Major4Boarding
Unfamiliar Moderator
Take a gander at posts #170 and #171 here---> http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1912091&page=7
Phoenix CIII: Sue Me, Sue You Blues
- Thread starter kdb209
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Take a gander at posts #170 and #171 here---> http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1912091&page=7
Killion
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2010
- 36,763
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Notice:
... and then carry on any Relocation Discussion IN THAT THREAD PLEASE be it to Talking Stick or Taipei.
... and then carry on any Relocation Discussion IN THAT THREAD PLEASE be it to Talking Stick or Taipei.
Major4Boarding
Unfamiliar Moderator
SunDancer
Registered User
Oh, one of the many gems in the Coyotes Saga! At the peak of their hatred Bettman and Balsillie happened to run into each other in the men's room in the courthouse during the bankruptcy proceedings and actually shook hands. Not sure if there was a p'ssing match but IIRC Bettman actually went on to emphasize that they only shook hands after washing hands ... No word as to which hands did what shaking before or after the washing.
Sorry, is this OT?
GF
Registered User
- Nov 4, 2012
- 547
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The elephant in the room says the Coyotes are failing because not enough fans are willing to pay NHL prices for hockey in Arizona.
If enough people did, we would not be 103 threads deep in Coyotes problems. Coyotes fans points finger to the owners and arena location and even to the CoG.
Hockey is pretty much a curiosity/novelty in Arizona and just not enough people care. I remember the tv ratings a couple years back and it was terrible to say the least. So even when on TV people doesn't care about hockey, it's not like they need to drive all the way to their living room are they?
If enough people would show up to games and willing to pay actual NHL prices for their tickets, there would be good/serious owners making sound decisions and enjoying profits. But because the revenues are just not there, the only potential owners are crooks/carpetbaggers trying to get everybody and their mother to foot the bill. That's the problem with untested markets. Sometimes you get it right, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you get it way wrong.
Time to pull the plug. As sad as it may be for the few real hokey fans in Arizona, there's just not enough of you.
If enough people did, we would not be 103 threads deep in Coyotes problems. Coyotes fans points finger to the owners and arena location and even to the CoG.
Hockey is pretty much a curiosity/novelty in Arizona and just not enough people care. I remember the tv ratings a couple years back and it was terrible to say the least. So even when on TV people doesn't care about hockey, it's not like they need to drive all the way to their living room are they?
If enough people would show up to games and willing to pay actual NHL prices for their tickets, there would be good/serious owners making sound decisions and enjoying profits. But because the revenues are just not there, the only potential owners are crooks/carpetbaggers trying to get everybody and their mother to foot the bill. That's the problem with untested markets. Sometimes you get it right, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you get it way wrong.
Time to pull the plug. As sad as it may be for the few real hokey fans in Arizona, there's just not enough of you.
At least Taipei would help with conference balance by giving us another western team!
OthmarAmmann
Omnishambles
Pacific Division. Killion may have hit on something here - Bettman going to Taipei as a jumping off point to expansion into mainland China and getting those huge TV contracts! Anything to avoid expanding in northern North America.
Foster81
Registered User
Who says the city of Phoenix wouldn't put there money where there mouth is and agree to subsidize the team? Just till they can get back on there feet financially. If the mayor of Phoenix wants to keep the team maybe a city as large Phoenix can better afford the $15 million dollar AMF. Maybe the league should offer more revenue sharing money till the franchise is self sufficient.
JimAnchower
Registered User
- Dec 8, 2012
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Why would some of the other owners voluntarily give up money? It isn't a charity.
EDITED TO ADD
The teams that already contribute to revenue sharing are going to decline because, in their minds, they already give enough. The teams that receive revenue sharing are going to decline because they need what they get to compete and don't want to give it up. While Bettman works for the owners, he also has a certain amount of power that can get things done that he feels are important. Asking other owners to help out one team that has consistently had problems would be a bridge too far for Gary. It's one thing if he gets them on board to buy the team, but he could have sold that as they'll get their money back and wouldn't lose any money. But with this, they would rightly ask "Well, what are we going to get for this?"
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Can the Suns line up for their $15 million handout too?
The franchise has bled money since day 1. It has been 20 years. When might it become self-sufficient?
If the team had a very deep pocketed local owner who didn't care if his toy lost $30 million a year things would probably look good for the franchise.
Tony needed to be off and running since day one. He stumbled and bumbled his way to this point in time. Didn't have a work visa, miss judged the length of the runway and 3 majority ownership changes in 2 years. The current stewards of the franchise really nothing more that clowns on Li'll Gary's puppet strings.
The franchise is already getting revenue sharing and bags of cash from L'ill Gary's slush fund.
madhi19
Just the tip!
Emphatic NO. If a franchise can break even overall without taxpayer subsidies, let it stay. If it can't survive without sucking enough money out of a city to downgrade the city's credit rating, the city council has a fudiciary duty to exit the arrangement by all legal means. See https://www.moodys.com/credit-ratings/Glendale-City-of-AZ-credit-rating-600023953 The actual reports are paywalled, but the one-line summaries are telling...
