Phoenix CIII: Sue Me, Sue You Blues

[kihekah19*]

Since when does being an STH make a difference? I didn't realize there was an entry fee, or some exclusive club you had to join to be a fan?

I'm not looking for pity.... nor ever have. But I guess it proves elitism can be found everywhere..... including Arizona. Fits in with previous postings from Coyotes "fans" that don't really care what happens to Glendale as long as they have their hockey.

{Mod} You know what they say about excuses. There are too many excuses here - location being the predominant one for those WITH the means to afford. Quality of product being the other.... problem being: if revenue is down, it's hard to justify spending for quality. Finally, the "fans" of this team that merely watch on tv or their computer will be able to watch them in any location, so why pity?

This is the most piss poor excuse of a community for backing hometown sports that I have ever seen and to say it's irritating is an understatement.

 

[Melrose Munch]

You know what they say about excuses. There are too many excuses here - location being the predominant one for those WITH the means to afford. Quality of product being the other.... problem being: if revenue is down, it's hard to justify spending for quality. Finally, the "fans" of this team that merely watch on tv or their computer will be able to watch them in any location, so why pity?

This is the most piss poor excuse of a community for backing hometown sports that I have ever seen and to say it's irritating is an understatement.

Ouch. People probably don't want to go out to the west valley on a weeknight, that does not mean they are bad fans imo. The team should be at Talking Stick to avoid this.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

So we're expecting some real news (i.e. IA's response) on monday right?

EDIT: I still love our pointless bickering, though, don't get me wrong.

 

[kihekah19*]

Defending the taxpayer in a business forum is a bit different than liking the Coyotes and therefore defending them remaining in Glendale, for no real business/financial reasoning other than 'I like the team, I live here.'

Well, that's in no small part what is so amusing about this entire thread. So many here "seem" so very concerned for a community they really know absolutely nothing about.

Business forums? Glendale business, or NHL business? The business of making the league/game stronger? The business of making poor little ol' Glendale stronger?

The business of HOCKEY and the NHL is stronger than ever. Business needs to move forward, to grow and expand, the NHL is doing that for the league and the game as a whole. Take a good look in the mirror and ask yourselves why you object to a market in crisis that hosts a team in turmoil? A team that could possibly be THE very reason for a player like Austin Mathews:

“My uncle (Billy, who has since passed away) had season-tickets to the Coyotes and me and my dad would go to games sometimes,†says Matthews, who is just two days too young for the 2015 draft. “I enjoyed watching it and asked my parents if I could play and I started playing when I was five-years-old. I just kept at it from there.â€

Of note: Mathew's mother was born in Mexico.

What does the mirror tell you? Is it a love Glendale? Is it an inability to see a larger picture? Is it fear? Is it jealousy? Hatred? Something as simple as the ignorant notion that hockey belongs in locations where ice can freeze naturally?

NOTE TO OP: This is not directed at you per se, but a response that fit your post and the thread as a whole.

 

[kihekah19*]

Ouch. People probably don't want to go out to the west valley on a weeknight, that does not mean they are bad fans imo. The team should be at talking stick to avoid this.

I Doan know if you're from Chicago or not Melrose (avitar based guess), but I am from one of it's far SW suburbs and have traveled further and in worse traffic than the any east valley resident would have to. Thousands of actual FANS do likewise.

When I lived in the central plains, I drove five hours to Star's games, although not an sth - point being, if you love the game and want to support, you find a way.

 

[Fugu]

Well, that's in no small part what is so amusing about this entire thread. So many here "seem" so very concerned for a community they really know absolutely nothing about.

Business forums? Glendale business, or NHL business? The business of making the league/game stronger? The business of making poor little ol' Glendale stronger?

The business of HOCKEY and the NHL is stronger than ever. Business needs to move forward, to grow and expand, the NHL is doing that for the league and the game as a whole. Take a good look in the mirror and ask yourselves why you object to a market in crisis that hosts a team in turmoil? A team that could possibly be THE very reason for a player like Austin Mathews:

“My uncle (Billy, who has since passed away) had season-tickets to the Coyotes and me and my dad would go to games sometimes,†says Matthews, who is just two days too young for the 2015 draft. “I enjoyed watching it and asked my parents if I could play and I started playing when I was five-years-old. I just kept at it from there.â€

Of note: Mathew's mother was born in Mexico.

What does the mirror tell you? Is it a love Glendale? Is it an inability to see a larger picture? Is it fear? Is it jealousy? Hatred? Something as simple as the ignorant notion that hockey belongs in locations where ice can freeze naturally?

