Player Discussion Phillip Danault - The Centermania Edition

[LaP]

That's basically it, he would be the 3C or lower on all but 4 of 14 cup teams since the lockout.

Deserve to be noted that 3 of those 4 teams is the same team Chicago Also important to note that Chicago had two HOF wingers in Hossa and Kane. They are both a lock for the HOF imo. We have no wingers even close to be considered for the HOF. Our two best wingers Tatar and Gallagher are not better than Sharp who was their 3rd winger.

They also had a very good 1st dman and a good big body sidekick to play with him. Prime Keith and Seabrook were significantly better than Weber and Petry are right now. They had a very good 200 feet first line center too who is overrated imo (not top 100 ever) but still significantly better than any center we have right now and is also a lock for the HOF.

Their 2nd line center was definitely one of their biggest weakness. That's why from what i can recall they had 3 different 2rd line center for their cups. I think Bolland was for their first cup. End of career Handzus for their 2nd and end of career Richards for their 3rd. They had no stability at this position because the guys ultimately were not good enough for this role. Handzus really was a 3rd line center all his career. Bolland was carried and Richards was at this point of his career a 3rd line center at best.

Price used to be the guy who would let us have holes in the lineup like Toews and Kane when he was in his prime. Subban, Markov and Patch would help too. No matter how much some guys hate them both Subban and Patch were dominant in their prime. Probably top 10 at their position in their prime. Back then we were able to afford having holes. The first line center one was too big to contend but this really was the main big problem with that team. Back then maybe Danault would have been enough he's definitely better than DD that's for sure no doubt about it.

But right now we are not this team anymore. Price will be 33 and Weber 35 next season. Father time spare nobody. They are still good but not dominant enough to cover for holes in the lineup. Any holes will hurt and the top 6 centers are definitely one along with the left side of the defense. Wings are not too bad if Domi is moved back there. Wings lack size though with Domi as part of the group.

 

[Sorinth]

Perhaps they are that productive because bergeron is that good of a center. I would say his assist tally IS higher because his linemates can put it in the net, but its maybe 5-10 assists a year. Its his goalscoring ability that makes him a threat. Also frees up ice for his linemates. Guy can't stay healthy but has hit 30 goals 5 times and sits at 29 this year. in 2005 as a 20 year old he had 31 goals 42 assist for 73 points. He has had only 4 seasons he didn't hit 20 goals 1 was his rokie year, one he was injured almost the entire year, 1 was the year following his major injury where he only played 64 games and finally the shortened season.

I am sorry but everytime you guys bring up Bergeron playing with better players while this guy put up 31 goals as a 20 year old when his present linemates weren't even in juniors. His number are PPG the last 3 seasons, but its not like the guy wasn't scoring before these guys were on his wings. Bergeron has hands, danault simply doesn't. I would argue DD has better vision and passing than danault. but DD had ZERO backchecking.

But people keep saying in this very thread that he is a selke like candidate and our version of bergeron. Its simply isn't the case. Bergeron is a PPG player, so are his linemates. But he does a lot of scoring too. Bergeron is no A Oates, and Danault certainly isn't either.

Like I said Bergeron is unquestionably better, I brought him up to highlight the double standard. People dismiss Danault's production because he plays lots of minutes on the first line with the team's best wingers. Well if those were valid reasons to dismiss someone's production, then they apply even more so to Bergeron.

That's the disconnect with Danault, for some people they see Danault's production as unearned/undeserving.

 

[gillyguzzler]

As has been said too many times here, Danault should not be a #1 center but he's there by default and I really believe that Gally and Tatar love playing with him.

It would be great if he was playing as our 3C in a shutdown role with Lehky and ??. But Suzuki is not quite ready, KK regressed and Domi has been inconsistent.

I bet our new coach next year starts by separating the top line.

Tatar-Domi-Armia
Drouin-Suzuki-Gally
Lehkonen-Danault-Byron

or something like that depending on trades and the progressions of KK and Poehling.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Yes I can since your evaluation is based on subjective impression... I can also be as subjective.

