Phoenix CXXXVI - Coyotes up for sale again

[Anisimovs AK]

There was this little thing called a bankruptcy going on and constant “reports” each year around playoff time of the franchise moving.

NHL had ownership of the franchise and did next to nothing in the way of assuring the market they would stay.

Thats not salient to my point

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Timing has never been the Coyotes' strong suit. In fact, the abject horribleness of the Coyotes' franchise timing is so ridiculous that a fiction writer would be hard-pressed to defend it if he put it in his narrative.

Let's make a list:

• Moved to Arizona right after Colangelo decided that the NHL was never going to come to the state and built his arena for the NBA.
• Moved to Glendale just in time for a recession to murder the Westgate project that their new arena would anchor.
• Hired Wayne Gretzky right after his fame made southern hockey feasible but before he learned that Friends of Gretzky is a franchise killer - and before we learned what a bad coach he is.
• Got named for the All-Star Game and then a lockout killed the season.
• Got the elusive good roster, good coach, and good goalie right after a bankruptcy and near-relocation drained all but the die-hards from the fanbase.
• Won the Pacific Division and made it to the Western Conference Final, right before another near-relocation and a lockout-shortened season (which killed all of the playoff momentum dead as a doornail).
• Lost the Connor McDavid lottery after tanking like hell to win it.
• Lost the Auston Matthews lottery after being so terrible that they didn't need to tank.
• Franchise gets a sweetheart lease deal with a ludicrously high subsidy, but it's put into the hands of a stupendously low-rent set of pretenders who manage not only to fail to do the bare minimum to comply with the lease, but also thereupon torpedo another sweetheart deal with ASU by forgetting about NDAs.
• Franchise finally gets a general manager who seems to know what he's doing, just as the guy who buys out the IceClowns runs out of money to pay for a roster.

Any others? I'm sure I'm missing about a thousand more. This franchise is definitely cursed.

The only thing the Coyotes have timed well is Shane Doan's number retirement, which will 99.99999% positively will take place before the franchise can relocate to Houston.

I mean, we can talk about their NHL history in Winnipeg too. This franchise has never had a chance since 1979.

 

[TheLegend]

Thats not salient to my point

Sure as hell is....

You highlighted the fact that the attendance was it’s worse for the years when the team was in the playoffs.

That’s a weak attempt to push some sort of narrative that winning in Phoenix doesn’t make a difference in attendance. But in the process you completely ignored several key factors in the environment surrounding those years.

 

[Anisimovs AK]

Sure as hell is....

You highlighted the fact that the attendance was it’s worse for the years when the team was in the playoffs.

That’s a weak attempt to push some sort of narrative that winning in Phoenix doesn’t make a difference in attendance. But in the process you completely ignored several key factors in the environment surrounding those years.

No it wasnt. Thats a lot of assumption you piled into that incredibly inaccurate inference.

I was responding to someone who said that last time their was a playoff push attendance steadily increased. It did not, as I pointed out. Thats as far reaching as my post goes. [MOD]

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I was responding to someone who said that last time their was a playoff push attendance steadily increased. It did not, as I pointed out.

Show your work. Here's my source: Phoenix Coyotes 2011-2012 Attendance | Hockey Attendance

...and here's my source for the playoff attendance: Phoenix Coyotes 2011-2012 Playoffs Attendance | Hockey Attendance

A good example is the delta in attendance between the Coyotes' first game against the Ducks in 2011-2012 and their final regular-season tilt against Anaheim, which is nearly 6,500 tickets. If you know what the word "context" means, then you should understand that going into the 2011-2012 season, two ownership bids to buy the Coyotes from bankruptcy - IceEdge and Matthew Hulsizer - had collapsed, and the NHL threatened to relocate the franchise until Glendale made what essentially was a ransom payment to keep the team where it was. So when the season started, the team was looked upon as a lame duck franchise that was on its way out of town. Most people without an axe to grind would understand how that would sap the fans' appetite to invest in the team.