NOTE TO OP: This is not directed at you per se, but a response that fit your post and the thread as a whole.

The NHL may or may not be stronger than ever, but that doesn't mean there aren't financial and possibly market problems. At the moment, the worst off seem to be Arizona, Florida, and Carolina.

Have you considered that some fans like discussing the business side of the league, otherwise a forum like BOH wouldn't exist. It existed before the Coyotes problems surfaced.

While the leagues may like the idea of infinite expansion, logistically that's just not feasible or possibly even advisable. In the meantime, people who like the money side of the discussion will ponder where the best ROI can be realized, depending on both the league's objectives and their own ideas about what those objectives should be.

 

[kihekah19*]

The NHL may or may not be stronger than ever, but that doesn't mean there aren't financial and possibly market problems. At the moment, the worst off seem to be Arizona, Florida, and Carolina.

Have you considered that some fans like discussing the business side of the league, otherwise a forum like BOH wouldn't exist. It existed before the Coyotes problems surfaced.

While the leagues may like the idea of infinite expansion, logistically that's just not feasible or possibly even advisable. In the meantime, people who like the money side of the discussion will ponder where the best ROI can be realized, depending on both the league's objectives and their own ideas about what those objectives should be.

Valid points that I considered.

Threads pertaining to those ideals appear to be less popular.

 

[Fugu]

Valid points that I considered.

Threads pertaining to those ideals appear to be less popular.

You're a casual observer. I've been here since 2004, joined when the lockout was going on. You should have seen the BOH back then. It was like WWIII.

 

[Evil Doctor]

Well, that's in no small part what is so amusing about this entire thread. So many here "seem" so very concerned for a community they really know absolutely nothing about.

Business forums? Glendale business, or NHL business? The business of making the league/game stronger? The business of making poor little ol' Glendale stronger?

The business of HOCKEY and the NHL is stronger than ever. Business needs to move forward, to grow and expand, the NHL is doing that for the league and the game as a whole. Take a good look in the mirror and ask yourselves why you object to a market in crisis that hosts a team in turmoil? A team that could possibly be THE very reason for a player like Austin Mathews:

“My uncle (Billy, who has since passed away) had season-tickets to the Coyotes and me and my dad would go to games sometimes,†says Matthews, who is just two days too young for the 2015 draft. “I enjoyed watching it and asked my parents if I could play and I started playing when I was five-years-old. I just kept at it from there.â€

Of note: Mathew's mother was born in Mexico.

What does the mirror tell you? Is it a love Glendale? Is it an inability to see a larger picture? Is it fear? Is it jealousy? Hatred? Something as simple as the ignorant notion that hockey belongs in locations where ice can freeze naturally?

NOTE TO OP: This is not directed at you per se, but a response that fit your post and the thread as a whole.

Maybe you should be asking yourself why you care so little for the community of Glendale. Glendale isn't some special snowflake, it's no different than any community on this planet, filled with humans who are just trying to live their lives. In many ways this is no different of a situation than a company going bankrupt and leaving behind a toxic brownfield site that the host community now has to clean up. How does one not empathize with the citizens when what happens there could easily happen to us?

What is worse is that you are talking about a sports franchise as if it's the most important thing in the world. It isn't, it is the least. This of course doesn't stop the sense of entitlement of so many true believer sports fans, a feeling that unfortunately is also universal. I can personally attest to tilting at this windmill in my own hometown

We also currently live in an era where the leadership of sports organizations feel that it's become bigger than the sport itself, and that care nothing for host communities as long as those citizens pay and continue to pay even when there is no money left to pay with. One can not help but see parallels between Brazil's World Cup experience and what the NHL is doing Glendale. And much like with John Oliver and FIFA, I can love hockey and hate the NHL for it's corrupt behaviour. I would love nothing more than see the NHL burn to the ground for it's hubris, and see the American DOJ perp walk Gary Bettman.

So instead of casting aspersions of the motives of the people here, how about dealing with issues instead? Instead of whining about outsiders talking about this, how about realizing that the issues facing Glendale are issues facing everyone, everywhere?

 

[Evil Doctor]

You're a casual observer. I've been here since 2004, joined when the lockout was going on. You should have seen the BOH back then. It was like WWIII.

I read through some of those threads from back then. Such small threads, so few posters, so many asterisks...

 

[madhi19]

All quiet on the southern front again today. Except for parroting the NHL position nobody talking in the media. EDIT:Well I spoke too soon TSN got something interesting. It kind of old news, but at least it not just repeating the crap spewed by the NHL.

