Phoenix CXI: Awaiting CoG arena manager decision [UPD: AEG new Arena Manager?]

[The Feckless Puck]

I disagree with you guys. I think Scottsdale-Tempe-Phoenix triangle would be ideal, especially Scottsdale.

You have a lot of people who would agree with you on that. Largely, people from Scottsdale, Tempe, and Phoenix.

If you ask some of my compatriots from F40, they'll tell you I'm a Glendale-or-bust West Sider whose selfishness prohibits him from seeing what's best for the franchise, which is moving east. There may be a little truth to me being selfish - after all, when I total up how much money I've spent on the Coyotes in the past decade, it borders on the disturbing. But I like to think I've been pretty consistent in the past in saying that the Coyotes should be playing in what is now Tempe Marketplace on the map. It's the most central Valley location and, if one was planning a mass transit system for Phoenix, it'd be about where Grand Central Station would be. And since Westgate never became what it was intended to be, and because it remains isolated without any mass transit support, Glendale - its pristine arena notwithstanding - is not an ideal home.

That being said, though, I don't buy into the fiction that an East Valley move is the cure-all for the franchise. It is fiction, you know, no matter how many demographic studies are done about where hockey fans live in Phoenix. Even if every hockey fan in Arizona lived in the Scottsdale/Tempe/Phoenix triangle, you'd still have the same issues drawing people to the arena you have now - just in a different place. "Hockey fan" /= "Coyotes fan." And the numbers and trends pre-2003 compared to 2003-2009 tend to bear that out.

When I express these opinions I get accused of sour grapes because if the team moves east I will be inconvenienced. It's a fair argument to make, even though it's not like Westgate is in my backyard (I'm about 25-35 minutes away in clear traffic on the 101). ASU is at least a 75-minute drive in non-peak traffic for me. But after 11 years I'm fine with becoming a "couch fan" - two of my kids who I used to take to games with me are now in college and they're more interested in tuition than they are in wearing their Coyotes jerseys. If I thought the franchise's woes would be solved by a move "back home" then I'd be enthusiastically proselytizing about it.

For years during the bankruptcy, we spent so much time saying, "If only we had a good owner... if only we had a good GM... if only we had a good team... if only we had a better location." For every step forward we had an excuse for why we stepped back. It's been seven years since the bankruptcy, so sadly I can say that as I've aged over this whole nightmare scenario, I've realized that there will always be some excuse. If the Coyotes build a new arena somewhere, they'll have a year or two or three of strong attendance and then, if the team doesn't compete, it will start to diminish again. Then the team will once again be at the mercy of whatever lease agreement they've signed - whether it's with a native tribe, ASU, the Suns, or a combination of those. That's if IceArizona's collective bank accounts can hold on long enough for the new arena to be built.

There's not a lot of patience for this point of view from people out east who are awash in anticipation and hope. I don't blame them. I just can't join them.

 

[kihekah19*]

I disagree with you guys. I think Scottsdale-Tempe-Phoenix triangle would be ideal, especially Scottsdale.

That (to me) just shows that you not only must not live here, but that you don't understand folks here and the type of fans they are - not in the least.

@ TFP

I live in the N central corridor and it matters not (to me personally) based on time and distance, where they play.
I think (in reading you) that we both may agree that it matters not where they call home once the "new" wears off, if victory is not overwhelmingly consistent.
Time is the only cure for the ills of this beleaguered franchise, time for the youth to learn about and embrace a fairly consistent winner and most importantly - that can happen in Glendale, which is the only logical home at this juncture.
My creedo for nearly countless years now: this valley is full of fair weather, bandwagon jumping, root for the teams from the cities they used to live in, nutless excuses for hockey fans; has summed it all up for all of those years.

 

[Fugu]

That (to me) just shows that you not only must not live here, but that you don't understand folks here and the type of fans they are - not in the least.

I actually have lived there, and had to do some driving between Tempe and Glendale frequently. My favorite time to drive was when there were a couple of drops of rain falling...

Edit: Mind you, I didn't form this opinion just out of thin air, but after reading nonstop threads and posts about the market from about 2007 and 2008 and on.

 

[kihekah19*]

I actually have lived there, and had to do some driving between Tempe and Glendale frequently. My favorite time to drive was when there were a couple of drops of rain falling...

Edit: Mind you, I didn't form this opinion just out of thin air, but after reading nonstop threads and posts about the market from about 2007 and 2008 and on.

And what NHL team did you root for during your time here?

 

[Fugu]

And what NHL team did you root for during your time here?

I was in a phase where I didn't follow the NHL. A break, of sorts.


Prior to that break, I was a Hawks fan. Grew up in Chicagoland. After my break from the NHL, I became a Wings fan as we'd settled in Michigan. The Yotes were not yet in the Valley.

 

[kihekah19*]

I was in a phase where I didn't follow the NHL. A break, of sorts.


Prior to that break, I was a Hawks fan. Grew up in Chicagoland. After my break from the NHL, I became a Wings fan as we'd settled in Michigan. The Yotes were not yet in the Valley.