Let's keep being subjective and talk about the importance of being a 200 foot player to be considered a 1st line player. In taht Danault is closer than Gallagher.

If frustrating to see the negative double standards Danault gets on this board.

the list of 1st liners who are NOT 200 ft players is pretty loooooooong.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Like I said Beregeron is unquestionably better, I brought him up to highlight the double standard. People dismiss Danault's production because he plays lots of minutes on the first line with the team's best wingers. Well if those were valid reasons to dismiss someone's production, then they apply even more so to Bergeron.

That's the disconnect with Danault, for some people they see Danault's production as unearned/undeserving.

clearly, you are joking.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Not so much stone hands or he wouldn't be in nhl level,
I would add he makes "pin-ball plays" and he's lucky with "pin ball pushing puck".

Stone hands for NHL level, obviously he's way better than the average joe, but for the NHL it's not good.

 

[LaP]

Like I said Beregeron is unquestionably better, I brought him up to highlight the double standard. People dismiss Danault's production because he plays lots of minutes on the first line with the team's best wingers. Well if those were valid reasons to dismiss someone's production, then they apply even more so to Bergeron.

That's the disconnect with Danault, for some people they see Danault's production as unearned/undeserving.

They do right now. PB is still doing the job but at 34 years old you can question (not saying you would be right doing so) what PB would look like with normal wingers. But he's been a PPG player the last two seasons and whatever it's because he still got it in him or because of his elite wingers that's definitely good enough. From what i've seen in playoffs last year he still has it.

Now if we talk about prime PB we are talking about a guy who could end up in the HOF. A guy who did 60-70 points in career while playing a selke defensive game and with wingers like Brad Boyes, end of career Glenn Murray, Lucic, Horton, young Marchand, ... in his prime.

In career PB is producing 65 points every 82 games and he played most of his prime with wingers not any better than Gallagher and Tatar. If Danault would be doing 65 points a season i would be more than trilled. That would mean he would be a 70 points player (elite defensively) with proper elite wingers.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Yes I can since your evaluation is based on subjective impression... I can also be as subjective.

Let's keep being subjective and talk about the importance of being a 200 foot player to be considered a 1st line player. In taht Danault is closer than Gallagher.

If frustrating to see the negative double standards Danault gets on this board.

You can't name 35 better RW than Gallagher, no matter how hard you try. Gallagher is good defensively, he's one of the best at his position. There is no double standards from our end here, Gally is not getting better opportunities than a player who outscored him by 19 points last year.

 

[Mrb1p]

When people think Danault is better defensively than Gallagher... Thats why media hype is wrong.

So much misinformation and people are too stupid to think for themselves.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

I could probably contest 10 of the first 35 but...

Danault as a 2C puts you in PO.
Danault as a 3C makes you a contender.

I agree with you here and I want my team to contend.

 

[LaP]

Not so much stone hands or he wouldn't be in nhl level,
I would add he makes "pin-ball plays" and he's lucky with "pin ball pushing puck".

To be fair pretty much the whole team does that and that's one of the main reason i'm not watching the games right now. We are throwing pucks at the net and hope for the best. It's really a team's strategy right now and one that can't work against the best teams on a regular basis specially not in playoffs and at the end of the season. It works relatively well because of the weak goltending in the league right now (we face backup and AHL quality level of goaltending for like half the games) but back in the Brodure, Roy and Hasek years we would not have scored 2 goals a game doing that. It just doesn't work against good defense and good goeltending but that's not the strength in the league right now. Still very boring to watch. Don't think it's on Danault looks more like a team's strategy to me.

 

[Help]

Phil Danault should be getting more ice time

 

[Sorinth]

They do right now. PB is still doing the job but at 34 years old you can question (not saying you would be right doing so) what PB would look like with normal wingers. But he's been a PPG player the last two seasons and whatever it's because he still got it in him or because of his elite wingers that's definitely good enough. From what i've seen in playoffs last year he still has it.

