Phoenix CXIII: Astrobucks, Omnishambles, and Other Catchy Words

[mesamonster]

Well at least you're admitting they'll be around in "years to come" per the end of your first paragraph.

Thing about arenas (regarding ASU) is that they can be partitioned off with a simple curtain. This would allow for larger events as well as small and the university could benefit from them.

A pessimists view is fine and dandy for the ol' "ying and yang" etc., but it really does very little for one interested in making something, or becoming something.

Have you been in an arena partitoned off? Looks terrible feels cheap, and why build something you don`t need? The extra seats are one thing, the cost to maintain and operate an 18,000 seat arena is an entirely different animal than a smaller 5-8000 seat venue. Don`t forget, you are partnering with a group that has no money, so the University will be responsible for the added expense!

 

[CasualFan]

I feel like this AHL franchise moving and stuff is to throw everyone off tracks for a few more weeks.

What a schrwed maneuver that would be - and probably cheaper than faking a moon landing to throw us off

 

[TheLegend]

Have you been in an arena partitoned off? Looks terrible feels cheap, and why build something you don`t need? The extra seats are one thing, the cost to maintain and operate an 18,000 seat arena is an entirely different animal than a smaller 5-8000 seat venue. Don`t forget, you are partnering with a group that has no money, so the University will be responsible for the added expense!

Wells Fargo Arena seats up to 14,000 now. I believe basketball seating is around 11,000. A 16-17k arena isn't going to be that much more to operate.

TNSE built MTS Centre without any guarantee of getting an NHL franchise and operated it for years as an AHL arena with the top deck tarped off. Manitoba Moose had one of the best attendance record in the AHL so I doubt a tarped off upper lever mattered that much.

Add in the value that a large arena offers in obtaining post season events (NCAA regionals, Frozen Four plus major concert events).

 

[Killion]

What a schrwed maneuver that would be - and probably cheaper than faking a moon landing to throw us off

... also.... Stanley Kubricks dead. Secrets went with, Widows not talking.... Or are you thinkin Tarantino?... CF?....

Add in the value that a large arena offers in obtaining post season events (NCAA regionals, Frozen Four plus major concert events).

Sure... but do you know how many tens of millions were talking about to build in an ice plant, double capacity dressing rooms etc.... unobstructed dual BB & Hockey seating etc TL?... You want I pencil it out?... And why, in Metro Phoenix, when you already have Talking Stick & GRA more than capable of hosting either at a fraction of the cost?

 

[kihekah19*]

Have you been in an arena partitoned off? Looks terrible feels cheap, and why build something you don`t need? The extra seats are one thing, the cost to maintain and operate an 18,000 seat arena is an entirely different animal than a smaller 5-8000 seat venue. Don`t forget, you are partnering with a group that has no money, so the University will be responsible for the added expense!

As a matter of fact I have on several occasions and I disagree, looks like a large black curtain that doesn't "feel" either cheap or luxurious. But then I tend to watch what's happening on the rink and am the type that couldn't care less if there is a place to "mingle", like "some" do.

 

[Fairview]

The idea that ASU would build this facility with the NHL requirements for IA seems a little hard to believe. Even if you add in the flexibility for various NCAA tournaments and concerts the upside for ASU would seem to be very minimal at best.To survive, IA is going to need all those extra revenues anyways. The only reason that ASU builds it that way would be because they want the Coyotes to survive even if it is not in the best interests of ASU programming. I find it hard to believe that ASU would value the health of an NHL franchise over the success of their programming.

 

[TheLegend]

Sure... but do you know how many tens of millions were talking about to build in an ice plant, double capacity dressing rooms etc.... unobstructed dual BB & Hockey seating etc TL?... You want I pencil it out?... And why, in Metro Phoenix, when you already have Talking Stick & GRA more than capable of hosting either at a fraction of the cost?

The point was about the difference in a 14K arena and an 18K. Ice making gear won't be any different.