Having lived here in the early 80's when there was only Suns basketball and being a sth, I can tell you it was the same back then. Perhaps you're not as observant, or had less opportunity to observe, but it wasn't until I returned in 2001 that I saw more exclusive support for the Suns.
Born and raised in Aurora Il. myself

 

[Killion]

And what NHL team did you root for during your time here?

And you kihekah, were you born & raised in Arizona or are you a transplant who upon moving to the Valley threw off all prior city/team allegiances and loyalties?.... Because if the latter, that would make you an extremely unusual individual... part of a decidedly small, very small minority indeed. Loyalties are formed during our formative years on this planet and not easily dispelled. For a great many, a bond that is unbreakable, a touchstone to peoples past lives. And yet you, you advocate, nay, DEMAND that these "nutless hockey fans" just cash in those blue chips for some Timbits and a replica Yotes jersey, believe in these dime store messiah jokesters of an "ownership" group at GRA huh?

 

[Fugu]

And you kihekah, were you born & raised in Arizona or are you a transplant who upon moving to the Valley threw off all prior city/team allegiances and loyalties?.... Because if the latter, that would make you an extremely unusual individual... part of a decidedly small, very small minority indeed. Loyalties are formed during our formative years on this planet and not easily dispelled.

Yes, but he may be suffering the same Wirtzian effect that drove me off as a fan. I got intrigued by the Wings when they started playing all those ex-Soviets and Scotty came in, borrowing freely from the old Soviet puck possession system. (And, yes, kihekah appears to be minted the same time I was...lirl)

If Seattle were to get a team, I could see following them, make them my new home team. I think I'd really enjoy being around from the inception. Will always love and watch my Wings, but I accept that I'm 2500 mi away now, and that's not likely to change.

 

[kihekah19*]

And you kihekah, were you born & raised in Arizona or are you a transplant who upon moving to the Valley threw off all prior city/team allegiances and loyalties?.... Because if the latter, that would make you an extremely unusual individual... part of a decidedly small, very small minority indeed. Loyalties are formed during our formative years on this planet and not easily dispelled.

We've covered this before, but yes that is me and I refuse to acknowledge any thinking that does not embrace the community one lives in. Cut the silly sentimental heart strings and embrace the new digs.
I have been a fan of three NHL teams and I lived an entire state away for one of them.
I do however recognize that most folks cants seem to shake their feelings, despite what I charecterize as a complete lack of charecter and economic sense and that is why I posted previously, that time
Will kill the franchises ills.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

There is a huge groundswell of young hockey players here, as has been noted. The market will catch up with the Coyotes over the next generation (yea save the snark about if they survive). Hockey costs money. The upcoming hockey fans will be almost exclusively from upper middle class and above families. With all due respect to the fine folks of the West Valley, the money is in Scottsdale, Fountain Hills, Paradise Valley and parts of Mesa and Gilbert. So I agree with Fugu. Location is that important.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

And you kihekah, were you born & raised in Arizona or are you a transplant who upon moving to the Valley threw off all prior city/team allegiances and loyalties?.... Because if the latter, that would make you an extremely unusual individual... part of a decidedly small, very small minority indeed. Loyalties are formed during our formative years on this planet and not easily dispelled. For a great many, a bond that is unbreakable, a touchstone to peoples past lives. And yet you, you advocate, nay, DEMAND that these "nutless hockey fans" just cash in those blue chips for some Timbits and a replica Yotes jersey, believe in these dime store messiah jokesters of an "ownership" group at GRA huh?

I like your avatar. Here's looking' at you, Kil.

 

[kihekah19*]

Yes, but he may be suffering the same Wirtzian effect that drove me off as a fan.

Haha - not a chance was a Hawk fan even after I originally left (Az had no NHL). Became a Star fan after my personal NHL dream fell through and started punching cattle in the central plains.
Actually moved back here (could have gone anywhere) in no small part because of the Coyotes.

 

[Fugu]

Haha - not a chance was a Hawk even after I originally left (Az had no NHL). Became a Star fan after my personal NHL dream fell through and started punching cattle in the central plains.

When he took the Hawks off of WGN, and moved to cable (we didn't have cable available in our area yet), I literally sat on my front porch and cried for like 2 days. All the other kids kept asking my brother what was wrong with me, and he had to explain the situation. I never missed a game, subscribed to every known hockey magazine under the sun, and knew every single player in the league, stats, birthplace, etc. My Canadian geographical knowledge was elite, as a result, and I could sing the Canadian national anthem-- in French.

 

[kihekah19*]

And you kihekah, were you born & raised in Arizona or are you a transplant who upon moving to the Valley threw off all prior city/team allegiances and loyalties?.... Because if the latter, that would make you an extremely unusual individual... part of a decidedly small, very small minority indeed. Loyalties are formed during our formative years on this planet and not easily dispelled. For a great many, a bond that is unbreakable, a touchstone to peoples past lives. And yet you, you advocate, nay, DEMAND that these "nutless hockey fans" just cash in those blue chips for some Timbits and a replica Yotes jersey, believe in these dime store messiah jokesters of an "ownership" group at GRA huh?

