Phoenix CXI: Awaiting CoG arena manager decision [UPD: AEG new Arena Manager?]

[MNNumbers]

I just wanted to point out that LeBlanc's promises to COG <schoolgirl analogies come to mind> didn't work on FIG.

Oh, right. That's kind of the other side of the coin.

Again, upthread I asked, "Are we talking about how much IA lost when they lost the AM contract? or are we talking about the losses sustained by CoG? Because they are 2 different things.

 

[GuelphStormer]

Oh, right. That's kind of the other side of the coin.

Again, upthread I asked, "Are we talking about how much IA lost when they lost the AM contract? or are we talking about the losses sustained by CoG? Because they are 2 different things.

my old director used to raise a hand in meetings and simply say "what's the research question again?"

it was a very effective way of bringing discussion back on to one page. these sorts of concurrent discussion boards don't lend themselves to strict linearity - which is both fun and frustrating

 

[Ciao]

Well, we're venturing into supposition here, but IMO I'd say that they a) have significant existing resources to fund a new arena and b) their income stream is enough to make debt servicing and eventual payoff a rather easier thing for them than for, say, City of Phoenix or ASU.

The Suns are the biggest wildcard. If you ask me, the Salt River folks had an arena plan already in place when Glendale torpedoed IceArizona. Prior to the Westgate fireworks, building an arena likely was a bit more of a gamble because if they built it and the Suns eventually decided to stay in Phoenix, they'd be in trouble. Assuming, of course, that all of this supposition on my part is true, the Glendale/Coyotes fracas could not have come at a better time for the tribe.

Now, I'm fully expecting that all of my theorizing is going to be proven false somehow, but to me on the ground here in the Valley there seems to be some degree of sense to the whole thing that is absent in the other two potential landing spots for the hockey team.

Don't let anyone rain on your parade, TFP. Spectator sports are all about hope - for this year, for next year and for years ever after. If you lose hope. It's time to pack it in and find another hobby.

I will admit that the whole "build-me-an-arena" thing sounds a little far-fetched to the untrained ear, but that doesn't matter. You're talking to a Leafs fan here who hopes the Leafs will one day make the playoffs and win the Stanley Cup -- and some say that sounds a little far-fetched too.

So, if a new arena saving the day for the Coyotes sounds about right to you, then enjoy that just as I'll continue to enjoy visions of Nazem Kadri, William Nylander and maybe even Steven Stamkos in Leafs jerseys carrying the Cup around the Air Canada Centre.

I really couldn't say that one is more or less probable than the other

 

[Ciao]

... ya, as I said, its only thing that does make sense at this time & given the timelines signaled by LeBlanc. As Bettman also commented on the matter during the ASG Break, then one could also assume that he's aware of possible Band involvement and in backing LeBlanc's statements doesnt have a problem with the club potentially doing business with them, arena on native land, built & paid for in a P3 of sorts. Then again, could be all smoke.

Careful now, Killion! Smoke-sgnals coming from the Band? We aren't going to get infracted here, are we?

I suppose you would have to be a local to know what those smoke-signals mean. Do they mean "Suns or bust", or "Welcome Coyotes and be our guest", or something different like "Welcome Coyotes and bring your own cash"?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Don't let anyone rain on your parade, TFP. Spectator sports are all about hope - for this year, for next year and for years ever after. If you lose hope. It's time to pack it in and find another hobby.

I will admit that the whole "build-me-an-arena" thing sounds a little far-fetched to the untrained ear, but that doesn't matter. You're talking to a Leafs fan here who hopes the Leafs will one day make the playoffs and win the Stanley Cup -- and some say that sounds a little far-fetched too.

So, if a new arena saving the day for the Coyotes sounds about right to you, then enjoy that just as I'll continue to enjoy visions of Nazem Kadri, William Nylander and maybe even Steven Stamkos in Leafs jerseys carrying the Cup around the Air Canada Centre.

I really couldn't say that one is more or less probable than the other

Dude, you've got Shanny and Babcock on your side, and you somehow traded Dion Phaneuf's contract... it's gonna happen sooner or later...

 

[JimAnchower]

Now, I'm fully expecting that all of my theorizing is going to be proven false somehow, but to me on the ground here in the Valley there seems to be some degree of sense to the whole thing that is absent in the other two potential landing spots for the hockey team.