Now if we talk about prime PB we are talking about a guy who could end up in the HOF. A guy who did 60-70 points in career while playing a selke defensive game and with wingers like Brad Boyes, end of career Glenn Murray, Lucic, Horton, young Marchand, ... in his prime.

In career PB is producing 65 points every 82 games and he played most of his prime with wingers not any better than Gallagher and Tatar. If Danault would be doing 65 points a season i would be more than trilled. That would mean he would be a 70 points player (elite defensively) with proper elite wingers.

I agree about Bergeron but my problem is the assertion that 60-70 points is HOF quality, but 55 points is 3rd liner? It makes no sense, Danault isn't really close to Bergeron's level, but there are a lot of levels between Bergeron and 3rd liner.

 

[JoelWarlord]

All true but this is not Danault's fault. I see a lot of tire deflating on Danault cause we don't have a #1C. I posted a roster you are talking about in another thread...

Domi / Kopitar / Tatar
Kovalchuk / Suzuki / Armia
Drouin / Danault / Gallagher

Pretty sure Danult in that "3rd line" listed spot still results in good production. Rolling 3 lines like that would be the best we had in decades!

Someone going to say this I am sure... "Gallagher is not a 3rd line forward". Go ahead and try it... if you do, you don't understand that we would have two 2nd lines and I can list them in reverse

I don't mean to deflate him, I just compare him to Jordan Staal who's a very good player but the Canes got nowhere until Aho took over at 1C. It's an important distinction when he's 1 year from free agency and when Pageau just got a 5M deal. I would be pretty nervous about giving him that kind of contract long term, especially if they're also doing the same for Gallagher, Tatar, and Petry (which at this point I'm assuming will happen).

Truthfully I'm not all that enthused by that roster as a contender but I get what you mean by Danault looking good in a deeper team that rolls two 2nd lines after a top line with an elite 1C. That's why I compare him to Staal, ultra luxury 3C, good to great 2C, and adequate 1C but ideally gets pushed down the lineup. The more I think about it the more I'm frustrated we couldn't pull of Domi + Lehkonen + prospects for Trocheck in a similar deal to what Carolina paid. That feels like a huge missed opportunity to me.

Deserve to be noted that 3 of those 4 teams is the same team Chicago Also important to note that Chicago had two HOF wingers in Hossa and Kane. They are both a lock for the HOF imo. We have no wingers even close to be considered for the HOF. Our two best wingers Tatar and Gallagher are not better than Sharp who was their 3rd winger.

They also had a very good 1st dman and a good big body sidekick to play with him. Prime Keith and Seabrook were significantly better than Weber and Petry are right now. They had a very good 200 feet first line center too who is overrated imo (not top 100 ever) but still significantly better than any center we have right now and is also a lock for the HOF.

Yeah they had all those guys + Hjalmarsson too, and Sharp as you mentioned. Just an embarrassment of riches at every position with elite players at all positions excluding 2010 Niemi who was still a totally OK starter. Imagine if they converted Byfuglien to defence back then lmao, a Keith - Seabrook / Hjalmarsson - Byfuglien top 4 is disgustingly good.

 

[LaP]

I agree about Bergeron but my problem is the assertion that 60-70 points is HOF quality, but 55 points is 3rd liner? It makes no sense, Danault isn't really close to Bergeron's level, but there are a lot of levels between Bergeron and 3rd liner.

How there is. Obviously PB would not have a chance for the HOF with just his offense. But at the same time it would be harder to get in with just a 50-50 points average. Not impossible but just harder. While Danault is great defensively PB is on another level.

 

[badi]

Danault is a solid 3 rd center
MB just needs to find the top 2 missing ....
Good luck with that !

 

[Sorinth]

clearly, you are joking.

Does Bergeron not benefit from playing with two 100 point wingers?
Does Bergeron not benefit from having tons of ice time on the top line?