I've been to GRA for basketball events. It's not as intimate but when you consider the NCAA has used NFL stadiums for the Final Four why would a hockey arena be different?

People who go to Staples Center in LA don't seem to have an issue.

 

[madhi19]

The idea that ASU would build this facility with the NHL requirements for IA seems a little hard to believe. Even if you add in the flexibility for various NCAA tournaments and concerts the upside for ASU would seem to be very minimal at best.To survive, IA is going to need all those extra revenues anyways. The only reason that ASU builds it that way would be because they want the Coyotes to survive even if it is not in the best interests of ASU programming. I find it hard to believe that ASU would value the health of an NHL franchise over the success of their programming.

Come to think about it would ASU be best served to just cut a deal to rent GRA from AEG when the Yotes are out? It probably be cheaper than building your own barn. Or is Glendale too far from their campus.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Come to think about it would ASU be best served to just cut a deal to rent GRA from AEG when the Yotes are out? It probably be cheaper than building your own barn. Or is Glendale too far from their campus.

Too far from campus for students.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Have you been in an arena partitoned off? Looks terrible feels cheap, and why build something you don`t need? The extra seats are one thing, the cost to maintain and operate an 18,000 seat arena is an entirely different animal than a smaller 5-8000 seat venue. Don`t forget, you are partnering with a group that has no money, so the University will be responsible for the added expense!

If you build an arena to be multipurpose and specifically design it to be partitioned depending on usage, it doesn't have to be a terribly cheap curtain that blocks off portions of the building.

In fact, there is a large auditorium where I work that is built to be subdivided into classroom space, and when the dividers are in place you would never know you were in a larger facility.

What I'm saying is that if it's designed that way in the first place it wouldn't look or feel cheap whatsoever. So that's not a valid argument against.

 

[Killion]

The point was about the difference in a 14K arena and an 18K. Ice making gear won't be any different.

I've been to GRA for basketball events. It's not as intimate but when you consider the NCAA has used NFL stadiums for the Final Four why would a hockey arena be different?

People who go to Staples Center in LA don't seem to have an issue.

Thats quite a bit different TL. Huge entertainment district surrounding it of the kind to wit Westgate aspires....
Staples has location location location going for it yet here "the plan" is to apparently again take land like this...

... just as the site of UofP Stadium, GRA & Westgate once was & just build again huh?

... Makes absolutely no sense. The very definition of insanity.

 

[Whileee]

The idea that ASU would build this facility with the NHL requirements for IA seems a little hard to believe. Even if you add in the flexibility for various NCAA tournaments and concerts the upside for ASU would seem to be very minimal at best.To survive, IA is going to need all those extra revenues anyways. The only reason that ASU builds it that way would be because they want the Coyotes to survive even if it is not in the best interests of ASU programming. I find it hard to believe that ASU would value the health of an NHL franchise over the success of their programming.

I could understand ASU partnering with IA to build an NHL size arena if it is more profitable for them. But if IA insists on sucking out more than their share of profits to subsidize the Coyotes, hard to imagine why ASU would want to partner with them. If IA doesn't want any subsidies, what's wrong with the GRA where they could have renegotiated a lease and still had a handsome subsidy in a state-of-the-art arena, paying no rent?

 

[Gotaf7]

I could understand ASU partnering with IA to build an NHL size arena if it is more profitable for them. But if IA insists on sucking out more than their share of profits to subsidize the Coyotes, hard to imagine why ASU would want to partner with them. If IA doesn't want any subsidies, what's wrong with the GRA where they could have renegotiated a lease and still had a handsome subsidy in a state-of-the-art arena, paying no rent?

This is what I don't understand, how is moving to a new barn with no subsidy going to be better financially than staying at GRA?

