Phoenix LVII (or MDCCLXXVI): Declarations of (In)Dependence

[pondnorth]

I would assume the Suns have below average NBA prices, the Cardinals have below average NFL prices and the DBacks have below average MLB prices.

I could most definitely be wrong about that but I have no way of checking.

The NBA,NFL and MLB seem to have much more stable ownership and are much more established in that market than the NHL so i`m trying not to compare.I think that entertainment options in Atlanta and Phoenix being different to say,Nashville and Winnipeg, actually harm teams in larger markets.

 

[barneyg]

Blue Jays most expensive tickets in MLB? That seems a bit...dubious...?

I checked again and it's unclear but it seems like those prices are for all games (home and away), i.e. Blue Jays tickets would include all those road games at Yankee and Fenway.. in other words, move along, nothing to see here..

 

[Dado]

I checked again and it's unclear but it seems like those prices are for all games (home and away), i.e. Blue Jays tickets would include all those road games at Yankee and Fenway.. in other words, move along, nothing to see here..

Yeah, that could explain it, as the top 3 are all clustered at the same price, and from that division.

 

[rt]

The NBA,NFL and MLB seem to have much more stable ownership and are much more established in that market than the NHL so i`m trying not to compare.I think that entertainment options in Atlanta and Phoenix being different to say,Nashville and Winnipeg, actually harm teams in larger markets.

Oh man. Robert Sarver and the Bidwills are DESPISED by all Arizonans. Jerry Colangelo is pretty much universally pined for.

Anyway, point being that the Phoenix area is not one that can draw fans for top dollar. The poster above me stated that the DBacks are barely above average and the Cardinals and Suns are near the bottom in terms of ticket prices. That's the way it is here. If the Coyotes can find themselves somewhere near the average in terms of both attendance and ticket prices amongst NHL teams in the United States, I'd say they have made some nice progress. Do they need to be much better than the average American team in this regard?

 

[pondnorth]

Oh man. Robert Sarver and the Bidwills are DESPISED by all Arizonans. Jerry Colangelo is pretty much universally pined for.

Anyway, point being that the Phoenix area is not one that can draw fans for top dollar. The poster above me stated that the DBacks are barely above average and the Cardinals and Suns are near the bottom in terms of ticket prices. That's the way it is here. If the Coyotes can find themselves somewhere near the average in terms of both attendance and ticket prices amongst NHL teams in the United States, I'd say they have made some nice progress. Do they need to be much better than the average American team in this regard?

Agreed.

 

[rt]

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/stars/post/_/id/13315/stars-have-cheapest-ticket-in-nhl

Dont know if this is a good source but it has the average NHL ticket price as $57.10. If you cut out the seven Canadian teams, it looks like the average price in the US is $47.54.

The Coyotes are at $36.15, so they obviously have a long way to go in terms of price.

 

[barneyg]

Anyway, point being that the Phoenix area is not one that can draw fans for top dollar. The poster above me stated that the DBacks are barely above average and the Cardinals and Suns are near the bottom in terms of ticket prices. That's the way it is here. If the Coyotes can find themselves somewhere near the average in terms of both attendance and ticket prices amongst NHL teams in the United States, I'd say they have made some nice progress. Do they need to be much better than the average American team in this regard?

I would actually go further and claim that the "average" is completely meaningless. In many industries, an average firm will be very profitable while in other industries an average firm will be bleeding money. Who knows which type of industry pro hockey is will all the private information, creative accounting and non-arm's-length transactions, but IMO a healthy NHL would imply that even before revenue sharing is considered, teams below the average can still turn a profit.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/stars/post/_/id/13315/stars-have-cheapest-ticket-in-nhl

Dont know if this is a good source but it has the average NHL ticket price as $57.10. If you cut out the seven Canadian teams, it looks like the average price in the US is $47.54.

The Coyotes are at $36.15, so they obviously have a long way to go in terms of price.

