet to be answered) if Wayne's contract was actually the responsibility of the team, or was a personal services contract with Moyes.
That has yet to be sorted out and was, very likely, why the NHL fought to exclude Gretzky as an unsecured creditor. If it was a personal services deal with Moyes, the responsibility lies with Moyes, not the team.
It is speculated by those who believe it is Moyes' responsibility that he assigned the contract to the team shortly before the filing of the BK. I'll let the lawyers take it from here but I think this gets back to, "when did Jerry legally cease to be in charge, and did he assign the contract before or after that date?"
Gretzky sucked as a coach, and certainly handed out jobs to his friends. But I've never thought for a second his intention was to enrich himself and bring this franchise down.
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