Phoenix XIXth: Nervous Breakdown

[RR]

Residential properties within a few miles of Jobing.com Arena are selling for an average of $30k, down 80% in value from a few years ago.

85009.

Do you have a link for that? Data I've seen from Nov. 2010 to current has average home prices in Glendale at ~$110K, which is where the AHPs were back in 2001 when Ellman and the COG signed their deal to build the arena.

 

[Whileee]

Sorry, but not all Winnipeggers feel your sentiment.

I think Bettman unfairly became the whipping boy for the loss Winnipeggers suffered when the Jets left. Make no mistake, the Jets were extremely important to a large part of the city, but the attitude was as if Bettman tried to make the Jets leave..

I think at the time he became commissioner, he really wanted to expand hockey into non-traditional markets, which is fair since as the comish of the league he was looking for ways to increase revenues...but there were a lot of things Winnipeg did not have in its control at the time.

First off, I think Susan Thompson was more interested in hosting the Pan Am Games than building a new arena. Secondly, the city was given an extra year and Shenrakow refrained from selling the Jets. He really loved the team, but they were simply losing money -- the 60 cent dollar really crippled the revenues (think about it...if some teams are struggling right now, imagine how they would fare if they were 60 cents to the Cdn dollar, and paying all salaries against the Cdn dollar...) PLUS the arena was atrocious. Sentimental value aside, the Winnipeg Arena was built in the 50's and simply could not support the revenues needed to support an NHL franchise.

If you ask me, the situation Winnipeg is in today, is by far more favourable than what could have happened should the Jets have stayed (the city's new arena option).

Today you have a world class, as Killion stated, ownership group with a very professional attitude and passion for hockey. Not too many ownership groups in the NHL can claim the same thing, an even newer arena than what would have been finished by 97-98, and in a more prime position (on Portage rather than where they were gonna be; where Canwest/Shaw Park is right now)

Plus, the often overlooked fact, that no one wanted to own the Jets, except those with interests to move them.



Phoenix's situation today is very different, although there are similarities here and there. I am personally doubtful it will go through, simply because if at this junction the city has to go after Private bonds as speculated, its not looking good. Not much more time can be wasted.

Garry Bettman recently stated in the Globe & Mail how "if this [current deal in Glendale] doesn't work out, then they will have explored all possible options" - its in the Saturday print edition. Now think about that for a moment. Garry Bettman is admitting the NHL will have explored everything. They are extremely unlikely to drag it out for an extended length of time like you feel they might.

I completely agree. This is just business. Leaving Winnipeg was because the local market conditions were not conducive to sustaining an NHL team, and the local government decided that it was too expensive to build an arena and subsidize the losses of a team in a league with no salary cap, no revenue sharing, rising salary costs and a very weak Canadian dollar.

Leaving Phoenix or Atlanta or any other market will be because there is no suitable owner willing to purchase and operate a franchise in that market with the available revenue streams. That is not much different than the reality of Winnipeg's situation 15 years ago. The future potential of these markets is trumped by the temporary exigencies of funding the teams in those locales by an ownership group. No local owner means no team.

If a relocation looks necessary Winnipeg will be considered because: 1) it has a suitable arena; 2) it has a suitable business model to succeed in the NHL's financial system; 3) it has a strong ownership group willing to pay the going rate and operate the team in Winnipeg. Right now, Winnipeg might be the only locale outside of the current NHL markets that has those prerequisites.

Sentimentality did not keep the Jets in Winnipeg, and will not keep teams in current markets. Sentimentality will not send a franchise to Winnipeg. It is business, in the here and now, pure and simple.

Why does the NHL seem to favour the Phoenix market over Atlanta these days? I speculate that it is because they sense that the City of Glendale is inclined to sweeten the pot enough to make ownership in that market attractive enough to get their $170 million out of the sale of the team. I expect that they have much less optimism that a local sale will be possible in Atlanta because the city will almost certainly not provide the subsidies being offered in Glendale. Moreover, in Atlanta the arena is already operated by the current owners so a new Thrashers' owner would be unlikely to get a sweetheart lease arrangement in Atlanta.

 

[PitbulI]

I agree with many points there. In the middle to late 90's and well into the new the new millennium, Winnipeg was hurting. While the Pan Am games were fun, it was a quick event.

