Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVI: Barbarian at the Gate

[billy blaze]

I'm assuming Bob Young is a hypothetical person, if not who is he?

I do agree with you. If anyone wanted to buy the Coyotes and move them to Hamilton, Winnipeg, KC, Las Vegas or Bogota, and the BoG had not agreed to put a team in that city, they would be rejected. If the BoG ever decides it wants a team, someone the BoG wants as a partner will get the opportunity. I doubt his initials will be JB or RR though.

he is another man from Hamilton mod:delete, owner of our CFL team and multi multi millionaire, owner of the CFL team here

 

[Jarqui]

Well, if you look at Zimbalists methodology in coming up with his figure, it makes perfect sense. However, the formula that Judge Baum will follow is that Raiders II precedent, or value of the team in hamilton (which is slightly subjective), minus the value of phoenix. An interesting aside is that Zimbalist actually used the interpretation of the NHL constitution in coming up with his formula. Unfortunately, 'the NHL doesn't always follow their own constitution'. That's a quote from judge Baum by the way.
Not to mention the fact that the dirty, corrupt, contradictory, full of holes NHL constitution isn't worth the cheap paper that it's printed on.

I'm not going to waste any more time on Zimbalist. His report is utter garbage nonsense and in previous posts I've covered off why I think that is so. There are definitely some legit facts contained in his report but the mix of how and where he takes those facts to get to the conclusion he does is completely absurd.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

He does as of May 2009, but he did not in November 2008. That's one of my difficulties with the argument the should have been exclusively approached last November.

Good question regarding the CCB. I'm sure WC and GC will have an opinion for us soon.

Fair enough, I'd agree with that except "everybody knows" Balsillie is one of those few people who according to Richard Rodier run Canada, and because of that, the CCB question is surely rhetorical. Balsillie runs that per Rodier.

Bob Young is another wealthy individual from Hamilton - super character guy. I think he would be challenged just as much as JB - this is about S. Ontario and not so much JB. That is my point.

Bob Young is the guy who commercialized Linux (Red Hat Software, I think?). He became a very rich man in the dot-com era. He also owns the Ti-Cats.



How do you know what his character is? I am not saying whetehr he is a trustworthy guy or not. Maybe he is the best guy ever. However, neither of us know him, I suspect.

he is another man from Hamilton mod:delete, owner of our CFL team and multi multi millionaire, owner of the CFL team here

Thanks all. I had never heard of him. I assume if Bob Young passes BoG approval, he could buy a team. Unless the BoG decides it want s a team in Hamilton, he would have to own that team in a market the League has decided to put a team. Same is true for Larry Ellison, Scott McNealey, Steve Ballmer, or Elmer Fudd.

 

[Jarqui]

Yes and the group that came up with 195M were bang on right? The Leafs are an entity of their own - tons of history in the largest city in Canada. Like it or not, the HAmilton market much more closely resembles the Buffalo market than the Toronto market.

I didn't say the groups who came up with the $101-195 mil range were bang on either. But I will say this: they're a lot closer to reality than Zimbalist.

 

[GSC2k2*]

From Brahm Resnik:
http://twitter.com/brahmresnik

Hey, I broke this around here over the weekend!!! You and Resnik get in line!!!

 

[Jaym3000]

Bob Young is the guy who commercialized Linux (Red Hat Software, I think?). He became a very rich man in the dot-com era. He also owns the Ti-Cats.



How do you know what his character is? I am not saying whetehr he is a trustworthy guy or not. Maybe he is the best guy ever. However, neither of us know him, I suspect.

So you are saying the NHL would go the character route again? - how convenient, but so typical. Avoid the market decision completely, similar to you avoiding my question.

 

[GSC2k2*]

He does as of May 2009, but he did not in November 2008. That's one of my difficulties with the argument the should have been exclusively approached last November.

Good question regarding the CCB. I'm sure WC and GC will have an opinion for us soon.

I doubt that it would be contrary to the Competition Act. Exclusivity arrangements are pretty commonplace. That being said, there is much that is dependent on the intent of parties and impact of behaviour. If, for example, MLSE obtained an exclusivity arrangement for NHL hockey for Copps, that might be a different story; I doubt that would pass muster.

I also would expect (hope) that Hamilton would have an opportunity to get out of such an arrangement if JB was out of the auction and another bidder presented itself.

 

[billy blaze]

How do you know what his character is? I am not saying whetehr he is a trustworthy guy or not. Maybe he is the best guy ever. However, neither of us know him, I suspect.

i do know him, great guy, lives primarrily in North Carolina, like Balsillie, Young family into philanthropy in our area, bought the TiCats because they were the favourite team of his brother who died of cancer, saved the team for Hamilton-

and I am leaving right now to give him some of my money at the sold out football stadium this afternoon-

ARGOS SUCK

 

[berklon]

I don't know Bob Young personally, but a buddy of mine deals with him one-on-one all the time with the company he works for. He has nothing but the nicest things to say about him - both personally and professionally.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Same is true for Larry Ellison, Scott McNealey, Steve Ballmer, or Elmer Fudd.