There is a difference between average ticket price printed on the tickets and average price of tickets sold, at least when a team does not sell all of its tickets. I'm guessing the average for tickets sold is much lower.

Also of note: there are no Winnipeg Jets tickets available at your average ticket price. The cheapest ticket is $39 and that price is only available in limited quantities and if you purchase 3 yrs worth of season tickets.

 

[kdb209]

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/stars/post/_/id/13315/stars-have-cheapest-ticket-in-nhl

Dont know if this is a good source but it has the average NHL ticket price as $57.10. If you cut out the seven Canadian teams, it looks like the average price in the US is $47.54.

The Coyotes are at $36.15, so they obviously have a long way to go in terms of price.

Average NHL Ticket Prices (general seating categories) according to Team Marketing Report.

Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.
Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.

Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.
Warning. TMR Alert. Warning.

You know the drill ...

[Standard TMR Disclaimer]
Those numbers are from Team Marketing Report - which has been debunked numerous times here as being wildly inaccurate for many teams due to methodological flaws.

Wait, you're basing this on the "leaked" Globe & Mail report, right?

Yes - and simple analysis done of actual Colorado (ColoradoHockeyFan) and San Jose (myself) ticket prices.

This post by CHF shows the flaw in TMRs methodology after they changed it in 2001 to arbitrarily exclude "premium" seats.

No. That is a BAD place to find pricing info.

The bogus numbers on the Team Marketing Report site have been debunked numerous times on the BoH board.

Probably the best (and possibly the only) numbers you are going to find for avg ticket prices were the numbers leaked last year in the Globe & Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/v5/content/pdf/NHLweb.pdf

Thank you. (And thanks to Fugu too.)

Continue to spread the message about the worthlessness of Team Marketing Report, and we will eventually triumph over misinformation! Can I get a hallelujah!

And to further the cause, here is the sorted version of the accurate numbers from that Globe and Mail link:

Average ticket prices by team
Team                   2006-07  2005-06
Toronto Maple Leafs    80.33    78.98
Colorado Avalanche     71.04    65.55
New York Rangers       63.53    54.19
Dallas Stars           61.43    58.37
Edmonton Oilers        61.14    50.20
Montreal Canadiens     60.82    58.74
Boston Bruins          59.71    56.61
Vancouver Canucks      58.74    56.24
Detroit Red Wings      56.95    56.72
Columbus Blue Jackets  56.07    53.77
Philadelphia Flyers    54.59    51.94
Minnesota Wild         54.54    51.18
Anaheim Ducks          52.25    49.79
San Jose Sharks        50.95    49.05
Calgary Flames         50.70    46.97
Ottawa Senators        50.38    45.30
New Jersey Devils      49.91    48.97
Los Angeles Kings      46.75    44.17
New York Islanders     45.04    46.30
Carolina Hurricanes    44.91    38.81
Tampa Bay Lightning    44.50    42.38
Phoenix Coyotes        43.60    45.66
Chicago Blackhawks     40.79    39.74
Nashville Predators    40.33    34.74
Florida Panthers       39.75    44.59
Washington Capitals    39.57    36.16
St. Louis Blues        39.50    35.23
Pittsburgh Penguins    38.62    38.05
Atlanta Thrashers      37.27    32.70
Buffalo Sabres         36.67    36.37
League average         52.13    49.31

Edit: An additional note on one of the reasons that Team Marketing Report's numbers are bogus. Sometime around the 2000-2001 season, they inexplicably decided to stop including anything termed "premium seating" in their average ticket prices. This immediately invalidates their numbers because of the way in which they collect their data--from marketing reps of the respective teams. Each team is allowed to label as "premium seating" any portion of their arena. So a team like Colorado, for example, can simply say that the entire lower bowl is "premium," and exclude it from the average, which is how you wind up with their laughable (made-up) "average" ticket price of under $40!