It does look like it is the only possibility for a new arena announcement that could happen in the next two months. Phoenix's mayor has already said that they are looking at this over the next few years and CF has shot holes in the ASU theory. I still have serious questions as to whether it will happen, but it is all that's left right now.

I would look to see if the NHL floats this possibility up a flagpole soon to see what the media, fans, sponsors, and other owners think of a NHL team partnering up with a group that also owns a casino. There may be no objection, but you don't want to to make the arena announcement only to be caught off guard with public/private outcries.

 

[Whileee]

Oh, I agree completely, Fugu. The question I was addressing was that of Legend, who wondered why we keep quoting 15M, as if it was a free and clear subsidy.

My comments about that are in the general area of: How much has actually been lost since the Coyotes no longer have the 15M/yr available? These are monies which need to be recovered as you mentioned above - local revenues of some kind.

That the whole organization seems to have been losing $$, even WITH the 15M/yr speaks volumes about what will happen without it. Namely, more losses yet.

The question in my mind continues to be.....

Who finances the losses?

As has been asked... Suppose there were a new facility with a favorable AMF arrangement being built starting tomorrow. There are still 3 issues....

1- How much money would the organization continue to lose even with the new AMF arrangement? In Glendale, it was not zero.....

2- How much money will be lost playing as a renter in any other arena in the years they wait a new facility? Again, large amounts.

3- Who will pay these losses? And, for how long?

The $15m AMF didn't fund operating losses, it paid back the loan for the purchase of the team. The NHL provided an $85m line of credit ($17m per year average) to pay off the losses. It's not clear to me who's now carrying the purchase debt, which is all the more relevant since LeBlank flushed away the AMF deal. Meanwhile, it seems quite likely that the $85m line of credit is maxed out, or close to it. With no near-term replacement for the $15m AMF and heavy debts already accumulated, who pays up when the inevitable cash call comes to keep the team afloat in the next few years? Maybe the tribe swoops in and buys the whole enchilada, retires the debt, and supports the losses in the short term and then builds an arena with a long term subsidy for the Coyotes. But it's a much more onerous financial burden than just partnering in an a arena several years down the road.

I think it's all a big house of cards, with the most logical way to clear the accumulated financial debris being a sale / relocation. I could be wrong, but I think that's also what the City of Glendale figured out and so they cut their losses early.

 

[Whileee]

It does look like it is the only possibility for a new arena announcement that could happen in the next two months. Phoenix's mayor has already said that they are looking at this over the next few years and CF has shot holes in the ASU theory. I still have serious questions as to whether it will happen, but it is all that's left right now.

I would look to see if the NHL floats this possibility up a flagpole soon to see what the media, fans, sponsors, and other owners think of a NHL team partnering up with a group that also owns a casino. There may be no objection, but you don't want to to make the arena announcement only to be caught off guard with public/private outcries.

The Coyotes need a lot more than a future arena to stay afloat for the next few years (see my post above). The tribe would probably have to invest heavily in the team in the short term to keep it afloat. Who's going to keep covering the losses in the near term?

 

[GuelphStormer]

how busy are the casino and resort now? how big are they and are they operating close to full capacity?

does the tribe need arena traffic to make more money there?

this is more interesting than i thot.

 

[TheLegend]

Posting this from a tablet so not sure how it'll come though.

Just found this and haven't listened to it yet but ASU's Anderson was on radio today and if the article is to be believed then so much for cold water.....

But on the surface I don't think it's anything new.

http:// http://ktar.com/story/916493/asu-could-be-open-to-sharing-new-phoenix-arena-with-suns-arizona-coyotes/

 

[Fugu]

Dude, you've got Shanny and Babcock on your side, and you somehow traded Dion Phaneuf's contract... it's gonna happen sooner or later...

Yeah, great. Red Wings Management Development Program. Helping competitors improve!

 

[Killion]

...this is more interesting than i thot.

.... why yes, yes it is GS. Gotta amp it up. As they cant do a deal with a municipality nor does it strike anyone as plausible that beyond perhaps a shared facility with ASU that the Yotes would use for practices within the time-frame (end of season) floated that would leave LeBlanc with 1 of 3 options;

1) Stays put.
2) Finds about $500M in private funding to build a new arena wherever he wants.
3) Does a deal with a Sovereign Nation within a Nation within a State... taking a header right through the Vortex Baby.

