Killion
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If they had the money.... and if it was 1996... I'd agree. Why they messed around with the AWA & Glendale..... all couldve been avoided.
Phoenix CIX: C IX Run, Run IX Run
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If they had the money.... and if it was 1996... I'd agree. Why they messed around with the AWA & Glendale..... all couldve been avoided.
GuelphStormer
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not that he would ever admit it, but i really do wonder what bettman's single biggest regret is in all of this. i'd think it may either be a) fighting balsillie in the original BK sale, when now in hindsight, every party would have been much better off or b) presuming glendale was weak with no options and arrogantly taking them for granted.
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JimAnchower
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- Dec 8, 2012
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Good article from the WSJ about bond ratings and the legal question of paying for stadiums through tourism taxes. There is a battle going in Arizona between rental car companies and the stadium board about using rental car taxes to pay for stadiums and not their original intention of roads. For Glendale, this applies more towards Camelback Ranch than Gila River Arena or University of Phoenix Stadium. If the rental car companies are ultimately successful Glendale will be on the hook for the costs of constructing Camelback Ranch.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/while-arizona-cardinals-soar-legal-battle-puts-stadium-investors-in-red-zone-1445679183
http://www.wsj.com/articles/while-arizona-cardinals-soar-legal-battle-puts-stadium-investors-in-red-zone-1445679183
JimAnchower
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Joyce Clark has uploaded the city's review of hosting the Super Bowl. City lost about $600K. Looks like a lot more money was pent in Scottsdale and downtown Phoenix, which would be expected. And, for completeness, a link to her blog post on the matter.
PDF of report
Blog post
PDF of report
Blog post
If Copps would supposedly cost $300 million to bring upto modern standards and its 30 years old and is set up to seat 17k+ for hockey I can't imagine what Vets would cost since its 30 years old and is set up for 13,700 for hockey.
Killion
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Actually 50yrs old, opening in 1965.... I thought Copps (now First Ontario) was ballparked at around $180M by Balsillie back in 2008/2009 no?... But yes, thats a good baseline, comparison. I have no idea what it might cost to bring War Vets into the 21st Century and absolutely, it could well be cost prohibitive. Seating capacity at 13,000+ isnt a problem, its a bonus. More exclusive, more intimate, charge higher prices. Its worth looking into if Im LeBlanc & actually mean it when I say "we plan on staying in Arizona".
- Oct 26, 2006
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If IceArizona is as cash-poor as everyone here says they are, then the idea of trying to upgrade VMC into a new home for the Coyotes is as ludicrous as Anthony Leblanc saying something truthful to the press. The building is in no shape to be a permanent home for a professional sports team right now.
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Killion
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Oh? They had a Suns Scrimmage there earlier this month; Home & Garden Show; Gun Show. Right now the Fall Fair.... Im just "puttin it out there" as an option... but if its beyond rehabilitation & renovations, totally not doable so be it... of course, thats EVEN IF IceArizona had the money and the league was cool with it. Thing is TFP, if LeBlanc's serious about staying in-state but getting out of Glendale, had the money, then that facility, Id be commissioning structural engineers, architects & designers, seriously checking it out to see if it is feasible financially, and ya, Im also aware its not in the nicest of areas. But hey, if it'd suffice for a few years and no other real option, absolutely adamant that team stays in Arizona? That or nothing, gone? Ive got the money & willing to spend it on a complete reno then why not?
kihekah19*
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I would be extatic if they could pull that off. Especially if they could keep it kinda retro, what a great old barn!
Killion
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Oh yeah. Gimme some a that Olde Tyme Hockey kihekah. I always felt that thats where the Jets shouldve landed in Phoenix rather than the ill suited AWA, one-sided lease with Colangelo. Pour the foundations for the fans at War Vets, fix it up, eventually build out in Scottsdale or.... stayed put. Provided you could get enough suites in there, add some seating, not a lot really, then that to me in many respects far superior to these architecturally brutalist & butt fugly concrete bunkers; plastic, soulless. All the same cookie cutter type dealeo's though mind you some, quite spectacular outside & in. You dont need 17,000+++ seaters. 14,000-16,000 just fine. Economy of scale. Much more intimate. Exclusive.