Edit: For a clear illustration of the effect of the above artificial calculation of average ticket price, observe the historical prices reported by TMR documented here:

http://andrewsstarspage.com/NHL-Business/ticket-prices.htm

Note the average ticket prices reported for Colorado during the 2000-01 season and the 2001-02 season. According to TMR, the average ticket price dropped that year from $63.11 in 2000-01 to $37.36 in 2001-02. In other words, TMR would have you believe that the Avs, coming off of a Stanley Cup winning season, with one of the best single seasons ever put together by an NHL team, not only decided to drop their ticket prices (laughable enough), but decided to drop them by an unheard of 41%! (clearly more laughable). As a season ticket-holder for the past 12 years, I can assure you that no such thing happened (not that I needed to tell you this). There was no drop, obviously. There was an increase (also obviously). The artificial numbers reported by TMR that year (and every year thereafter) are simply the result of the seat classification flaw mentioned above in this post.

[/Standard TMR Disclaimer]

 

[Fourier]

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/stars/post/_/id/13315/stars-have-cheapest-ticket-in-nhl

Dont know if this is a good source but it has the average NHL ticket price as $57.10. If you cut out the seven Canadian teams, it looks like the average price in the US is $47.54.

The Coyotes are at $36.15, so they obviously have a long way to go in terms of price.

For the sake of the children and of course kdb, please delete this post asap.

The Team Marketing Report always draws fire on here, and I would say for very good reason, as you can see from kdb's response above.

 

[Killion]

The Team Marketing Report always draws fire on here...

... too late now. Is there some part of its inverse tangent approaching an asymptope that you dont understand Fourier?.

 

[rt]

Whether or not the data is accurate isn't really the point.

 

[barneyg]

Whether or not the data is accurate isn't really the point.

Given there is no consistency across teams regarding what constitutes "premium seating", you can't really conclude anything regarding where the Coyotes sit compared to the league average. Your point (Coyotes tickets are cheaper than league average) is very likely true but you can't really use TMR as evidence of that.

 

[Fidel Astro]

Being Canadian i can tell you the attendance arguments would come to an end if fans in Glendale would just buy tickets at league average and fill the place.That would make the franchise successful in Glendale and end the possibility of relocation.

This is dead-on. We'd all shut up if the Coyotes fans could do that.

Personally, I don't understand how they can't, even with, as previously mentioned, a lack of marketing, etc. It's a miniscule percentage of the overall population, and the tickets are almost free.

 

[Killion]

...and the tickets are almost free.

... almost free huh?. Taking the average price of $37.50 per ticket (your buying two, some people buy 4 but we'll go with 2 so thats $75) multiplied by 43 games (includes pre-season) totals $3,225.00 excluding taxes & service charges, food & fuel, first right of refusal on playoff tickets, which could be 1-4 rounds of 7 game series for all you know. You could easily drop $6000 - $8000 a season depending on tastes, budget. You buy Toyota Club seats, app. $260ea. your looking at app. $22,000.00. Lets say you go for the lowest price. $18. $1600 for the season not including the aforementioned which would mean your really looking at anywhere from $2500 up. Lets say you buy a couple of jerseys & caps, pennants. $600. You hit the concessions in-game, a restaurant pre-game, maybe a bar postgame. Adds up pretty quick. Far from "free".

 

[Fourier]

... too late now. Is there some part of its inverse tangent approaching an asymptope that you dont understand Fourier?.

LOL...By the way, which one...Pi/2 or -Pi/2. Be more specific man! This is the Business Board not the trade board.

 

[Dado]

I think it would really behoove some of us Canadians to find a little humility and get off our attendance high horses. It's been a GREAT ten years for our teams (financially, anyway) but we are exactly one commodity recession away from half our teams being in the Coyote's position.

This goes double for those in cities that already failed to keep their own teams.

IMO, etc.