Furthermore, I went to all 41 home games in 2011-2012, so I saw with my own eyes the steady increase in attendance from the start of the year until the playoffs as the team's record proved to be competitive over time. I don't believe that you can say the same.

 

[Anisimovs AK]

Show your work. Here's my source: Phoenix Coyotes 2011-2012 Attendance | Hockey Attendance

...and here's my source for the playoff attendance: Phoenix Coyotes 2011-2012 Playoffs Attendance | Hockey Attendance

A good example is the delta in attendance between the Coyotes' first game against the Ducks in 2011-2012 and their final regular-season tilt against Anaheim, which is nearly 6,500 tickets. If you know what the word "context" means, then you should understand that going into the 2011-2012 season, two ownership bids to buy the Coyotes from bankruptcy - IceEdge and Matthew Hulsizer - had collapsed, and the NHL threatened to relocate the franchise until Glendale made what essentially was a ransom payment to keep the team where it was. So when the season started, the team was looked upon as a lame duck franchise that was on its way out of town. Most people without an axe to grind would understand how that would sap the fans' appetite to invest in the team.

Furthermore, I went to all 41 home games in 2011-2012, so I saw with my own eyes the steady increase in attendance from the start of the year until the playoffs as the team's record proved to be competitive over time. I don't believe that you can say the same.

Thats the source Im using too, and the source shows the Coyotes having 3 games with over 90 percent capacity in Feb whereas they only had one after March 1st. And again, the 3 consecutive years off playoffs culminating in a conference final were the least attended in the franchise's Arizona tenure. So much for playoff viability leading to increased attendance

Speaking of context, comparing a game the night before thanksgiving to one on a Saturday night (Coyotes weekend games usually have higher attendance than weeknight games) is ridiculous

Really dont know why Im getting so much pushback for simply fact checking someone's statement.

 

[MNNumbers]

Thats the source Im using too, and the source shows the Coyotes having 3 games with over 90 percent capacity in Feb whereas they only had one after March 1st. And again, the 3 consecutive years off playoffs culminating in a conference final were the least attended in the franchise's Arizona tenure. So much for playoff viability leading to increased attendance

Speaking of context, comparing a game the night before thanksgiving to one on a Saturday night (Coyotes weekend games usually have higher attendance than weeknight games) is ridiculous

Really dont know why Im getting so much pushback for simply fact checking someone's statement.

The pushback is because local fans feel like this (and they are largely right):
Any time someone starts talking about the poor attendance for the Coyotes, it's always accompanied by statements like "The team should be moved. It will never be supported there." Many posters here have made such comments.

The local fans, mostly, feel like this:
Yes, we know the attendance hasn't been great. We know it looks bad. But the poor attendance is NOT only a result of the market here. It's also a result of the poor ownership, the BK, the NHL running the team poorly, and the media reporting rumors of a relocation every year. No market could survive that. If you need a further example, look at Ottawa presently. The fans there are upset with the owner. That's the reason this year's attendance is down.

Concerning the 11-12 season, rather than "how many games above 90% were there in February and March", a better metric might be "how many games were below 80% in January compared to March"? I wouldn't use February and March as a comparison of how a market responded to playoff push in any situation when the place was sold out for the playoff games.

To add more: Look at 12-13. One thing that makes sense is that the season following a playoff run, there is more interest in the team in the regular season, especially in the early season. That's exactly what you find here. 1500 more tickets every game on average.

 

[Anisimovs AK]

The pushback is because local fans feel like this (and they are largely right):
Any time someone starts talking about the poor attendance for the Coyotes, it's always accompanied by statements like "The team should be moved. It will never be supported there." Many posters here have made such comments.

The local fans, mostly, feel like this:
Yes, we know the attendance hasn't been great. We know it looks bad. But the poor attendance is NOT only a result of the market here. It's also a result of the poor ownership, the BK, the NHL running the team poorly, and the media reporting rumors of a relocation every year. No market could survive that. If you need a further example, look at Ottawa presently. The fans there are upset with the owner. That's the reason this year's attendance is down.