 

[Confucius]

I read through some of those threads from back then. Such small threads, so few posters, so many asterisks...

90% probably got deleted, due to mod cleanups. Lol

 

[aqib]

Ouch. People probably don't want to go out to the west valley on a weeknight, that does not mean they are bad fans imo. The team should be at Talking Stick to avoid this.

(sigh) ok lets try this again. Attendance at Talking Stick started at 15,585 their first year and then trended down to 13,229 in year 7. Despite the fact that the team made the playoffs 5 out of its first 6 seasons.

Then they moved to Glendale and attendance first year was 15,467 and then drifted down to 13,345 this past year when the team had the second worst record in the league. So all the talk of "if they downtown things would be different" is simply an assertion. The data doesn't support that at all:

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=7450

 

[Fugu]

90% probably got deleted, due to mod cleanups. Lol

We know we're doing a good job when both sides of a debate message us to let us know how biased we are, our agenda is clear, and that freedom of speech is dead!

 

[aqib]

Good to see you posting here, waffles. I'll add my two cents (or more like 20 bucks) at the bottom.

Mostly aimed at waffles, but there was quite a bit of discussion, and several Wings fans here voiced their disapproval over the use of state tax dollars for the partial financing of the new arena.

The city of Detroit did ask for some guarantees, like a set percentage of construction jobs going to Detroit residents-- keeping in mind that Detroit isn't actually paying for the arena. As others have pointed out, it's private + public (state development money earmarked for the city). Sure. some people asked why not give that money to the school system, etc.

This also is one case where almost all the fans are coming from outside Detroit and spending money and contributing taxes that will stay in Detroit. They don't foot the bill, but they will reap the benefits from the arena and other facilities/amenities being added.

The better question then is why is the state of Michigan willing to fund part of the arena? I think they justified it as a means to drive money into Detroit as well. Nevertheless, I don't like public money going to sports facilities. I think the billionaire owners of the majority of major US pro teams can afford it.

(And to address the bankruptcy of Detroit gets into decades of politics and corruption by its own government. No one wants to give the city money because it's not going to end up helping the citizens.)

In the link you posted it indicated Detroit was giving land for the arena. Detroit is giving away all kinds of real estate to people and businesses to come/stay downtown.

Sports facilities get a lot of attention because they are high profile but corporations get all kinds of government support all the time. People praised Seattle/Washington State for not caving to the SuperSonics demands but they have billions in tax breaks to Boeing who made $5 billion last year and still wound up moving jobs out of the state anyway. While guys like Andrew Zimbalist and the guy who wrote Field of Schemes have made names for themselves ranting against sports facilities its not the worst use of taxpayer money out there.

 

[Confucius]

We know we're doing a good job when both sides of a debate message us to let us know how biased we are, our agenda is clear, and that freedom of speech is dead!

From what I've seen, it's mostly saving people from themselves....
I imagine once the heat of the moment passes most are thankful.

 

[kihekah19*]

Maybe you should be asking yourself why you care so little for the community of Glendale. Glendale isn't some special snowflake, it's no different than any community on this planet, filled with humans who are just trying to live their lives. In many ways this is no different of a situation than a company going bankrupt and leaving behind a toxic brownfield site that the host community now has to clean up. How does one not empathize with the citizens when what happens there could easily happen to us?

What is worse is that you are talking about a sports franchise as if it's the most important thing in the world. It isn't, it is the least. This of course doesn't stop the sense of entitlement of so many true believer sports fans, a feeling that unfortunately is also universal. I can personally attest to tilting at this windmill in my own hometown

We also currently live in an era where the leadership of sports organizations feel that it's become bigger than the sport itself, and that care nothing for host communities as long as those citizens pay and continue to pay even when there is no money left to pay with. One can not help but see parallels between Brazil's World Cup experience and what the NHL is doing Glendale. And much like with John Oliver and FIFA, I can love hockey and hate the NHL for it's corrupt behaviour. I would love nothing more than see the NHL burn to the ground for it's hubris, and see the American DOJ perp walk Gary Bettman.

So instead of casting aspersions of the motives of the people here, how about dealing with issues instead? Instead of whining about outsiders talking about this, how about realizing that the issues facing Glendale are issues facing everyone, everywhere?

MOD. I've said repeatedly that the citizens of Glendale are no worse off than those of any other valley community and I'm actually from here.