 

[Ugmo]

I think it would really behoove some of us Canadians to find a little humility and get off our attendance high horses. It's been a GREAT ten years for our teams (financially, anyway) but we are exactly one commodity recession away from half our teams being in the Coyote's position.

In the Coyotes' position? Lowest attendance in the league at bargain basement ticket prices? Seems a little far-fetched to me, since - unlike in Phoenix - hockey will still be king in Canada no matter how good or bad the economy is.

 

[Killion]

LOL...By the way, which one...Pi/2 or -Pi/2. Be more specific man! This is the Business Board not the trade board.

Pi/2. Sorry... and here. Finally
completed your last assignment.

 

[rt]

This is dead-on. We'd all shut up if the Coyotes fans could do that.

Personally, I don't understand how they can't, even with, as previously mentioned, a lack of marketing, etc. It's a miniscule percentage of the overall population, and the tickets are almost free.

If I go to the hockey game with my wife I'm likely blowing a hundred bucks because I'm paying the whole way. If I go with buddies, I'm likely blowing a hundred bucks because of all the extra beers. I don't know what kind of scratch you make, but im regular poor.

 

[pondnorth]

... almost free huh?. Taking the average price of $37.50 per ticket (your buying two, some people buy 4 but we'll go with 2 so thats $75) multiplied by 43 games (includes pre-season) totals $3,225.00 excluding taxes & service charges, food & fuel, first right of refusal on playoff tickets, which could be 1-4 rounds of 7 game series for all you know. You could easily drop $6000 - $8000 a season depending on tastes, budget. You buy Toyota Club seats, app. $260ea. your looking at app. $22,000.00. Lets say you go for the lowest price. $18. $1600 for the season not including the aforementioned which would mean your really looking at anywhere from $2500 up. Lets say you buy a couple of jerseys & caps, pennants. $600. You hit the concessions in-game, a restaurant pre-game, maybe a bar postgame. Adds up pretty quick. Far from "free".

Doesn`t this apply to every sth in any city in the league except for higher ticket prices to begin with?Whats the diff?

 

[Howler Scores]

Since we are talking about ticket prices I used my half season ticket price and compared that cost to other Pacific teams in this thread:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=52514505&postcount=99

I must warn you that I am sure there were some flaws in what I was able to compare my seats to because I can only go off what I see from their websites.

 

[calmdown]

Excuse me to interfer with mathematics ;-) Just to bring something different... Point of view of Coyote player...

http://tvasports.ca/tvasports/hockey/archives/2012/07/20120713-094758.html

According to reports, a team could learn as late as August 1, it resides in another city. Should this be the case with the Coyotes, they would occupy the box in the calendar of the Winnipeg Jets in the Southeast Division, in 2012-2013, and Winnipeg would move for the Pacific Division with the duties of Phoenix, the time a campaign.

"A move this late would be a big challenge for players, but it happens in our careers that we need to react quickly. When you were traded during the season, you gotta move fast. "

Easier for the players who are singles than couples with children. The family does not follow immediately if there are only a few weeks into the season.

A little bit ironic with a t-shirt with the Nordiques logo ;-)

 

[Confucius]

I think it would really behoove some of us Canadians to find a little humility and get off our attendance high horses. It's been a GREAT ten years for our teams (financially, anyway) but we are exactly one commodity recession away from half our teams being in the Coyote's position.

This goes double for those in cities that already failed to keep their own teams.

IMO, etc.

So when you decide to quit antagonizing, you find you can't deny the facts, then you appeal for humility

 

[Puckschmuck*]

I think it would really behoove some of us Canadians to find a little humility and get off our attendance high horses. It's been a GREAT ten years for our teams (financially, anyway) but we are exactly one commodity recession away from half our teams being in the Coyote's position.

This goes double for those in cities that already failed to keep their own teams.

IMO, etc.

So when you decide to quit antagonizing, you find you can't deny the facts, then you appeal for humility

My thoughts exaclty