Concerning the 11-12 season, rather than "how many games above 90% were there in February and March", a better metric might be "how many games were below 80% in January compared to March"? I wouldn't use February and March as a comparison of how a market responded to playoff push in any situation when the place was sold out for the playoff games.

To add more: Look at 12-13. One thing that makes sense is that the season following a playoff run, there is more interest in the team in the regular season, especially in the early season. That's exactly what you find here. 1500 more tickets every game on average.

Look, Im a Blue Jackets fan, so attendance smack something I really cant partake in

 

[The Feckless Puck]

And again, the 3 consecutive years off playoffs culminating in a conference final were the least attended in the franchise's Arizona tenure.

I wondered whether you knew the meaning of the word "context." Apparently, you do not, as you have completely ignored the fact that the three consecutive years of playoff appearances took place during a bankruptcy, two near-relocations that included Jim Balsillie's hijacking attempt, an endless news cycle focus featuring the Goldwater Institute regarding ownership and government subsidy, etc. ad nauseum. Hence, the games that were less than 40% filled to arena capacity (even lower than the actual numbers posted, because in the first couple of bankruptcy years, several games were "papered" and/or were deliberately overestimated by the team - again, I was there, so I saw the evidence) and the cratering of average attendance over those years.

Really dont know why Im getting so much pushback for simply fact checking someone's statement.

Because you're cherry-picking your facts and presenting them out of context. Not exactly a new thing around the megathreads (and especially not in the main board), but it still leaves a lot to be desired in terms of methodology.

Look, Im a Blue Jackets fan, so attendance smack something I really cant partake in

But you are, if you're engaging in this discussion by being selective about (or willfully ignorant of) influencing factors on data points.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Look, Im a Blue Jackets fan, so attendance smack something I really cant partake in

Heh, my one visit to Columbus was during Thanksgiving week after a particularly slow start by CBJ (2014), and it's true. It looked familiar. Nicer scoreboard, though (but that's been fixed for us) The CBJ STH sitting behind me and I were commiserating.

 

[Anisimovs AK]

I wondered whether you knew the meaning of the word "context." Apparently, you do not, as you have completely ignored the fact that the three consecutive years of playoff appearances took place during a bankruptcy, two near-relocations that included Jim Balsillie's hijacking attempt, an endless news cycle focus featuring the Goldwater Institute regarding ownership and government subsidy, etc. ad nauseum. Hence, the games that were less than 40% filled to arena capacity (even lower than the actual numbers posted, because in the first couple of bankruptcy years, several games were "papered" and/or were deliberately overestimated by the team - again, I was there, so I saw the evidence) and the cratering of average attendance over those years.



Because you're cherry-picking your facts and presenting them out of context. Not exactly a new thing around the megathreads (and especially not in the main board), but it still leaves a lot to be desired in terms of methodology.



But you are, if you're engaging in this discussion by being selective about (or willfully ignorant of) influencing factors on data points.

You're preaching to the wrong choir with the martyrdom act bud.

I corrected the guy's statement. That was the purpose of what I said. The attendance didnt pick up. All of this other nonsense is irrelevant to that correction. Im not trying to tie this into some overarching narrative like you are. [MOD]

 

[Anisimovs AK]

Heh, my one visit to Columbus was during Thanksgiving week after a particularly slow start by CBJ (2014), and it's true. It looked familiar. Nicer scoreboard, though (but that's been fixed for us) The CBJ STH sitting behind me and I were commiserating.

Considering the relative success the Jackets have had recently the attendance (especially during football season) has been slightly disappointing. Maybe winning a playoff series fixes that

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I corrected the guy's statement. That was the purpose of what I said. The attendance didnt pick up. All of this other nonsense is irrelevant to that correction. Im not trying to tie this into some overarching narrative like you are. [MOD]

You "corrected" my initial statement, which was that over the course of the 2011-2012 season attendance trended upward as the season wore on and the team was in a spot to contend for the post-season. You claim that this is not the case. Your claim is not valid.