Businesses can and do fail, the business of NHL hockey is strong and far from reaching that point. You may not like the way it's run and feel it's abusive, but until folks start vetoing at the gate etc., it will continue - that is how business works.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I Doan know if you're from Chicago or not Melrose (avitar based guess), but I am from one of it's far SW suburbs and have traveled further and in worse traffic than the any east valley resident would have to. Thousands of actual FANS do likewise.

When I lived in the central plains, I drove five hours to Star's games, although not an sth - point being, if you love the game and want to support, you find a way.

Fair enough, but people obviously are not as die hard as you and others similar, but others simply won't do that. So you gotta make it where they don't have unfortunately.

(sigh) ok lets try this again. Attendance at Talking Stick started at 15,585 their first year and then trended down to 13,229 in year 7. Despite the fact that the team made the playoffs 5 out of its first 6 seasons.

Then they moved to Glendale and attendance first year was 15,467 and then drifted down to 13,345 this past year when the team had the second worst record in the league. So all the talk of "if they downtown things would be different" is simply an assertion. The data doesn't support that at all:

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=7450

Why do you keep quoting me with this. I'm talking about now. The franchise isn't moving this year I believe, so is 2000 not relevant to what I'm saying. I'm saying the coyotes should be in an arena that actually wants then rather then fight the COG. Why do you have a problem with my opinion here?

 

[aqib]

Fair enough, but people obviously are not as die hard as you and others similar, but others simply won't do that. So you gotta make it where they don't have unfortunately.

Why do you keep quoting me with this. I'm talking about now. The franchise isn't moving this year I believe, so is 2000 not relevant to what I'm saying. I'm saying the coyotes should be in an arena that actually wants then rather then fight the COG. Why do you have a problem with my opinion here?

Because you keep acting like the Coyotes being downtown would be the panacea that cures everything. The Coyotes would be no more of a viable franchise downtown than they are in Glendale. Even less because right off the bat they don't have the $15 million AMF. At an average of $76 a ticket (what Forbes had but I am not sure how accurate it is) they would have to draw 4800 more fans a game in order to just get to the same level of losses they have in Glendale.

Playing a lame duck year in downtown Phoenix would be a financial disaster. If they are losing that much money when they are running around the valley telling everyone who would will listen "We are committed to making it work here" what do you think will happen if they are busy packing? If they don't win in court they have to leave. They can move dates around to make it work wherever they wind up. The NBA moved the Hornets to OKC for a year on shorter notice than this. Vegas, QC, Portland, and Seattle all have second arenas that could be used for a handful of games if there are conflicts that can't be rescheduled.

 

[Fugu]

In the link you posted it indicated Detroit was giving land for the arena. Detroit is giving away all kinds of real estate to people and businesses to come/stay downtown.

Sports facilities get a lot of attention because they are high profile but corporations get all kinds of government support all the time. People praised Seattle/Washington State for not caving to the SuperSonics demands but they have billions in tax breaks to Boeing who made $5 billion last year and still wound up moving jobs out of the state anyway. While guys like Andrew Zimbalist and the guy who wrote Field of Schemes have made names for themselves ranting against sports facilities its not the worst use of taxpayer money out there.

We could have mega threads about what went wrong with Detroit, and barely scratch the surface.

In some cases, you couldn't give that land away. There entire blocks upon blocks of abandoned homes. Buildings that are vacant. Businesses and residents fled Detroit, so it's no small feat to entice them back.

 

[Fugu]

MOD. I've said repeatedly that the citizens of Glendale are no worse off than those of any other valley community and I'm actually from here.

Businesses can and do fail, the business of NHL hockey is strong and far from reaching that point. You may not like the way it's run and feel it's abusive, but until folks start vetoing at the gate etc., it will continue - that is how business works.

Is that true though? How much revenue and debt per capita do these cities have? Avg incomes? I'm curious.

 

[JimAnchower]

Because you keep acting like the Coyotes being downtown would be the panacea that cures everything. The Coyotes would be no more of a viable franchise downtown than they are in Glendale. Even less because right off the bat they don't have the $15 million AMF. At an average of $76 a ticket (what Forbes had but I am not sure how accurate it is) they would have to draw 4800 more fans a game in order to just get to the same level of losses they have in Glendale.

Playing a lame duck year in downtown Phoenix would be a financial disaster. If they are losing that much money when they are running around the valley telling everyone who would will listen "We are committed to making it work here" what do you think will happen if they are busy packing? If they don't win in court they have to leave. They can move dates around to make it work wherever they wind up. The NBA moved the Hornets to OKC for a year on shorter notice than this. Vegas, QC, Portland, and Seattle all have second arenas that could be used for a handful of games if there are conflicts that can't be rescheduled.

