Phoenix CIII: Sue Me, Sue You Blues

[TheLegend]

Private school tuition is expensive!

Hah! You remembered that!

 

[GuelphStormer]

I am so disappointed that the Borrow-way "purchase" was a sham.

well done

 

[OthmarAmmann]

well done

Agreed.

 

[JeanQuebecois]

Please note than I'm not certain if this question belongs in this thread or in the relo thread.

It's often been said than the yotes could play in downtown Phoenix and partner up with the NBA Suns for a new arena. Things is, I don't understand what the Suns would gain in that partnership.

The yotes have close to no capital so they wouldn't be able to make a meaningful contribution towards the construction of a new arena. They never made a profit in 20 years in AZ so it makes no sense in my view for the Suns to buy them either. Why buy an asset which lower your profits? As it stands now the yotes wouldn't even be able to pay their fair share of the utility bills for the arena.

Soooo what do the Suns have to gain exactly?

 

[LPHabsFan]

Please note than I'm not certain if this question belongs in this thread or in the relo thread.

It's often been said than the yotes could play in downtown Phoenix and partner up with the NBA Suns for a new arena. Things is, I don't understand what the Suns would gain in that partnership.

The yotes have close to no capital so they wouldn't be able to make a meaningful contribution towards the construction of a new arena. They never made a profit in 20 years in AZ so it makes no sense in my view for the Suns to buy them either. Why buy an asset which lower your profits? As it stands now the yotes wouldn't even be able to pay their fair share of the utility bills for the arena.

Soooo what do the Suns have to gain exactly?

It's been reported that they will not play at the downtown arena.

 

[Slot]

Please note than I'm not certain if this question belongs in this thread or in the relo thread.

It's often been said than the yotes could play in downtown Phoenix and partner up with the NBA Suns for a new arena. Things is, I don't understand what the Suns would gain in that partnership.

The yotes have close to no capital so they wouldn't be able to make a meaningful contribution towards the construction of a new arena. They never made a profit in 20 years in AZ so it makes no sense in my view for the Suns to buy them either. Why buy an asset which lower your profits? As it stands now the yotes wouldn't even be able to pay their fair share of the utility bills for the arena.

Soooo what do the Suns have to gain exactly?

The only thing that immediately comes to mind is bargaining power with the city over building a new arena. Two anchor tenants with 40+ events each per annum is compelling.

 

[Fourier]

The Cupcake Summit is a little easier to explain than the Great Parking Lot Saga.

At one point the Goldwater Institute had been examining the legality of the City of Glendale's intended deal with a prospective purchaser (Reinsdorf?). My memory fails me with respect to the details, but there was at one time some kind of meeting hosted by Goldwater that came to be known as the "Cupcake Summit". Someone else will surely have all the right details.

The parking lot is not as straightforward. Believe it or not, at one time one of the prospective purchasers suggested that Glendale would lease back parking lots in the vicinity of the arena at a cost of $100-million that would, of course, be paid to the entity operating the arena on behalf of the hockey club. Again, the details escape me but there are many, many threads on this and someone else will remember.

Since then, my kids have earned several university degrees and given us a few grandchildren. Some of my friends have retired, others have died, governments have come and gone, entire wars have been fought and life goes on. The late comedian Red Skelton once joked that "nothing goes on forever . . . except the Paris peace talks!" He never lived to see the Phoenix/Arizona Coyotes purchase and sale -- THAT goes on forever!

Beautifully said!

 

[TheLegend]

It's been reported that they will not play at the downtown arena.

Because the Coyotes have said they prefer to play in Glendale. Where was this reported?

There have been brief talks between the mayor of Phoenix and reps from the Coyotes about playing downtown if Glendale manages to win their case. And the Suns' ownership has agreed to open talks if need be. But it's way too early to even consider it.

 

[powerstuck]

The only thing that immediately comes to mind is bargaining power with the city over building a new arena. Two anchor tenants with 40+ events each per annum is compelling.