Nope, Fudd's out. He was quoted in the Globe & Mail by Shoalts the other day as saying "ooooh, that wascawwy Bettman!! He is NEVER going to appwove me!!! He said it was because of some wubbish about sewial cwuelty to wabbits, but I KNOW he is just doing the bidding of those damn Weafs!!!!"

So you are saying the NHL would go the character route again? - how convenient, but so typical. Avoid the market decision completely, similar to you avoiding my question.

Huh??? Where do you get that from my post? I am simply responding to your reference of Young as a "super character guy", when you undoubtedly are not an acquaintance of his. Also, exactly what question of yours are I avoiding? Did you direct one at ME that I missed? If so, point it out, because I assure you that you cannot pose a question that I would fear or otherwise wish to avoid for any reason.

 

[CGG]

Given that he was a 100% owner in good standing of an existing team, do you REALLY think that your proposition is true? I mean, come on.

Let's not forget that he (Leipold) had a $10 million loan outstanding to Boots when he bought the Minnesota Wild. Apparently the league didn't ask or care enough to discover this. Maybe it indeed was a rubber stamped approval?

 

[Wetcoaster]

Moyes needs a lesson in investing, he is entitled to little if anything at all.

It depends upon how the money put in by Moyes is characterized - is it a loan or is it equity. That is an issue Judge Baum has yet to decide.

Whenever the Moyes issue is heard, team owners will be watching closely for a couple of reasons. If the court sides with Glendale and the NHL, it could mean any team owner who has to reach into his own pocket to pay for losses will similarly be left with nothing if his team goes bankrupt. But the bigger problem for owners, according to one NHL governor, is the tax implications.

The governor, speaking on condition of anonymity, said paying for operating losses as loans is common practice in professional sports for tax reasons. If the owner puts in his money as equity it is treated as income and is taxed accordingly when he is repaid by the team. Loans are not subject to income tax.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/moyes-decision-could-set-precedent/article1275338/

 

[Wetcoaster]

At what point (if at any point) does the judge make a ruling on whether or not Moyes is a creditor? If the judge rules that Moyes is an equityholder rather than a debtholder, can Balsillie reshuffle the $212.5 million to exclude Moyes?

September 10 apparently.

The City of Glendale, where the Coyotes play, has asked the U.S. Bankruptcy Court to rule that it is equity, which means Moyes would receive nothing from any of the three potential bids for the team. The NHL, which has a bid of $140-million for the Coyotes, supports Glendale on this issue since its offer does not include any provision to pay Moyes.

During Wednesday's court hearing on whether or not Balsillie's $212.5-million bid for the Coyotes should be accepted by the court despite the fact Balsillie was rejected as an owner by the NHL (a decision was reserved), it was also decided that Moyes's status would not be argued until Sept. 10 – the day of the auction sale – at the earliest. And if the long list of other matters to be argued before the sale can proceed takes up too much time, the Moyes issue will not be heard until some time after the sale.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/moyes-decision-could-set-precedent/article1275338/

 

[Wetcoaster]

Maybe you're right. Maybe the NHL will never put a team in Hamilton or 2nd team in Toronto. But you know what? It has the right to decide that.

I simply disagree with your assertion. When the price is right there will be a 2nd team in Toronto or one in Hamilton.

The Canadian Competition Bureau may have something to say about it based on some of the allegations being made during the bankruptcy proceedings and documents that have been introduced.

 

[TerminatorBlue]

Did Judge Baum give at date on his decision?

 

[RR]

The Canadian Competition Bureau may have something to say about it based on some of the allegations being made during the bankruptcy proceedings and documents that have been introduced.

I agree. But for now it's a right the NHL still possesses.

 

[Fugu]

If the NHL delivered no goodwill to the Hamilton area, how did this 'greatest unserved NHL hockey market in the world' develop? Did Balsillie just snap his fingers one day and it magically appeared?

And I don't care what Zimbalist's resume says. Anyone who came up with "fee should be 11.2 to 12.9 million" ought to be severely embarrassed because those numbers simply haven't the faintest link to credibility or reality.

You keep saying this yet you haven't offered up what the appropriate methodology should be, nor has anyone offered up the contents of the NHL's experts' methodology. You just seem to like their number better. Furthermore, you completely have ignored that the two experts came up with numbers that are almost $100 MM apart! What methodology delivers that big of a difference?

On the goodwill aspect:
Isn't the value of a franchise in any 'new' location inherently based on the good will built up by a league? We're not selling capital equipment or land here, but a right to own and operate a team as part of that league. Using Raiders as the precedent seems to recognize the current value of each location, and then recognize the difference. Zimbalist clearly is adding on the difference.