I see you've edited and added.
I don't for the life of me understand what is apparently so hard to comprehend about the idea that : THE GAME IS WHAT MATTERS, not the ownership, or the much maligned NHL.
I don't think that I nor anyone else for that matter should worry about anything else to any degree that would change our love of the game itself.

 

[BattleBorn]

... Born and raised in Aurora Il. myself

Hey, another desert dweller from the City of Lights.

 

[kihekah19*]

Hey, another desert dweller from the City of Lights.

It's a good place to be FROM!

Seriously, I still like it there and could even live there.... The wife feels otherwise.

 

[mouser]

Why? He broke the story about the JB-Moyes deal and had Bettman attacking the media for making stuff up.


Don't shoot the messenger, kihekah.

Heh, I was eating lunch at a restaurant right outside the bankruptcy court where the NHL legal team of 8-10 people was eating. Shoalts at another nearby table by himself.

As the NHL team was getting up to head back to court Shoalts walked over to engage Bettman. If you didn't know what was going on you might have thought it was two friends bumping into each other having a chat. Entirely diplomatic on both sides and Bettman actually looked happy talking to Shoalts.

 

[TheLegend]

i appreciate your need to continually wear rose coloured glasses, but that's about as cold water as it gets, "ASU spokesman Mark Johnson said there are no developments concerning a joint ASU-Coyotes hockey arena." no developments = no arena within the required, urgent time frame.

im not sure how you or anyone can possibly put a positive spin on anything coming out of ASU, other than the wishful statements being made by the Athletic Director, whom CF has aptly argued has no actual decision-making authority.

in other words, there must be "developments" right now, not tomorrow, not a year from now. now.

Again... the statement can mean a lot of things. If you want to wear the relocation colored glasses then the statement means just that for you.

No developments = nothing to announce either way.

Just as most of LeBlanc's statement mean nothing at the moment other than they've been talking about it.

 

[TheLegend]

Why? He broke the story about the JB-Moyes deal and had Bettman attacking the media for making stuff up.


Don't shoot the messenger, kihekah.

We all knew Shoalts had an inside source in Richard Rodier. Who was more than willing to share whatever "details" needed to poison the market. So yes.... he was pretty accurate because of his source.

And with a more indirect approach, "Uncle" Phil Lieberman. A Glendale city councilman who became the darling of Toronto radio for a while "But it's a beautiful arena!!!!".

Other than that.... Shoalts was always tossing darts at a board.

 

[Coyotes2000]

Phoenix Mayor Greg Stanton says new downtown arena high on priority list

http://ktar.com/story/911389/phoeni...ays-new-downtown-arena-high-on-priority-list/

 

[Mightygoose]

Good to hear he says they won't be an afterthought in shared building though.

Stanton added that eventually any plans for a new Phoenix arena would have to be approved by voters.

“I think it will be an intense debate here in Phoenix for the next few years,” he said

That doesn't seem in coincide with LeBlanc's end of the regular season timeline. Let's see what the next 7 1/2 weeks brings us.

 

[WaveRaven]

Phoenix Mayor Greg Stanton says new downtown arena high on priority list

http://ktar.com/story/911389/phoeni...ays-new-downtown-arena-high-on-priority-list/

I can fathom how this would be a solution. They have been gifted an arena now, were paid a huge subsidy, plus recieved all revunes and lost bucket loads of cash.

The ONLY way this works is if they are owned by the suns, no way can the clowns make a go of it with less arena revenue and no subsidy.

 

[kihekah19*]

Shoalts was always tossing darts at a board.

While blindfolded, I might add.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

And you kihekah, were you born & raised in Arizona or are you a transplant who upon moving to the Valley threw off all prior city/team allegiances and loyalties?.... Because if the latter, that would make you an extremely unusual individual... part of a decidedly small, very small minority indeed.

For my part, I was born and raised in Indiana and then spent a few years in Boston. My loyalties, therefore, were not originally with Arizona teams. I guess my personal philosophy is that wherever you choose to live long-term, that's your home. So while I retain my rooting interest in the Bruins, Red Sox, and Patriots, I'll cheer first for the Coyotes, Diamondbacks, and Cardinals - and if it comes down to a head-to-head between my favorites, I'll side with the home team first.

The ONLY way this works is if they are owned by the suns, no way can the clowns make a go of it with less arena revenue and no subsidy.

Having witnessed how the Suns have been run over the past couple of years, I can say without fear of contradiction that the Coyotes are better off with IceArizona.

 

[Llama19]

Good to hear he says they won't be an afterthought in shared building though.

Stanton added that eventually any plans for a new Phoenix arena would have to be approved by voters.

“I think it will be an intense debate here in Phoenix for the next few years,” he said

That doesn't seem in coincide with LeBlanc's end of the regular season timeline. Let's see what the next 7 1/2 weeks brings us.

High on the Mayor's priority list?

The debate will take a few years, and not a few fortnights, as LeBluster(tm) keeps blustering...

No wonder the temperature is rising, it's from all this blustering hot air, both from LeBluster(tm) and now the Mayor...