Winnipeg did not have a new arena. That was probably the biggest hurdle. Well, Winnipeg Enterprises was crippling anything they could get their hands on too. I seriously doubt that even if a local ownership group was found, the Jets would have survived to get to the lockout that took out a season.

But, up until Thomson showed up on the scene, we had no real ownership group that came public and said they could purchase a team. Chipman didn't have the money and we all know David Asper is a fake.

I feel that there is almost no way this bond deal will go through and if I am looking at that as the only thing keeping the Coyotes in Glendale, well, I'll be watching NHL hockey in the MTS Centre this fall.

 

[yotesreign]

To this day, I still wonder why the City of Pheonix doesn't help out with this. Do they feel that it's out of sight, out of mind or do they look at this arrangement and know that it's just idiotic?

The city of Phoenix has it's own problems. According to Councilman Sal DiCiccio, including benefits (health care, sick days,vacation days, etc,) the average total of pay and benefits is about $100,000 per year for about 15,000 city of Phoenix employees.

That's the AVERAGE pay & benefits, not the top. I can tell you the average pay & benefits in the private sector in Phoenix is *cough* slightly under that (according to Sal, $57,000 per year here).

And Phoenix Water rates? Don't get Councilman Sal started. They've gone up 40% in 5 years he says, and the city wants to kick them up another 7% this year.

And they're not even paying for a hockey stadium.

 

[PitbulI]

It looks like the COG has problems too. Has the City of Pheonix been approached during any of this?

 

[Coach]

So in one sentence can someone tell me why this deal has not gone through yet? Why hasn't the COG or Hulsizer come out with a message or interview saying that this deal with finally close on such and such date?

MH was interviewed between periods of a Coyote game and stated this deal would be done in 2 weeks, 3 weeks max. Three weeks will be on Saturday. Everyone else has been saying 2 weeks since about November.

 

[RR]

Question: Would it not be in the best interest of this franchise to have this ownership issue settled BEFORE this year's trade deadline?

- I'm certain the short form answer is 'Yes. The sooner the better'. But this team has two big name UFA's to deal with, Ilya Bryzgalov and Jovanovski.

I'm certain neither player can be re-signed without an owner. In Bryzgalov's case, we are likely looking at a multi-year mega-million dollar contract. And in Jovanovski's case, he certainly has some value if traded prior to the trade deadline (Feb 28).

Is it likely that some point BEFORE the trade deadline has to be a hard-deadline for the ownership issue to be resolved? Otherwise, its likely this franchise loses major opportunities at the trade deadline.

Anyone care to take that issue on?

Gladly. It's very reasonable to say getting ownership resolved is important, but I don't see the trade deadline as having to be a hard deadline to complete the sale.

It's doubtful settling ownership is vital to the pending UFA status of Bryz or Jovo. Neither will be dealt at the deadline with the Coyotes in position to make the playoffs. And Jovo has an NMC.

Bryz will be getting a contract in the range from Ryan Miller to Lundqvist. Jovo, if he wants to stay, will have to take a significant discount ($4M tops would be my guess). Both want to remain in Phoenix.

I don't see deals being signed until ownership is settled. Deals could have already been negotiated and are ready to be signed, but I know personally that neither Bryz nor Jovo will sign if this team is going to Winnipeg (sorry Peggers, thems the facts).

As for the trade deadline the Coyotes would love to add a true #1 center and veteran defenseman. If ownership is in place, a sizeable salary or two could be taken on, IF the new owner is willing to make that commitment.

If ownership is not settled look for Maloney to search for assets as he has the past couple of years: looks for players who fill needs who are on expiring contracts this year or next.

 

[Killion]

Killian, I hope I'm very wrong. I'm just trying to ask questions. I'm a die hard Jets fan and I want the Coyotes/Thrashers in Winnipeg. I, as many other Winnipeg'ers feel, If Bettman can screw us over, he will. (In our minds)

Yes, its unfortunate the man wasnt a little less Lawyerly & prickly. I too feel Winnipeg's both attractive & viable & would love to see a team return, and Im 110% certain its' going to happen. I do however feel that demonizing Gary Bettman is both misguided & misdirected.

I think Bettman unfairly became the whipping boy for the loss Winnipeg'ers suffered when the Jets left. Make no mistake, the Jets were extremely important to a large part of the city, but the attitude was as if Bettman tried to make the Jets leave..