And it's not martyrdom. It's telling the whole story - including the fact that several of the early games in 2011 were intentionally misreported by the team to hide the fact that less than 4,000 people showed up for a couple of contests.

 

[Sabretooth]

Thats the source Im using too, and the source shows the Coyotes having 3 games with over 90 percent capacity in Feb whereas they only had one after March 1st.

Concerning the 11-12 season, rather than "how many games above 90% were there in February and March", a better metric might be "how many games were below 80% in January compared to March"?

I mean you guys could just plot the data and visualize the trend as well

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I mean you guys could just plot the data and visualize the trend as well

Hey, cut it out with your reasonable suggestions, we're having an internet argument over here...

 

[TheLegend]

You know earlier I left out an item where Jerry Moyes deliberately driving away STH sales in 2009 by informing them they could lose their deposits from his BK filing.

Which resulted in cutting the STH base in half but that’s not an important fact because it’s just pushback.

 

[Llama19]

Arizona Coyotes mailbag: Trade-deadline speculation, injury updates and pop-culture potpourri

Q: with the Sale of the #coyotes#yotes#ourpack inevitable, it needs to be addressed that the new owner will need to have enough personal wealth to arrange financing for a new arena WITHOUT public $'s ... do you have any idea of the buyer's wealth?
— ICPhonyPeople (@IcPhony) January 7, 2019

A: It's difficult to speculate when you don't know the identity of the buyer. While I've heard some names mentioned as to who that potential buyer could be, I haven't received satisfactory confirmation on any of them to feel comfortable reporting that information.

Until we have a confirmed name of a potential buyer, that question is kind of hard to answer.

Q: Haven’t heard boo about a new stadium other than denisls of moving. Is anything happening on this front? Is Pattetson still “consulting” on the arena?
— Jeff Inwood (@NewfieJeff) January 7, 2019

A: First off, Patterson was replaced by Ahron Cohen as President and CEO of the team back in July. As far as the new arena is concerned, I'm told the team has continued to explore several options, but many of them are tied to what will happen with the Coyotes' ownership situation. We'll all just have to be patient.

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nhl/coyotes/2019/01/08/arizona-coyotes-mailbag-trade-deadline-speculation-injury-updates-pop-culture-potpourri/2509133002/

 

[awfulwaffle]

So in other news, no news to report?

 

[Mightygoose]

From Imminent to not so imminent?

Senators have busy eight weeks ahead — The Fourth Period

To quote

SUNDOWN IN ARIZONA

These rollercoaster ownership negotiations involving the Arizona Coyotes are back in familiar territory.
Just when it appeared Coyotes owner Andrew Barroway was inching closer to selling the franchise and talks had, as I was told at the time, sped up, it seems they’ve hit a wall, once again.
A sale involving the Coyotes is not considered imminent, as of today, and while the wheels are definitely in motion, progress has slowed.
One bright side in all of this: I can confirm there are at least two separate groups/parties with legitimate interest in purchasing the Coyotes and keeping them in Arizona (providing they can secure a new building after the fact).
It’s clear Barroway will be out as majority owner of the club when all is said and done, but it’s unclear as to when a sale will actually happen.
There are concerns over how much debt Barroway and the Coyotes have taken on – a figure now around $300 million – and how much of that/the returns will/won’t be paid back to its lenders.
By all accounts, what I was told in early-December may be most accurate and that is the “hope” around the NHL is a deal gets done by the end of the regular-season.

End Quote

Prognosis of sale via Mr. Pagnotta goes from end of 2018 to end of the season to as early as January now to hope it gets done by the end of the regular season again.

So it's 2 groups hitting a wall now.