If those number are accurate, playing downtown is probably only justified if arrangements for a new arena have been finalized and shovels are about to enter the ground.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Because you keep acting like the Coyotes being downtown would be the panacea that cures everything. The Coyotes would be no more of a viable franchise downtown than they are in Glendale. Even less because right off the bat they don't have the $15 million AMF. At an average of $76 a ticket (what Forbes had but I am not sure how accurate it is) they would have to draw 4800 more fans a game in order to just get to the same level of losses they have in Glendale.

Playing a lame duck year in downtown Phoenix would be a financial disaster. If they are losing that much money when they are running around the valley telling everyone who would will listen "We are committed to making it work here" what do you think will happen if they are busy packing? If they don't win in court they have to leave. They can move dates around to make it work wherever they wind up. The NBA moved the Hornets to OKC for a year on shorter notice than this. Vegas, QC, Portland, and Seattle all have second arenas that could be used for a handful of games if there are conflicts that can't be rescheduled.

So just because the NBA did it means it's a good idea? Let's just move them now then. Hell there was even an article of a Phoenix councilman saying they should come downtown and so have others and even the mayor of phoenix wants to keep them. Clearly you just keep going at me, even though I'm not the only who wants at least a resolution. There are fans of the coyotes there who want to see them stay.

In the link you posted it indicated Detroit was giving land for the arena. Detroit is giving away all kinds of real estate to people and businesses to come/stay downtown.

Sports facilities get a lot of attention because they are high profile but corporations get all kinds of government support all the time. People praised Seattle/Washington State for not caving to the SuperSonics demands but they have billions in tax breaks to Boeing who made $5 billion last year and still wound up moving jobs out of the state anyway. While guys like Andrew Zimbalist and the guy who wrote Field of Schemes have made names for themselves ranting against sports facilities its not the worst use of taxpayer money out there.

Because giving money to a bunch of people who play kids games looks bad no matter what the excuse is.

 

[Whileee]

Why does this thread hold so much interest for folks that are not Coyotes' fans and don't live anywhere near Phoenix?

How about things like this?

"Prospective Canadian ownership group proposes to have the Coyotes play 5 home games in Saskatoon each year as part of their plan to make the team financially viable."

"Glendale city administrators propose to develop a Community Facilities District that will channel $25 million per year in subsidies to help purchase the Coyotes franchise for new owners, and to raise that money through levies on about 24 small-scale businesses in a mall adjacent to the arena."

"Municipality of 250,000 plans to sell bonds to raise $100 million to purchase parking rights to a parking lot that they built and own, to help finance the purchase of the Coyotes by a private businessman".

"Angry Coyotes fan group raise $10,000 to win the right for an angry fan to tase the mayor after city council votes to void the arena management agreement."

Enough said....

 

[aqib]

So just because the NBA did it means it's a good idea? Let's just move them now then. Hell there was even an article of a Phoenix councilman saying they should come downtown and so have others and even the mayor of phoenix wants to keep them. Clearly you just keep going at me, even though I'm not the only who wants at least a resolution. There are fans of the coyotes there who want to see them stay.

Because giving money to a bunch of people who play kids games looks bad no matter what the excuse is.

No just because the NBA did it means it can be done if this thing doesn't get resolved in the next couple of weeks. I would move them now but I'm not the one who gets to make the call here. Sure the councilman and the mayor will take them downtown. Its 41 more events for which they won't have to do anything. That doesn't mean that its a viable idea. The only things that have changed from when they left downtown to now is that the building has gotten older and the team went from being a novelty to being an established joke. Yes there are fans who want them to stay, just not enough of them. If there were more fans buying tickets at higher price points, more companies buying sponsorships, etc. But we don't have those here we have a bunch of excuses.

The team would draw better if they won! Except they didn't when they were winning.

The team would draw better downtown. Except they didn't when they were there.

The team would draw better if it had committed ownership. Um you've got owners who spent 4 years trying to buy the team, lost 8 figures in back-to-back years, and are going to court for the right to throw away the get out of jail free card the city handed them. How much more committed can you get?

and lastly: The NHL needs a presence in the south to get the big US TV deal. Except again that's not really true since we saw the English Premier League get a contract with NBC and the next one is expected to be bigger than the NHL's and I don't even recall them even playing exhibition games here.

You got anymore to serve up that a 30 second google search will disprove?