The situation as it exists in Az between the Native NA Bands, the State & the Feds is beyond fascinating. Goes way back to the displacement of Tribes from out of country & state being relo'd themselves to Arizona, deeded land & sovereignty there-over through various treaties. Financial aid, economic development funds, you name it. They are wealthy, influential, shrewd, savvy and aggressive. Outside of the realm of BOH & the Coyotes, if you have the time, quick search on the web exploring the history of relationships between the Tribes, between various municipalities & the State of Arizona & the Federal Government all extremely interesting. At this stage in the game likely the only the straw left for LeBlanc to try & clutch... and it just might keep them afloat however, they are going to have to Buck-Up. Theres no way they take a Band for the same ride theyve taken Glendale. Lincoln Continental, suicide doors that theyd thought they'd welded shut. And no $$$, ya thats a problem. Big problem.

 

[JimAnchower]

Posting this from a tablet so not sure how it'll come though.

Just found this and haven't listened to it yet but ASU's Anderson was on radio today and if the article is to be believed then so much for cold water.....

But on the surface I don't think it's anything new.

http://ktar.com/story/916493/asu-could-be-open-to-sharing-new-phoenix-arena-with-suns-arizona-coyotes/

Corrected URL: http://ktar.com/story/916493/asu-could-be-open-to-sharing-new-phoenix-arena-with-suns-arizona-coyotes/

Maybe, perhaps, could, might.

 

[MaskedSonja]

Yeah, great. Red Wings Management Development Program. Helping competitors improve!

Stevie Y in TB, Shanny in Toronto, who is the next team to grab from the Red Wings Development program?

Look at this way, thanks to Detroit the management in the NHL is improving one team at a time!

 

[Fugu]

Stevie Y in TB, Shanny in Toronto, who is the next team to grab from the Red Wings Development program?

Look at this way, thanks to Detroit the management in the NHL is improving one team at a time!

Jim Nill in Dallas!!

Three of Babcock's assistants went on to head coach jobs.

 

[not a troll]

Ugh lets fast forward past this Red Wings love fest and onto something else. Can someone explain to me the downsides to dealing with an Indian nation? Obviously upside is money but what has prevented teams from doing it in the past? The baseball facility they have out there is gorgeous.

 

[Llama19]

Corrected URL: http://ktar.com/story/916493/asu-could-be-open-to-sharing-new-phoenix-arena-with-suns-arizona-coyotes/

Maybe, perhaps, could, might.

Doc, Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy, Bashful, Sneezy, Dopey, and LeBluster(tm)...

 

[Fugu]

Ugh lets fast forward past this Red Wings love fest and onto something else. Can someone explain to me the downsides to dealing with an Indian nation? Obviously upside is money but what has prevented teams from doing it in the past? The baseball facility they have out there is gorgeous.

You have something against the Wings, Chau?


You just don't find the nations in the crowded city centers where most teams are based, history as well. I think as they've grown and flexed their wings (tee hee), found that their land was in a desirable spot, they expanded business investment.

 

[Killion]

Ugh lets fast forward past this Red Wings love fest and onto something else. Can someone explain to me the downsides to dealing with an Indian nation? Obviously upside is money but what has prevented teams from doing it in the past? The baseball facility they have out there is gorgeous.

Legally, potentially lots of problems.... post from the archives.... CasualFan on the issue:

I get what you're saying. And from the subsidy perspective, it makes perfect sense: a Tribal Nation partner would have wide discretion in what they wanted to offer without having to waste any time with Goldwater-type foolishness. However, there are still some thorny legal issues that the league/team would have to deal with: 25 CFR § 162 et seq. (Indians, Leases and Permits); Santa Clara Pueblo (common law immunity), aligning the waiver of immunity with dispute resolution via binding arbitration, etc. In the next permutation, specific to Arizona, Salt River Pima-Maricopa Community has their own code section @ 25 U.S.C. § 416(a). There would be challenging negotiations and many billable hours on the dispute resolution elements.

There's a lot of significant concerns for any professional franchise contemplating a lease on tribal land. I'm not saying that they are completely prohibitive - and the Coyotes/NHL might thrive in a partnership with one of the tribes - but the feasibility assessment would likely be based on what kind of latitude the tribe has on dispute resolution. I do not believe that any professional league could risk having a franchise operate in a building where, if there were a disagreement between the tenant and landlord, the team could be locked out without the option of filing for a civil injunction.