Okay, but once that is done. Like Jean said, what do Coyotes gain from it ?

It's not like Gila River Arena is out of date. It's considered one of the most beautiful and technically equipped buildings in the USA. It opened in December 2003.

Usually if you are not the owner of the arena, you pay that owner to use its facility. Even as a Arena manager, you pay a sum to the owner (usually the city) to use its building and be able to make money.

So while Coyotes currently do pay RENT fee, they also receive $15M per year in management pay. That's kinda the opposite of what everyone else does.

Now, if Coyotes lose money despite BEING PAID to use an arena, how are they gonna make money in one where they need to PAY TO USE ?

You can try, but I very much doubt an explanation would make any sense at all.

 

[Slot]

Okay, but once that is done. Like Jean said, what do Coyotes gain from it ?

It's not like Gila River Arena is out of date. It's considered one of the most beautiful and technically equipped buildings in the USA. It opened in December 2003.

Usually if you are not the owner of the arena, you pay that owner to use its facility. Even as a Arena manager, you pay a sum to the owner (usually the city) to use its building and be able to make money.

So while Coyotes currently do pay RENT fee, they also receive $15M per year in management pay. That's kinda the opposite of what everyone else does.

Now, if Coyotes lose money despite BEING PAID to use an arena, how are they gonna make money in one where they need to PAY TO USE ?

You can try, but I very much doubt an explanation would make any sense at all.

Not disagreeing with anything you're saying but I believe Jean asked about the suns not the coyotes. The suns gain bargaining power for a new arena in Phoenix proper.

The coyotes get to play in a downtown stadium that is apparently the answer to all their ills (it isn't really but that is another story)

 

[JimAnchower]

Okay, but once that is done. Like Jean said, what do Coyotes gain from it ?

It's not like Gila River Arena is out of date. It's considered one of the most beautiful and technically equipped buildings in the USA. It opened in December 2003.

Usually if you are not the owner of the arena, you pay that owner to use its facility. Even as a Arena manager, you pay a sum to the owner (usually the city) to use its building and be able to make money.

So while Coyotes currently do pay RENT fee, they also receive $15M per year in management pay. That's kinda the opposite of what everyone else does.

Now, if Coyotes lose money despite BEING PAID to use an arena, how are they gonna make money in one where they need to PAY TO USE ?

You can try, but I very much doubt an explanation would make any sense at all.

Well, the original question was what do the Suns gain. The Suns would, potentially, gain a new arena that they have been suggesting is needed. They have an opt out in, IIRC, seven years. So they haven't quite started demanding one yet. If partnering with the Coyotes helps them get it faster, and they make the money work with the Coyotes, there is certainly interest from the Suns.

For the Coyotes, they would move closer to the East Valley, where the population and money are. Would moving downtown into a new arena with the Suns bring in more money for the Coyotes? Yes. Would it offset the AMF they get from COG as well as the losses they get in Glendale? I don't think anyone knows the answer to that.

There have been suggestions here from some commentators that they best way, perhaps the only way, that it works out for the Coyotes is if Sarver, the Suns owner, buys the team. He could use the Coyotes as a package deal for the city to build him an arena, negotiate local tv/radio rights, and align with advertisers.

 

[saskganesh]

So while Coyotes currently do pay RENT fee, they also receive $15M per year in management pay. That's kinda the opposite of what everyone else does.

Now, if Coyotes lose money despite BEING PAID to use an arena, how are they gonna make money in one where they need to PAY TO USE ?

You can try, but I very much doubt an explanation would make any sense at all.

The spin is that they will be closer to more of their fanbase, who will then happily spend up to $400,000 more per game in order to make up for the loss of the AMF. An increase in corporate sponsorships/suite sales would help with that number.

Given the number of obstructed seats in the older arena, I reckon there will also have to be a hike in ticket prices in this scenario.

Of course, even if all that comes to pass, the team is still losing money. Much more revenue will need to be generated.

 

[LPHabsFan]

Because the Coyotes have said they prefer to play in Glendale. Where was this reported?