- Oct 26, 2006
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If an angel investor came in to help fix up VMC then I'd be all for the Coyotes moving there. I spent many nights there watching the Suns back in the day and I've always had a soft spot for it - and though I never got to see the Roadrunners play there at least there's some history with them and the Mustangs.
It'd certainly be better than shoehorning into a Suns' facility. Just look at what's happening with the Islanders in Brooklyn. New state of the art arena in the middle of a lot of sports fans, but still failing to draw and suffering from all sorts of "compromise" ills at the new barn. Count on that being repeated in Talking Stick or in a theoretical new barn in Scottsdale.
But my first hope is that they work something out with Glendale because, location aside, GRA is one of the best hockey barns in the sport. Simply a fantastic arena, no matter how ugly on the outside.
Killion
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Yes, my thoughts exactly.... and while the history of the building not all that long, its certainly very colorful. The old WHA Roadrunners with the popular Coach Sandy Hucul who had also played for the WHL Roadrunners in the 60's along with Walt McKechnie, Pete Goegan & others; Coach of the WHL Phoenix Roadrunners the legendary Alf Pike, aka The Embalmer, was actually a Mortician off-season.... from the WHA years, Robbie Mr. Sweater Ftorek the last (NHL) active player (84) from their roster. Guys like Cowboy Howie Young (great friend to Frank Sinatra, great player but for the boozing & wild lifestyle), Gary Kurt, Clay Hebenton, Gerry Odrowski, Mike Sleep, the Sobchuk brothers... So yes, history. An anchor. Something to be proud of. Stories to tell your children. The most powerful marketing tool bar none. Yet no. The league, none of the Coyotes owners ever got it. Colangelo was up to his eyeballs in debt, new building open, likely gets a call from his ol' NBA Buddy Gary Bettman, could use a paying tenant with 41 home dates big time & he milked newbies Burke & Gluckstern like there was no tomorrow. Never had a chance for Gods sake. And now would you just look at this mess? All coulda been avoided had they simply moved into War Vets.
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JimAnchower
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I would agree that a lower capacity arena can be better. It lowers the supply of available tickets, which means you can now charge more. I've always found it strange to demand that a new arena seat 18K and up when the demand for that many seats may not be there. The biggest problem with a venue that size is that the seats you sell for the lowest price are amongst the most expensive to build, with all the extra costs in concrete, bricks, steel, etc required to build the last few rows of the arena. If you aren't going to consistently sell those seats, you don't need them. However, I would imagine the NHL would want a minimum of 15K seats for any new arena.
For AVMC, you are going to need a lot more luxury boxes, club seats, new scoreboards, new places for advertising, potentially new seats everywhere, and that's just in the arena bowl. Outside, you will need multiple restaurants and bars, places for those in luxury boxes and club seats to congregate, wider concourses, a team shop, modern locker rooms, etc. Without all this, the team would be losing a lot in revenue to other teams. It sucks, but these new venues aren't build for those with memories of the great arenas of old, they are build to make truckloads of money. At this point, the footprint of the new venue is a lot bigger than the current footprint and it may better to just take down the existing venue and build a new one. A new arena is around $450-500M.
Glacial
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- Jan 8, 2013
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Yeah. As it looks now, there is no feasible Arizona option if they want or get pushed out of Glendale. My question about the Vet is what is the minimum investment needed to get a sheet of ice and hockey configuration in on it? I'm not talking with due diligence, everything to NHL's best specs, I'm talking fast & loose, fly-by-night, LeBlancian, just trying to meet the bare minimum criteria required by the NHL. Of course, the biggest variable with the Vet is who owns it and how receptive would they be to the Coyotes? And how receptive are Glendale's arena manager candidates to the Coyotes staying and taking up all those dates, especially given their past management record and their relationship with the city council?