Exactly. The CAD, the building issues & Shenkarows' intransigence combined with a then rookie Commish left a lot of doors open.

Do you have a link for that? Data I've seen from Nov. 2010 to current has average home prices in Glendale at ~$110K, which is where the AHPs were back in 2001 when Ellman and the COG signed their deal to build the arena.

A quick search of real estate listings in Glendale confirms it. I havent searched overall averages however their are some eye-popping listings & bargains in the Valley of Sun. Very good time to buy.

It looks like the COG has problems too. Has the City of Pheonix been approached during any of this?

Interesting & reasonable supposition, as they too, along with Scottsdale & other burgs' should have a stake & more than passing interest as to the outcome of this situation, the team part of the entire regions fabric. Unfortunately, they have their own problems to deal with & are in no position to contribute to the proposition of keeping the team in Arizona even if they were so inclined to do so. No, this is Glendales problem exclusively, regardless of the benefits the team brings to the community as a whole. In a perfect world, I agree, they should be bellying up to the bar.

 

[yotesreign]

"Within 8 to 12 miles" of Vancouver, $30k might buy you a parking spot.

There is no positive way to spin that - by N.A. standards a neighborhood that poor is a slum. I knew Cleveland had areas like that. And Detroit. But those are old rust belt cities.

Didn't know Phoenix did - that's news.

News to you maybe. Isn't news to people who live here and get out of the house. Guess some aint as edumacated as they thought they was on life in the Valley.

There's also homes selling for over a million dollars closer to the arena than 85009 is (in the last 4 months), but surely ya knew that, that's not 'news' right?

But yeah, in addition to million plus dollar homes, the valley has mobile home parks too, and white trash, all sorts of trash, and homeless people, and illegal aliens and drug addicts and gangbangers and prostitutes and bookies and organized crime. Oh yeah, and NHL hockey. And MLB, and NFL and NBA. And two NASCAR races each year. And great weather.

What else about the Valley might be news to you... it gets hot in the summer, but it's a dry heat. Mexican food is real popular here... and hockey isn't.

Surely that last part isn't "news" though, huh?

 

[Coach]

Killian, I hope I'm very wrong. I'm just trying to ask questions. I'm a die hard Jets fan and I want the Coyotes/Thrashers in Winnipeg.

It's just after living in Winnipeg all my life, going through all the news since the 90's till now with the Penguins, Predators, Coyotes, Coyotes again, Thrashers, back to the Coyotes, I have to look at the worst case scenario for NHL in Winnipeg. I, as many other Winnipeggers feel, If Bettman can screw us over, he will. (In our minds)

Remember it's business not personal. The NHL will come if they have no other option and no sooner.

 

[kdb209]

In general the Council meets every week, alternating between public and private sessions.

The private meetings are informational only and no action (votes) can be taken.

The public meetings are the ones open to the public, can be watched online, and action can be taken with discussion and votes in public.

Council can call a special meeting (public or private) at any time with 24-hour notice by posting an agenda on its website.

Minor Nit. Both the (generally) bi-weekly Council Meetings and Workshops are public - although both typically include Executive Sessions which are held behind closed doors.

 

[RR]

To this day, I still wonder why the City of Pheonix doesn't help out with this. Do they feel that it's out of sight, out of mind or do they look at this arrangement and know that it's just idiotic?

What would you propose the COP do? It would have a hard time justifying taxpayer help because of the gift clause. In fact, GWI likely argues any attempt to help Glendale has a huge negative impact on COP taxpayers.

I'm sure GWI would analyze any help COP would propose and compare that benefit to the taxpayers to those if the Arena closed, as COG says it might have to do if the Coyotes leave.

And what it might find is that COP taxpayers would have more to gain from the Arena closing, as it eliminates a major competitor to the US Airways Center and Desert Sky Pavillion within the COP for concerts, shows, and sporting events that attract crowds of up to 20,000.

Remember that GWI doesn't look backwards at impacts to government entities and the financial hits taxpayers could suffer. It only looks at current proposals. And I'm not sure there is a way COP could craft anything that gets by the gift clause.