There have been brief talks between the mayor of Phoenix and reps from the Coyotes about playing downtown if Glendale manages to win their case. And the Suns' ownership has agreed to open talks if need be. But it's way too early to even consider it.

http://www.tsn.ca/talent/coyotes-will-eye-other-cities-if-team-loses-lawsuit-1.310073

 

[aqib]

Well, the original question was what do the Suns gain. The Suns would, potentially, gain a new arena that they have been suggesting is needed. They have an opt out in, IIRC, seven years. So they haven't quite started demanding one yet. If partnering with the Coyotes helps them get it faster, and they make the money work with the Coyotes, there is certainly interest from the Suns.

For the Coyotes, they would move closer to the East Valley, where the population and money are. Would moving downtown into a new arena with the Suns bring in more money for the Coyotes? Yes. Would it offset the AMF they get from COG as well as the losses they get in Glendale? I don't think anyone knows the answer to that.

There have been suggestions here from some commentators that they best way, perhaps the only way, that it works out for the Coyotes is if Sarver, the Suns owner, buys the team. He could use the Coyotes as a package deal for the city to build him an arena, negotiate local tv/radio rights, and align with advertisers.

Sarver doesn't need to buy the Coyotes to do a package deal Colangelo didn't own them when he packaged the Diamondbacks TV rights with them when they first moved. Given the low ratings how much more would someone pay to have Coyotes media rights on top of the Suns? If Sarver had interest in owning the Coyotes he could have had them for a song years ago and put more pressure on Phoenix for a new arena by using control of Gila River as leverage. Also he would have control of both venues in the area. He didn't lift a finger then why would he now.

 

[Llama19]

Sarver doesn't need to buy the Coyotes to do a package deal Colangelo didn't own them when he packaged the Diamondbacks TV rights with them when they first moved. Given the low ratings how much more would someone pay to have Coyotes media rights on top of the Suns? If Sarver had interest in owning the Coyotes he could have had them for a song years ago and put more pressure on Phoenix for a new arena by using control of Gila River as leverage. Also he would have control of both venues in the area. He didn't lift a finger then why would he now.

Exactly...

 

[Killion]

Notice;

There have been brief talks between the mayor of Phoenix and reps from the Coyotes about playing downtown if Glendale manages to win their case. And the Suns' ownership has agreed to open talks if need be. But it's way too early to even consider it.

True enough, no point in taking any options off the table but yes, its far too early to consider such.

Trying to measure or determine the probability or likelihood of such an occurrence
takes this thread down yet another twisted road of speculation thats not helpful.

Take it to the Coyotes Contingency Plan Thread & reel it back in here please gang.

 

[Thegreatwar]

So Hulsizer was going to buy parking rights from the City ... With the City's own money? That's ****ed up

 

[Slashers98]

It has been very quiet over the last two days. Is it the calm before the storm?

It's the Stanley Cup parade today, nothing major will be announced... but tomorrow!

 

[Llama19]

Will Anthony LeBlanc pull this out as his "Plan B"?

Source: http://archive.azcentral.com/kpnx/pdf/jobing-arena-mgt.pdf

 

[SunDancer]

One point that's been made several times is that the NHL will be reluctant to pursue a lengthy trial and risk the negative fallout in the press but I'm not convinced that's the case. When has the NHL ever backed down from a fight in the courts? On the contrary, the NHL leadership seems to be made up of litigious personalities that relish the idea of a good legal scrap.

Nor do I believe that they are in the least bit concerned about any negative press. Since when has the NHL given a rat's tail what the fans or media think? We're talking about a league that regularly initiates lockouts come hell or high water.

I also think that dragging this out could actually have some advantages for the league as well. The NHL'S PR machine is in overdrive and Glendale has had it share of mud slung it's way. In time, public pressure, recalls, etc. could sway some of those votes on council in the NHL'S favor. More importantly, it gives the league time to dictate a resolution on its terms, i.e. perhaps find a new investor that would facilitate a move downtown or simply maximize a relo sale.