Then again, maybe LeBlanc is being honest when he says the Coyotes will stay in Arizona... it just depends on which Arizona people have in mind
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona,_Manitoba
I meant to type 50.
Yeah in 08/09 it was estimated to cost $180 million to fix up Copps, but now they are saying $300 million. I don't get why the costs would be 60% higher only 6 years later but thats what it said in the report about the feasibility study Hamilton is doing.
At the very least after the 2010-2011 season when the first $25 million was paid by Glendale he should have let them go to Winnipeg and then sent the Thrashers to QC or Hamilton where Gaglardi was ready to take them.
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
The car rental companies already have won. A court has already ruled the tax was unconstitutional. The AZ constitution clearly states taxes collected from transportation sources must be used for transportation projects. I believe the AZSTA is appealing it but they aren't going to win.
Glendale was to get roughly 70% of their construction costs for CBack Ranch covered by the AZSTA (via the tax money). Payments were to begin in 2017, but now they may never get it (nor will Goodyear for their spring training park)
Only $600k?? Glendale reportedly lost $2M from the previous Super Bowl. Joyce was speculating a while back the city would lose even more this time around. So call it an improvement.
Scottsdale got the big money events because vast majority of high end resorts are located there. Phoenix ended up with NFL-EX and other events because the Bidwill family has very strong connections with downtown interests.
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
Yeah. As it looks now, there is no feasible Arizona option if they want or get pushed out of Glendale. My question about the Vet is what is the minimum investment needed to get a sheet of ice and hockey configuration in on it? I'm not talking with due diligence, everything to NHL's best specs, I'm talking fast & loose, fly-by-night, LeBlancian, just trying to meet the bare minimum criteria required by the NHL. Of course, the biggest variable with the Vet is who owns it and how receptive would they be to the Coyotes? And how receptive are Glendale's arena manager candidates to the Coyotes staying and taking up all those dates, especially given their past management record and their relationship with the city council?
Then again, maybe LeBlanc is being honest when he says the Coyotes will stay in Arizona... it just depends on which Arizona people have in mind
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona,_Manitoba
Oh that's dirty pool old man!!
Was watching the ARIvOTT game tonight on Center Ice and was surprised to hear the Ottawa commentators begin talking about the situation in Arizona. They were quite positive about the Yotes remaining in Arizona, either out in Scottsdale or downtown. But not for much longer in Glendale, which they said was the "wrong location".
The car rental companies already have won. A court has already ruled the tax was unconstitutional. The AZ constitution clearly states taxes collected from transportation sources must be used for transportation projects. I believe the AZSTA is appealing it but they aren't going to win.
Glendale was to get roughly 70% of their construction costs for CBack Ranch covered by the AZSTA (via the tax money). Payments were to begin in 2017, but now they may never get it (nor will Goodyear for their spring training park)
Only $600k?? Glendale reportedly lost $2M from the previous Super Bowl. Joyce was speculating a while back the city would lose even more this time around. So call it an improvement.
Scottsdale got the big money events because vast majority of high end resorts are located there. Phoenix ended up with NFL-EX and other events because the Bidwill family has very strong connections with downtown interests.
On the one hand Bidwells and on the other the Coyotes ownership clown car. Glendale really had deal with some terrible team owners.
Tom ServoMST3K
In search of a Steinbach Hero
Glacial
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Oh that's dirty pool old man!!
Was watching the ARIvOTT game tonight on Center Ice and was surprised to hear the Ottawa commentators begin talking about the situation in Arizona. They were quite positive about the Yotes remaining in Arizona, either out in Scottsdale or downtown. But not for much longer in Glendale, which they said was the "wrong location".