 

[aj8000]

First off, I think Susan Thompson was more interested in hosting the Pan Am Games than building a new arena. Secondly, the city was given an extra year and Shenrakow refrained from selling the Jets...AIUI the city covered losses for a year to find other options...hence they didn't move for the 95-96 season.

The funny thing is (and I think it is still true but I haven't looked lately) You would go by the empty lot where the arena was and see the nice brickwork on the sidewalk advertising the Pan AM games and I would think that it was a waste of money, the Pan Am games and the brickwork outside a baron lot.

 

[aj8000]

And great weather.

Yeah, I read about your great weather this week.

 

[PitbulI]

Good point. Why would the city of pheonix care in terms of arena competition.

Is tonights COG council meeting public or private?

 

[kdb209]

Good point. Why would the city of pheonix care in terms of arena competition.

Is tonights COG council meeting public or private?

Tonight is a Council Workshop, not a City Council Meeting.

It's public - if you care about a "Federal Stimulus Funding Update".

Otherwise, any business w.r.t. the 'Yotes will be in Executive Session - closed to the public.

http://www.lib.ci.glendale.az.us/Clerk/agendasandminutes/Workshops/Agendas/020111.pdf

 

[Killion]

But yeah, in addition to million plus dollar homes, the valley has mobile home parks too, and white trash, all sorts of trash, and homeless people, and illegal aliens and drug addicts and gangbangers and prostitutes and bookies and organized crime.

In other words, its the same as Vancouver. Only ya'll have NFL, MLB, the NBA, NCAA & Nascar? Housing costs that though depressed are reasonable & affordable as opposed to here where the 2nd highest on the planet & artificially inflated?.And some of the best Mexican Food this side of the State of Puebla?. All we've got are a few Taco Bell's, and Lord knows what "70% filler" does to the system; something to think about as your trudging through the rain in pitch black darkness at noon trying to make sense of your soggy enchilada while keeping one eye out in order to avoid overly aggressive panhandlers and ManwhostandsonCornerScreaming.

 

[Faltorvo]

What would you propose the COP do? It would have a hard time justifying taxpayer help because of the gift clause. In fact, GWI likely argues any attempt to help Glendale has a huge negative impact on COP taxpayers.

I'm sure GWI would analyze any help COP would propose and compare that benefit to the taxpayers to those if the Arena closed, as COG says it might have to do if the Coyotes leave.

And what it might find is that COP taxpayers would have more to gain from the Arena closing, as it eliminates a major competitor to the US Airways Center and Desert Sky Pavillion within the COP for concerts, shows, and sporting events that attract crowds of up to 20,000.

Remember that GWI doesn't look backwards at impacts to government entities and the financial hits taxpayers could suffer. It only looks at current proposals. And I'm not sure there is a way COP could craft anything that gets by the gift clause.

WAIT, WHAT????????? it eliminates them??? huh?

How about the exact opposite , it makes them more dangerous then ever.

Far more open dates and a much more desperate need to win that battle.

Was it not listed in one of the parking reports that they envision added dates anyhow? To make the numbers smoother.

Was it not postulated that they could make things float with these added events and charging for parking without all these yotes issues added?

Heck could they not be able to cover the existing costs of what is there and owed with the non yotes events and there projected increase?

 

[Gump Hasek]

I find it amusing that many of you here were so quick to dismiss Lawless' article of roughly one week ago when he inferred, sans a quoted source mind you, that the speed of any potential Phoenix sale might cause some rancor within the BOG group.

Yes, the sale in Phoenix is likely to close within two weeks supposedly, at least according to the NHL, yet at the same time, Dallas is being run - not by an owner mind you but by the creditors while they look for a someone to pay the creditor's price to keep the team local, Carolina are "looking for investors", Atlanta ownership was rumored as close to turning in the keys to the league after the franchise has been up for grabs for six years (as per FAN 590 radio chatter), St. Louis are "looking for investors", Nashville looking for local investors, LA is rumoured as for sale as AEG would have to divest other ownership in order to qualify as an NFL potential owner - though this has been shot down by AEG.

ETC.

What was the net result of the recent BOG meeting? The Devils have been announced as for sale. Surely the BOG were all holding hands and singing campfire songs this past weekend. [/sarcasm]

I'm thinking that Lawless was closer to the truth than many here were willing to admit.