The NHL has had so many opportunities to move this franchise but, for whatever reason, it has always opted to stay... always. I doubt that this latest threat will force them to rush out of town... especially if they have a chance to win their case.

 

[Slashers98]

One point that's been made several times is that the NHL will be reluctant to pursue a lengthy trial and risk the negative fallout in the press but I'm not convinced that's the case. When has the NHL ever backed down from a fight in the courts? On the contrary, the NHL leadership seems to be made up of litigious personalities that relish the idea of a good legal scrap.

Nor do I believe that they are in the least bit concerned about any negative press. Since when has the NHL given a rat's tail what the fans or media think? We're talking about a league that regularly initiates lockouts come hell or high water.

I also think that dragging this out could actually have some advantages for the league as well. The NHL'S PR machine is in overdrive and Glendale has had it share of mud slung it's way. In time, public pressure, recalls, etc. could sway some of those votes on council in the NHL'S favor. More importantly, it gives the league time to dictate a resolution on its terms, i.e. perhaps find a new investor that would facilitate a move downtown or simply maximize a relo sale.

The NHL has had so many opportunities to move this franchise but, for whatever reason, it has always opted to stay... always. I doubt that this latest threat will force them to rush out of town... especially if they have a chance to win their case.

The difference now is that Glendale is not giving millions of dollars to the NHL. They want to kick the Coyotes out of their building...

 

[GuelphStormer]

So Hulsizer was going to buy parking rights from the City ... With the City's own money? That's ****ed up

Yes, yes it is. One of the many mensa moments.

 

[LPHabsFan]

One point that's been made several times is that the NHL will be reluctant to pursue a lengthy trial and risk the negative fallout in the press but I'm not convinced that's the case. When has the NHL ever backed down from a fight in the courts? On the contrary, the NHL leadership seems to be made up of litigious personalities that relish the idea of a good legal scrap.

Nor do I believe that they are in the least bit concerned about any negative press. Since when has the NHL given a rat's tail what the fans or media think? We're talking about a league that regularly initiates lockouts come hell or high water.

I also think that dragging this out could actually have some advantages for the league as well. The NHL'S PR machine is in overdrive and Glendale has had it share of mud slung it's way. In time, public pressure, recalls, etc. could sway some of those votes on council in the NHL'S favor. More importantly, it gives the league time to dictate a resolution on its terms, i.e. perhaps find a new investor that would facilitate a move downtown or simply maximize a relo sale.

The NHL has had so many opportunities to move this franchise but, for whatever reason, it has always opted to stay... always. I doubt that this latest threat will force them to rush out of town... especially if they have a chance to win their case.

right and wrong. You're right in that the NHL doesn't usually give a crap about public perception. However I don't believe they want to prolong it. Firstly, they just tried to expedite the process and were denied by the judge. Secondly, the longer it goes, the more of a possibility there is to leave the franchise vulnerable. Maybe they find out in late August three weeks before training camp that they lost the case and now have to deal with the COG on their terms.

Will Anthony LeBlanc pull this out as his "Plan B"?

Source: http://archive.azcentral.com/kpnx/pdf/jobing-arena-mgt.pdf

This letter is really confusing. I was under the impression that Leblanc was part of the JIG lease process yet in this email he appears to be praising them for attempting to find a Plan B after that whole thing fell through.

Either way, this is just really funny....

 

[LPHabsFan]

The difference now is that Glendale is not giving millions of dollars to the NHL. They want to kick the Coyotes out of their building...

No they don't want to kick them out. Not at all. They just want to A - have a legal lease rather than the one they have and B - one that doesn't keep them bent over a barrel....

 

[Major4Boarding]

The difference now is that Glendale is not giving millions of dollars to the NHL. They want to kick the Coyotes out of their building...

I think this is a refrain that needs to be squelched. CoG doesn't want them out of their building. Apparently, they only want to pay $6M a year max.