... so..... as you can see... skating on thin ice.... yet... desperation can make for strange bedfellows.... fact is its a gamble. Big one.... All new ground. New precedents. Im not saying it cant be done (nor is CF)... still.... has a rank odor of BS, of subterfuge, conspiracy... like... if you believe NASA managed to send 12 men to the Moon over 4 flights using rocket technology, paper thin capsules.... well... Leblanc's "small lie" kinda pales in comparison huh?

 

[blues10]

Could this be a means to fund the arena on tribal lands?

Tribes may also be able to issue tax-exempt bonds for certain purposes,
offering debt holders interest that is not subject to taxation.65

http://www.pillsburylaw.com/siteFiles/Publications/IndianLaw_WhitePaper_08-31-2010_FINAL.pdf

Edit: I don't know if certain purposes is building $400 million dollar arenas for the Coyotes?


Upon further review

Indian tribes also may not loan or use tax
exempt proceeds to benefit private parties
(i.e., non-governmental users) either
through leasing, use, management or other
preferential arrangements.

https://www.orrick.com/Events-and-Publications/Documents/1591.pdf

 

[Killion]

.. You just don't find the nations in the crowded city centers where most teams are based, history as well. I think as they've grown and flexed their wings (tee hee), found that their land was in a desirable spot, they expanded business investment.

... rather ironic that a number of the Bands were chased out of & fled to the American SW or wound being shipped from (and then Deeded land) their verdant green ancestral territories to Arizona, Florida & elsewhere in the late 19th Century. Given land the Feds considered scrub, worthless. Mean temperatures pushing 130 six months of the year. Dry as bone. As bleak as Mars.

 

[Glacial]

Wouldn't the Suns be subject to the same issue (per CasualFan's post about the perils of being an arena tenant on tribal land)? Of course, couldn't a team work in some kind of mediation clause, legal measures to protect them from that scenario?

Hmmmm. We're getting close to the thread limit. Next title should probably be about the tribal speculation (or ASU speculation). Maybe-
Smoke Signals?
Making Reservations?
Ka¢hinga?
Venue Vision Quest?
Back to School?

 

[Govment Cheese]

Legally, potentially lots of problems.... post from the archives.... CasualFan on the issue:



... so..... as you can see... skating on thin ice.... yet... desperation can make for strange bedfellows.... fact is its a gamble. Big one.... All new ground. New precedents. Im not saying it cant be done (nor is CF)... still.... has a rank odor of BS, of subterfuge, conspiracy... like... if you believe NASA managed to send 12 men to the Moon over 4 flights using rocket technology, paper thin capsules.... well... Leblanc's "small lie" kinda pales in comparison huh?

Not like the NHL hasn't already ignored their ownership rules. Maybe placing a team in a sovereign nation in the US is a test bed for future expansion to Europe/Mexico.

Thread title
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiI8xNDH79g "did anyone see the size of that chicken!"...errrr arena or butterfiles....

 

[Fugu]

Could this be a means to fund the arena on tribal lands?

http://www.pillsburylaw.com/siteFiles/Publications/IndianLaw_WhitePaper_08-31-2010_FINAL.pdf

Edit: I don't know if certain purposes is building $400 million dollar arenas for the Coyotes?


Upon further review

https://www.orrick.com/Events-and-Publications/Documents/1591.pdf

I don't think that says that they can't build an arena and own it, and appoint an operator like any other arena owner.

... rather ironic that a number of the Bands were chased out of & fled to the American SW or wound being shipped from (and then Deeded land) their verdant green ancestral territories to Arizona, Florida & elsewhere in the late 19th Century. Given land the Feds considered scrub, worthless. Mean temperatures pushing 130 six months of the year. Dry as bone. As bleak as Mars.

Rather sad page in our history.

 

[Fugu]

Wouldn't the Suns be subject to the same issue (per CasualFan's post about the perils of being an arena tenant on tribal land)? Of course, couldn't a team work in some kind of mediation clause, legal measures to protect them from that scenario?

Hmmmm. We're getting close to the thread limit. Next title should probably be about the tribal speculation (or ASU speculation). Maybe-
Smoke Signals?
Making Reservations?
Ka¢hinga?
Venue Vision Quest?
Back to School?

I like Smoke Signals, Making Reservations and Venue Vision Quest. Maybe the last one fits best.