Yeah, the Coyotes are nothing if not persistent and logic-defying. Their odds now look to be favoring relocation in the 1-2 year window but that could easily change, as has happened so many times before, like getting a reasonable deal with the Suns, actually choosing to stay in Glendale, or refitting the Vet to minimum specs. A piece of news on those fronts would have to change the course of the saga though. One lingering mystery on that front seems to be the issue of how much of the team credit line have the Coyotes used already and how close are they to their limit? If they max it out, does the NHL start using a league credit line to continue supporting them (essentially taking over part of team finances/logistics)? That feels like a fairly substantial piece of the puzzle which would be fairly influential in how fast or slow the Coyotes relocate (of course, as I've stated, even if they go from Glendale to someplace out of Arizona, the question is where? Nowhere seems quite apparent and if the timeline is rapid, something has to be happening elsewhere to get the groundwork laid for an incoming Coyotes franchise).
And this was the other big overlooked factor I kept in mind and wondered about. From what I heard in earlier megathread threads, as much focus as the Coyotes' arena gets (understandable since it's a hockey forum), Camelback Ranch had a bigger debt burden than Gila River Arena, but it rarely came up because it's a spring training ballpark and by virtue of that, is mostly off the radar to hockey forums and even baseball forums since it's not Dodger Stadium or US Cellular Field. If Glendale was going to cover 70% of the debt with the rental car tax and they lost that, isn't that going to impact the city more than Gila River Arena costs? What is supposed to be the yearly debt service payment on Camelback Ranch from Glendale and how much does it compare to their subsidizing of the Coyotes?
powerstuck
Nordiques Hopes Lies
Of course, but then the financial crisis happened and the parking value never really recovered.
Llama19
Registered User
Not to throw this thread off-track, from the (February 19, 2014) article, Camelback Ranch-Glendale will cost city more than $350 million over next 26 years
To quote:
"Originally estimated to cost $76 million to build when the project was announced in 2007, the city eventually spent close to $152 million on the project. They took out subordinate bonds to build the stadium and after restructuring $200 million in debt in the last year, the city will now be on the hook for payments of $354,413,511.11 over the next 26 years to pay off the project."
Source: http://www.glendalestar.com/news/article_8ff32f8c-999c-11e3-a1b2-0019bb2963f4.html
Bonds, bonds, bonds, please buy our Glendale bonds...
- Oct 26, 2006
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Not to throw this thread off-track, from the (February 19, 2014) article, Camelback Ranch-Glendale will cost city more than $350 million over next 26 years
To quote:
"Originally estimated to cost $76 million to build when the project was announced in 2007, the city eventually spent close to $152 million on the project. They took out subordinate bonds to build the stadium and after restructuring $200 million in debt in the last year, the city will now be on the hook for payments of $354,413,511.11 over the next 26 years to pay off the project."
Source: http://www.glendalestar.com/news/article_8ff32f8c-999c-11e3-a1b2-0019bb2963f4.html
Bonds, bonds, bonds, please buy our Glendale bonds...
I wonder if there's an MLB forum out there giving it to Glendale over this Camelback Ranch boondoggle. Kinda makes the hockey team seem like a drop in the bucket.
Glacial
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- Jan 8, 2013
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I don't think so. As I noted, spring training ballparks are off the radar, even the radar of the teams that are there's fanbases. The biggest one might hear is if a team goes from Florida to Arizona or vice versa. The regular season stadiums get all the attention.
Not to throw this thread off-track, from the (February 19, 2014) article, Camelback Ranch-Glendale will cost city more than $350 million over next 26 years
To quote:
"Originally estimated to cost $76 million to build when the project was announced in 2007, the city eventually spent close to $152 million on the project. They took out subordinate bonds to build the stadium and after restructuring $200 million in debt in the last year, the city will now be on the hook for payments of $354,413,511.11 over the next 26 years to pay off the project."
Source: http://www.glendalestar.com/news/article_8ff32f8c-999c-11e3-a1b2-0019bb2963f4.html
Bonds, bonds, bonds, please buy our Glendale bonds...
$354.4M over 26 years averages to $13.6 million per year, about comparable to the old Ice Arizona subsidy. Glendale hasn't met a hole it hasn't liked.
"The name is Bond, Glendale Bond".
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