You'll find it on the balance sheet of every team in the NHL. Take your pick. If you want to look more specifically to this case, the Leafs and the Sabres balance sheets will do.

A part of where this 'goodwill' discussion is warped is that Rodier's arbitrary definition of goodwill for what suits Balsillie best is being applied by unilaterally Rodier/Balsillie. That is to say that Rodier believes that the only way goodwill is accrued for a territory is by direct expense to a specific area. I think the M&A accountants will have a field day with that definition for a variety of reasons. Two of them would be:

a) because that isn't the only way one would look at what went into developing goodwill for an area. For example, why shouldn't semi-national or broader goodwill efforts over the decades that included the Hamilton area not count?
b) "a)" above isn't the only way goodwill is achieved in the accounting world.

If there's one thing I've learned in this case, it's that just because a sleazy guy like Rodier says something, that most certainly doesn't make it so.

Quantify it then. I think my explanation above captures one way to look at value. What is yours?

I'm not going to waste any more time on Zimbalist. His report is utter garbage nonsense and in previous posts I've covered off why I think that is so. There are definitely some legit facts contained in his report but the mix of how and where he takes those facts to get to the conclusion he does is completely absurd.

Again, you keep saying this without being willing to lay it out on a table, get the competing experts' opinion, and then discuss why one or the other is better. In my opinion, it doesn't seem the methodology is what you're questioning, but the number derived from each.... And again, you ignore the huge difference between the two NHL numbers. How absurd is it that they can be that far apart?

I didn't say the groups who came up with the $101-195 mil range were bang on either. But I will say this: they're a lot closer to reality than Zimbalist.

Which reality?

 

[Habsterix*]

Had Bettman fought that hard to keep the Nordiques and the Jets in their cities...

 

[mouser]

A part of where this 'goodwill' discussion is warped is that Rodier's arbitrary definition of goodwill for what suits Balsillie best is being applied by unilaterally Rodier/Balsillie. That is to say that Rodier believes that the only way goodwill is accrued for a territory is by direct expense to a specific area. I think the M&A accountants will have a field day with that definition for a variety of reasons. Two of them would be:

Rodier has taken the approach of trying to get a narrow definition of Goodwill as you describe in both multiple filings and several oral arguments in court by Freeman. However Judge Baum has pretty much indicated he's not going to buy that definition by his referencing the Raiders case market value differences--that invalidates Rodier's goodwill definition.

 

[bbud]

Please STOP speaking for Hamiltonians. Neither I, nor CanadianBacon (another Hamilton poster) nor anyone else has authorized you to speak for Hamiltonians.

Speak for yourself, and yourself only.

As for the remainder of your post, it is unfortunately contradicted by the court record, including sworn testimony of and emails between BOTH sides. The facts speak far more eloquently than your unsupported conspiracy theories and rewriting of history.

It is likely that he has more support than you do GCC2K2 you spend a lot of time belittling anyone who is not as educated as you and the fact is you support 1 side and back up your opinions often by knocking soemone else down , you are not authorized to speak for hamiltonians either but seem to take that as your calling at times here why cant he?

Had Bettman fought that hard to keep the Nordiques and the Jets in their cities...

His long term goal was more USA based teams to have more leverage for a long term Tv deal there which i understand but he certainly had way less respect for anyone North of the 49th when it came to such it appears now.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

His long term goal was more USA based teams to have more leverage for a long term Tv deal there which i understand but he certainly had way less respect for anyone North of the 49th when it came to such it appears now.

When was it ever a matter of "respect"? I think you're reading too much into this.

 

[kdb209]

If the judge declares JB's bid the winner, and he becomes the legal owner, they can indeed be compelled to accept a team in Hamilton ...that's how ( * cough cough ) democracy and the rule of law ( theoretically ) works.

Only if:

- The NHL doesn't appeal any decision to the Ninth Circuit, or
- The Ninth Circuit does not issue a stay pending appeal, or
- A three judge panel of the Ninth Circuit upholds the ruling (and the NHL doesn't appeal further), or
- The full panel of the Ninth Circuit opts not to re-hear the case or upholds the ruling (and the NHL doesn't appeal further), or
- The SCOTUS opts not to hear the case or upholds the ruling.

Then, and only then, does JB become the legal owner and the league is compelled to accept a team in Hamilton.

 

[Gnashville]

His long term goal was more USA based teams to have more leverage for a long term Tv deal there which i understand but he certainly had way less respect for anyone North of the 49th when it came to such it appears now.

Please provide a list of people willing to buy the Jets or Nordiques and keep them in Canada before posting such drivel.

 

[taunting canadian]

Please provide a list of people willing to buy the Jets or Nordiques and keep them in Canada before posting such drivel.

The NHL could have bought them!

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

point of reference

Aren't the Jets and the Coyotes the same franchise? Because if they are, Bettman's off the hook for that relocation as he is Quebec and Hartford.