 

[Fairview]

The most interesting thing is that through all this talk of imminent sale thru dialogue about how things are definitely moving ahead (very complicated, though)is that there has never been any name linked to the purchase of the team. Now we learn that there are 2 unnamed groups (only 2), that can't wait to get their hands on the team. What we keep hearing is the same old..same old NHL line. This continues to go in the direction that I presumed it would go, from the moment the mythical investor was created last fall. Next stop..the AllStar break, where the dialog will be changed to July 1st.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Arizona Coyotes mailbag: Trade-deadline speculation, injury updates and pop-culture potpourri

Q: with the Sale of the #coyotes#yotes#ourpack inevitable, it needs to be addressed that the new owner will need to have enough personal wealth to arrange financing for a new arena WITHOUT public $'s ... do you have any idea of the buyer's wealth?
— ICPhonyPeople (@IcPhony) January 7, 2019

A: It's difficult to speculate when you don't know the identity of the buyer. While I've heard some names mentioned as to who that potential buyer could be, I haven't received satisfactory confirmation on any of them to feel comfortable reporting that information.

Until we have a confirmed name of a potential buyer, that question is kind of hard to answer.

Q: Haven’t heard boo about a new stadium other than denisls of moving. Is anything happening on this front? Is Pattetson still “consulting” on the arena?
— Jeff Inwood (@NewfieJeff) January 7, 2019

A: First off, Patterson was replaced by Ahron Cohen as President and CEO of the team back in July. As far as the new arena is concerned, I'm told the team has continued to explore several options, but many of them are tied to what will happen with the Coyotes' ownership situation. We'll all just have to be patient.

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nhl/coyotes/2019/01/08/arizona-coyotes-mailbag-trade-deadline-speculation-injury-updates-pop-culture-potpourri/2509133002/

This is why the megathread went on hiatus. When it did, I wrote a status report as we entered it. Basically it was more detailed, but this is the TL;DR version.

Interesting that this sort of info is getting written about now though. I'm not some genious predictor, it was just looking at what the situation was.

EDIT: OMG someone just messaged me a picture of one of the new owners - here he is:

 

[Dirty Old Man]

So in other news, no news to report?

 

[aqib]

You can't ask anyone around here or F40 about the "center of the Valley" because they'll always say it's Scottsdale, no matter what actually happens.

Beyond that, though, there are two different definitions of "center." Geographically speaking, and based on sprawl and development, the center of the metro area is definitely moving west. But that's not what most folks will point to in terms of the, I guess, philosophic center, which they will invariably place somewhere down an extremely narrow corridor that stretches from North Scottsdale down to Tempe.

What is F40?

So is it that the wealthier suburbs are generally on the east side? or is it old money east and new money west?

Whats the outlook on the West side?

 

[Anisimovs AK]

You "corrected" my initial statement, which was that over the course of the 2011-2012 season attendance trended upward as the season wore on and the team was in a spot to contend for the post-season. You claim that this is not the case. Your claim is not valid.

And it's not martyrdom. It's telling the whole story - including the fact that several of the early games in 2011 were intentionally misreported by the team to hide the fact that less than 4,000 people showed up for a couple of contests.

Oh so you were talking about that one playoff year and not all 3? Because your initial statement didnt specifically mention 2011-12. But I guess we are now only judging the last year you guys made the playoffs and not the other 2.

Ok then whatever, with this new criteria you are slightly correct.

 

[Anisimovs AK]

You know earlier I left out an item where Jerry Moyes deliberately driving away STH sales in 2009 by informing them they could lose their deposits from his BK filing.

Which resulted in cutting the STH base in half but that’s not an important fact because it’s just pushback.

Had I mentioned or asked for reasons why the attendance dropped then all of these mitigating circumstances you keep bringing up to explain it would matter. I only commented at face value. Because of how people treat/talk about the Coyotes previously you just assume its someone jumping on the "relocation bandwagon".

I can see now anything not overtly positive or negative mentioned about this team is going to be spun that way by either the pro relocation side or the pro keep em in Arizona side. Its been an illuminating experience.

Cheers