 

[TheLegend]

I could understand ASU partnering with IA to build an NHL size arena if it is more profitable for them. But if IA insists on sucking out more than their share of profits to subsidize the Coyotes, hard to imagine why ASU would want to partner with them. If IA doesn't want any subsidies, what's wrong with the GRA where they could have renegotiated a lease and still had a handsome subsidy in a state-of-the-art arena, paying no rent?

I get what you're trying to say Whileee, but for clarity, the Coyotes pay $500k in rent at GRA. Even when AEG takes over arena management they will still pay the same. Beyond that is anyone's guess but they will still be more than likely paying a rent if they extend beyond 2016-17.

 

[TheLegend]

Thats quite a bit different TL. Huge entertainment district surrounding it of the kind to wit Westgate aspires....
Staples has location location location going for it yet here "the plan" is to apparently again take land like this...

... just as the site of UofP Stadium, GRA & Westgate once was & just build again huh?

... Makes absolutely no sense. The very definition of insanity.

We were referring to just the arena, K. Since we do not know the extent of whatever project they end up with (IF it comes to fruition) it has to remain out of the equation.

 

[MNNumbers]

This is what I don't understand, how is moving to a new barn with no subsidy going to be better financially than staying at GRA?

I get what you're trying to say Whileee, but for clarity, the Coyotes pay $500k in rent at GRA. Even when AEG takes over arena management they will still pay the same. Beyond that is anyone's guess but they will still be more than likely paying a rent if they extend beyond 2016-17.

I could understand ASU partnering with IA to build an NHL size arena if it is more profitable for them. But if IA insists on sucking out more than their share of profits to subsidize the Coyotes, hard to imagine why ASU would want to partner with them. If IA doesn't want any subsidies, what's wrong with the GRA where they could have renegotiated a lease and still had a handsome subsidy in a state-of-the-art arena, paying no rent?

To reply to all of these.....

Rent: Yes, Coyotes pay 500K rent. Always have. Did this year. Will next year.
Management Subsidy: IA organization was given 15M/yr. Last year 6.5M. This is the piece which may allow the whole thing to be profitable/neutral

So, new arena:
If the Coyotes are paying rent 500K or free (500K makes little difference, really), then the only advantage of a new arena is location, with more tickets sold at higher prices. I don't want to do the math all over again (as it has been done often here), but the increases to make up for the lost 15M/yr AMF are not going to come along. Therefore, with no subsidies, the whole organization may do better than presently, but i think they will still bleed cash.

If the IA organization can get themselves an AMF from whoever is their partner, then they have a real chance to make it.

It is my guess that the holdup on a new arena is:
In the case of Phoenix, the city is not interested in building for the Yotes, and the organization won't show financials, so why should they?
In the case of ASU, the problem (my guess) is that ASU wants to see the financials, the size of the arena is a question, and the big one is "who will get the cash from running it?"
In the case of the Tribe, I have no guess what is going on.

 

[Killion]

It is my guess that the holdup on a new arena is:
In the case of Phoenix, the city is not interested in building for the Yotes, and the organization won't show financials, so why should they?
In the case of ASU, the problem (my guess) is that ASU wants to see the financials, the size of the arena is a question, and the big one is "who will get the cash from running it?"
In the case of the Tribe, I have no guess what is going on.

Agree, and no, no idea whats going on with the Tribe. Thats the Wild Card & really their only hope for a new facility. Impossible to read at the moment....One other possibility does remain... that something is worked out between the COG, AEG & IA.

 

[Confucius]

What a schrwed maneuver that would be - and probably cheaper than faking a moon landing to throw us off

Let me be quite clear, yes the U S landed on the moon but just maybe some of the video we were shown was indeed faked. Afterall look how secretive the U S is about their cutting edge technology. The moon landing lem would have been pretty cutting edge. I think the U S wouldn't want to help out the competition by showing too much of their equipment.

 

[madhi19]

One other possibility does remain... that something is worked out between the COG, AEG & IA.