 

[Confucius]

To this day, I still wonder why the City of Pheonix doesn't help out with this. Do they feel that it's out of sight, out of mind or do they look at this arrangement and know that it's just idiotic?

Not a chance. I look at it this way, lets say Winnipeg had a team and they're playing out of the MTS in Winnipeg. After 5 or 6 years a city which borders on to Winnipeg makes a pitch to the Winnipeg team and says we'll build you a bigger and better arena come play here we're only a couple of miles away from the Winnipeg city limits. Five or 6 years later the city has problems and may lose the team. The city comes to Winnipeg cap in hand and says help us keep our team. Good Luck!!

 

[Gump Hasek]

Further to my last post; what was another of the net results post the BOG meeting at the ASG? The tone of Bettman's language toward Winnipeg as a potential NHL franchise changed radically.

Gee, I wonder why?

 

[Whileee]

WAIT, WHAT????????? it eliminates them??? huh?

How about the exact opposite , it makes them more dangerous then ever.

Far more open dates and a much more desperate need to win that battle.

Was it not listed in one of the parking reports that they envision added dates anyhow? To make the numbers smoother.

Was it not postulated that they could make things float with these added events and charging for parking without all these yotes issues added?

Heck could they not be able to cover the existing costs of what is there and owed with the non yotes events and there projected increase?

Yup, it's a bit of a conundrum, that Hocking analysis. On one hand the COG is saying that without the Coyotes they will have to mothball the arena. On the other hand, they are justifying a $100 million up front payment to Hulsizer largely based on an estimated on >610,000 non-hockey patrons annually, and an average of almost $5.4 million in parking per year just for non-hockey events (representing almost 55% of all parking revenue over the next 30 years). So, to justify the $100 million they are counting on booming attendance and revenue from non-hockey events, which belies their assertion that without the Coyotes the Jobing.com will go dark. They can't have it both ways, or can they?

 

[smokes]

Deals could have already been negotiated and are ready to be signed, but I know personally that neither Bryz nor Jovo will sign if this team is going to Winnipeg (sorry Peggers, thems the facts).

That's too bad. I was going to take them to Kelekis for a hot dog. I was even going to pay the extra ten cents to have the wiener split.

I suppose if the Yotes move back, we'll somehow have to manage without these two...

 

[RR]

WAIT, WHAT????????? it eliminates them??? huh?

How about the exact opposite , it makes them more dangerous then ever.

Far more open dates and a much more desperate need to win that battle.

Was it not listed in one of the parking reports that they envision added dates anyhow? To make the numbers smoother.

Was it not postulated that they could make things float with these added events and charging for parking without all these yotes issues added?

Heck could they not be able to cover the existing costs of what is there and owed with the non yotes events and there projected increase?

Perhaps you missed, "if the Arena closed, as COG says it might have to do if the Coyotes leave... So, yes, under those circumstances a competitor is eliminated.

I know some people want to attack everything that is said and then circle back around and throw out all the various "what ifs" that have bantered about here for 2 years, but it really does get to be a waste of time, IMO.

 

[RR]

I find it amusing that many of you here were so quick to dismiss Lawless' article of roughly one week ago when he inferred, sans a quoted source mind you, that the speed of any potential Phoenix sale might cause some rancor within the BOG group.

Yes, the sale in Phoenix is likely to close within two weeks supposedly, at least according to the NHL, yet at the same time, Dallas is being run - not by an owner mind you but by the creditors while they look for a someone to pay the creditor's price to keep the team local, Carolina are "looking for investors", Atlanta ownership was rumored as close to turning in the keys to the league after the franchise has been up for grabs for six years (as per FAN 590 radio chatter), St. Louis are "looking for investors", Nashville looking for local investors, LA is rumoured as for sale as AEG would have to divest other ownership in order to qualify as an NFL potential owner - though this has been shot down by AEG.

ETC.

What was the net result of the recent BOG meeting? The Devils have been announced as for sale. Surely the BOG were all holding hands and singing campfire songs this past weekend. [/sarcasm]

I'm thinking that Lawless was closer to the truth than many here were willing to admit.

For those who had issue with Lawless it was over the headline that BOG was going to "demand" answers from Bettman regarding Phoenix. Nowhere in the article was that supported.

I think we kicked that one to death, along with Sunnucks headline that didn't support his story.