 

[angusyoung]

Phil Danault should be getting more ice
time

 

[Sorinth]

How there is. Obviously PB would not have a chance for the HOF with just his offense. But at the same time it would be harder to get in with just a 50-50 points average. Not impossible but just harder. While Danault is great defensively PB is on another level.

Sure but even in terms of 2-way players, it's not a question of being Bergeron or 3rd liner. If Bergeron is the bar for a HOF quality 2-way player, then what production should we expect from a 2-way center who is 1st line player but not a HOF worthy player, what production should we expect from the 2-way guy whose a fringe 1st liner, etc...

I find it hard to believe that someone can fit in all the levels between HOF player and 3rd line center.

 

[Sorinth]

40 points on a third line is fine with me.

How many players played on their teams 3rd line and put up 40 points last year?

 

[Sorinth]

Exactly. The simple league-wide ranking and chunking by 31 teams for 1C and 2C doesn't really work if your goal is to contend since you're competing against teams with two or three guys inside the top 30-40 usually, and since center is the most important position, contending teams almost necessarily have above-average players in their 1C and 2C slots.

So does that mean we should call Malkin a 2nd line center, because a contender wants/needs a guy as good as him in that #2 slot? Or should we call him a 1st line center because he's one of the best centers out there and acknowledge contenders need 1st line quality players on their 2nd line?

 

[Archijerej]

Danault's time on ice and how it ranks among NHL centers:

Total: 18:49/GP. Ranked #33
Even strenght: 14:48/GP. Ranked #36
Powerplay: 1:32/GP. Ranked #105
Penalty kill: 2:29/GP. Ranked #13

 

[Mrb1p]

Does Bergeron not benefit from playing with two 100 point wingers?
Does Bergeron not benefit from having tons of ice time on the top line?

Yes he does, he clearly can't keep up with them offensively.

 

[MTL-rules]

You can't name 35 better RW than Gallagher, no matter how hard you try. Gallagher is good defensively, he's one of the best at his position. There is no double standards from our end here, Gally is not getting better opportunities than a player who outscored him by 19 points last year.

Yes there are double standards and it's pretty sad that you don't see your own subjectivity (calling Gally a great defender... one of his best at his position hahahahaha),

Let's see :
Gally's qualities and why you love him
- Tremendous worker (Danault also)
- Gets his nose dirty and scores a ton of dirty goals (Danault also gets his nose dirty, except he doesn't score, but help create space for his linemates and that's why they love playing with him)
- Works hard every single shift (Danault also)
- Shifty and strong for his size (Danault also... and he's bigger)

His flaws
- Not the greatest skater (Danault also)
- Not a good passer (Danault also)
- His shot is not that of a 1st liner (Danault also)
- Small (not Danault)

If Danault was born in another province, he would be loved here.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Yes there are double standards and it's pretty sad that you don't see your own subjectivity (calling Gally a great defender... one of his best at his position hahahahaha),

Let's see :
Gally's qualities and why you love him
- Tremendous worker (Danault also)
- Gets his nose dirty and scores a ton of dirty goals (Danault also gets his nose dirty, except he doesn't score, but help create space for his linemates and that's why they love playing with him)
- Works hard every single shift (Danault also)
- Shifty and strong for his size (Danault also... and he's bigger)

His flaws
- Not the greatest skater (Danault also)
- Not a good passer (Danault also)
- His shot is not that of a 1st liner (Danault also)
- Small (not Danault)

If Danault was born in another province, he would be loved here.

Gally is a #1RW in this league, Danault is not a #1C. I don't know what you are arguing here.

Gally is not a good passer, but he can score goals and that's what we ask from a winger.

The centre's job is to feed his wingers and Phillip with his average passing ability can't do that and he can't compensate for it by scoring goals, because his shot is weak.

Par contre, l'excuse du pauvre petit Danault qui n'est pas aimé parce qu'il est québécois ne marchera pas avec moi.