I think the whole point of getting AEG was to isolate Glendale from that sort of crap. The moment IA want to put pressure on the COG they will just refer them to AEG. Good luck blackmailing a subsidy out of a private corporation.

 

[TheLegend]

I think the whole point of getting AEG was to isolate Glendale from that sort of crap. The moment IA want to put pressure on the COG they will just refer them to AEG. Good luck blackmailing a subsidy out of a private corporation.

A corporation that has a seat on the same board (NHL) as IA.

 

[Fairview]

This is the whole IA M.O. though. They can't do anything for themselves. No money to purchase the team..no problem..hello Fortress..hello NHL LOC ...hello no interest no payment NHL loan.. hello Glendale subsidy to pay Fortress. They need to find someone to fund an arena...they know what to do...Special Tax districts, piggy back on ASU, hope that a tribe has more money than brains. All they need is another mole like Tyndal and some "pie in the sky" financial predictions. That will get it done!!!

They are nothing more than a group of moochers..always arriving on the scene with their hand out.

The worst part of this whole thing is that the NHL just went through this begging for an arena (with a previous ownership group) and got what they wanted. If this location was an issue, why didn't they mention it at anytime before Glendale kicked their butts? Excuses,excuses.

Anyone partnering with these guys better have big wallets with an endless supply of cash.

 

[MNNumbers]

Concerning Glendale:

No voting meeting this coming Tuesday.

The council meeting is an all-day meeting devoted to budget.

The agenda for the executive session includes consultation with the city attorney in regard to management of the arena.

Which leads me to believe the contract is not done yet, or the council lacks sufficient agreement to pass the contract.

 

[TheLegend]

Concerning Glendale:

No voting meeting this coming Tuesday.

The council meeting is an all-day meeting devoted to budget.

The agenda for the executive session includes consultation with the city attorney in regard to management of the arena.

Which leads me to believe the contract is not done yet, or the council lacks sufficient agreement to pass the contract.

Gotta love all this hurry up and wait stuff, eh??

 

[gelu88]

What i'm wondering is, what does Bill Foley think about all this?

He's apparently ready to spend $500 million on a new franchise, but I can't imagine he's a fool. Ditto the NHL themselves.

They must have some understanding that that this Phoenix team may be up for grabs in the next few years (to be charitable) perhaps sooner.

I'm impressed with how this expansion process by the NHL has worked out, How has Vegas been put on the clock such that they must buy in immediately with an inflated expansion fee? It's amazing.

IA is delaying long enough that the relocation that most people here seem to think is inevitable will be pushed to 2017. Does that mean the League basically fleeced Foley for ~$300 million? (assuming a Jets-like relocation fee).

Is anyone aware of why the Vegas situation is not in a position to wait and see how this process unfolds? or could they perhaps be negotiating some relief in their expansion agreement to make up for it?

It's simply hard to believe everyone is acting as if it's business as usual and end up blindsided as this all unwinds...

 

[powerstuck]

What i'm wondering is, what does Bill Foley think about all this?

He's apparently ready to spend $500 million on a new franchise, but I can't imagine he's a fool. Ditto the NHL themselves.

They must have some understanding that that this Phoenix team may be up for grabs in the next few years (to be charitable) perhaps sooner.

I'm impressed with how this expansion process by the NHL has worked out, How has Vegas been put on the clock such that they must buy in immediately with an inflated expansion fee? It's amazing.

IA is delaying long enough that the relocation that most people here seem to think is inevitable will be pushed to 2017. Does that mean the League basically fleeced Foley for ~$300 million? (assuming a Jets-like relocation fee).

Is anyone aware of why the Vegas situation is not in a position to wait and see how this process unfolds? or could they perhaps be negotiating some relief in their expansion agreement to make up for it?

It's simply hard to believe everyone is acting as if it's business as usual and end up blindsided as this all unwinds...

I guess Foley doesn't care what happens in AZ...simply because he know either way he's getting an expansion team.

Right Gary ?