- 08 Jul 2013; Sector Comment; Vote by Glendale, Arizona to Support Professional Hockey Is Credit Negative
- 15 Jun 2015; Sector Comment; Glendale, Arizona, Votes to Put Its Subsidy to Pro Hockey Team on Ice, a Credit Positive
- Financially supporting the Coyotes means that it costs COG more to sell the same amount of municipal bonds.
- Withdrawing COG financial support for the Coyotes reverses that effect, and brings down the interest rate that Glendale has to offer in order to attract bond buyers.
The Coyotes are among the worst, if not the worst, in NHL team net income. A big loss, even after a sweetheart $15 million AMF that no other team gets. Florida, may show worse attendance, but...
- the owner has stopped papering the place, and slapping full-price season ticket holders in the face by giving away a bunch freebie or near-freebie tickets. I'd be interested to see what the Coyotes' attendance would look like if it adopted the same painfully honest reporting policy as Florida.
- The Florida operation is a lot better off than Arizona, but only because of non-hockey event bookings. Actually, Jobing.com/Gila_River_Arena used to do a lot better than now, but non-hockey event bookings have cratered since the NHL took over. See http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=78074045&postcount=616
- 2008: #59 Jobing.com Arena Glendale, AZ 200,377
- 2009: #58 Jobing.com Arena Glendale, AZ 208,877
- 2010: #80 Jobing.com Arena Glendale, AZ 150,661
- 2011: #177 Jobing.com Arena Glendale, AZ 52,628
- 2012: #166 Jobing.com Arena Glendale, AZ 68,550
- 2013 (To end of September, 2013): #158 Jobbing.Com Arena Glendale, AZ 47,427
- 2008:#86 US Airways Center Phoenix, AZ 135,960
- 2009:#100+ US Airways Center Phoenix, AZ <136,077 (not in Top 100 list)
- 2010:#95 US Airways Center Phoenix, AZ 125,438
- 2011:#47 US Airways Center Phoenix, AZ 288,214
- 2012: #38 US Airways Center Phoenix, AZ 334,194
- 2013 (To end of September, 2013): #49 US Airways Center Phoeniz, AZ 194,617
The worst in net income. How about attendance and associated average ticket prices which two variables play a major part in the formula that spells failure or success. A couple of quotes from Howlin' Hockey ( source: http://howlinhockey.com/2015/06/19/arizona-coyotes-attendance-numbers-are-not-great/ )
blah, blah, blah
So even a fan sees the Phoenix / Glendale / Arizona hockey market for what it really appears to be..... that being the two sentences in the quotes above hi-lighted in red.
While we're at it, here are the numbers for 2014 from http://www.pollstarpro.com/files/charts2014/2014YearEndWorldwideTicketSalesTop200ArenaVenues.pdf
- World rank 62 with 258,015 attendance US Airways CenterPhoenix, AZ
- World rank 148 with 76,906 attendance Gila River ArenaGlendale, AZ
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
Some people are also still suffering from the economic collapse in '05 and haven't recovered from their homes going underwater, unemployment, etc. Suddenly ..... keeping a roof over your head, kids in college or food on the table becomes a bigger priority.
I really just ticks me off when people from my own fan base continue to point fingers and judge other fans without even considering where they're coming from, or measure their fandom by the size of their wallets.
For me that's the poorest excuse of them all.
TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
We know we're doing a good job when both sides of a debate message us to let us know how biased we are, our agenda is clear, and that freedom of speech is dead!
I've worn those shoes before...... this site's much tamer than the ones I had over a decade ago, but it's still a thankless job.
Folks just don't understand sports is not everything sometimes. I'm sure the coyotes are the last thing on the mind for many people in the Valley monetary wise right now.
powerstuck
Nordiques Hopes Lies
You know, the bigger, like BIGGER question is why would anyone PAY a team to use their ASSET.
All around North America, and in 29 NHL cities, either the team OWNS the arena, or PAYS a renting fee to the owner. Only in Glendale does a team gets paid to be there.
GuelphStormer
Registered User
I agree with you. Anyone who buys even just one ticket is supporting the team. This is not on the fans, it's on the team for failing to draw more fans. Existing fans can only attend as many games and dig as deep as their own pockets allow.
That said though, I still see IA's decision not to raise prices immediately when they bought the team in 2013, right at the one unique time when they could have actually gotten away with it, as the single worse decision they made ... and it signalled to me that they were simply not serious about succeeding and/or not intellectually equipped to succeed. .... which further suggests to me that Bettman knowingly allowed a bunch of dunces to babysit while he continued guiding all the pieces of his master plan into place. Unfortunately, CoG threw a huge monkey wrench into that plan.
Llama19
Registered User
Agreed, it certainly factors in...but it is not the single worse decision, there seems to be more based on this thread...
IceAce
Strait Trippin'
this is because the team "manages" the arena (I didnt say they do it well). There are other situations where teams don't technically own the venue, yet "run it" in varying capacities and are paid by the owners to do so (just not as much as the Yotes were getting mind you).
RogerRoger
Registered User
- Jul 23, 2013
- 5,126
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I think the Panthers receive some tax revenue (maybe from hotel rooms) of some sort by the county.
That list is broken. Sherwoods Law clearly states that as soon as the anchor tenant leaves, all event activity goes to zero. So any list that has the LA Forum, Izod Center and Key Arena on it is therefore inaccurate.
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