Phil Kessel - Discussion Thread

[realgoodleafs]

Or we find other ways to win games? Not unheard of that a team play away a player and then others step up their game since they are given more ice time. But yeah, with or without Kessel we are a bad team and it will take some years before we are back where we belong.

Its not unheard of but you and I have both seen the roster. Outside of winning mcdavid I don't see it. With Nash leaving you had Johanssen coming in and Bobrovski. Kessel isn't stopping other players from scoring, defending, and stopping pucks.

 

[Daisy Jane]

again, i think at this point it just devolves into this

We need to keep Phil Kessel because he's elite and he scores goals, and we'll ignore all the problems he actually has and can help develop because he scores goals. Because, it's not his fault that the management didn't build properly around him [which - it is not], or that he's not the most vocal guy or anything [which it isn't].

But God forbid, people can't be mad and or angry or just want to move away from someone who needs to be catered to apparently. because he scores goals. I don't even know how much more I can sum this up.

Phil Kessel is a great talent and less than 5% of people in the world can do what he does. again - I have never heard anyone diminish that. However there are so many "buts" after that statement, it's like he's a goat. But people want to ignore that. It can't possibly, for one second be that Kessel as he is, can be a part of the problem. (and we have a tonne). for me, as we've stated - a lot of people are basically saying that they are okay with this.

"Hi new guys. welcome to the Leafs. we want to really stress about how important accountability, and team work and everything is. We want to be a hard working, go into the corners. You may not win every 50/50 battle, but we want you to make it so hard for the other team. If you can't play Leafs hockey we will be moving you and bringing in people that... oh? pardon me? Who is that?

Oh, that's just Kessel. but ignore him, he can do whatever he wants because he scores goals. and he didn't ask to be a franchise player or a leader so when he comes to camp looking like a schlub or half way through the season he kooks like he doesn't give a crap - it's okay because he's an elite player.He's a follower, so once you guys put in all the work - and it's evident that you all aren't going to put up with crap like that, Kessel will totally follow you guys. Maybe he'll take hits to make a play, and we'll see if he'll go get the puck in the corner. I'm not sure about his coasting on theice, especially when he decides his shift is over. Oh - and he's really great about coming down the wing and getting his shot off, maybe but going to the net and getting the hits and stuff. may be off the table. but that's your job.

oh, what is that? Oh yes, if he still fails to be super elite, it will be your fault because you're "just you. it will even be framed as "Who does Kessel get to play with, only you." but trust me. if we somehow get better within 3-4 years and one of you centres, Maybe you Nylander, maybe you 2015 pick turn out to be amazingly good, it will be worth it because wow. the goals."

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Its not unheard of but you and I have both seen the roster. Outside of winning mcdavid I don't see it. With Nash leaving you had Johanssen coming in and Bobrovski. Kessel isn't stopping other players from scoring, defending, and stopping pucks.

Agreed. But we might still see progress. Us winning 10 in a row then go on losing 10 in a row but instead more spread out the wins and loses over the season. And when we lose it is not because the other team out worked us or we simply did not show up but that they where simply better then us. And the longer the season progress the more comfortable in their roles our players seem to be. That at least gives us hope that we are on the right track. These end of the season collapses where the team looks more confused the more they play together got to end.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

again, i think at this point it just devolves into this

We need to keep Phil Kessel because he's elite and he scores goals, and we'll ignore all the problems he actually has and can help develop because he scores goals. Because, it's not his fault that the management didn't build properly around him [which - it is not], or that he's not the most vocal guy or anything [which it isn't].

But God forbid, people can't be mad and or angry or just want to move away from someone who needs to be catered to apparently. because he scores goals. I don't even know how much more I can sum this up.

Phil Kessel is a great talent and less than 5% of people in the world can do what he does. again - I have never heard anyone diminish that. However there are so many "buts" after that statement, it's like he's a goat. But people want to ignore that. It can't possibly, for one second be that Kessel as he is, can be a part of the problem. (and we have a tonne). for me, as we've stated - a lot of people are basically saying that they are okay with this.

"Hi new guys. welcome to the Leafs. we want to really stress about how important accountability, and team work and everything is. We want to be a hard working, go into the corners. You may not win every 50/50 battle, but we want you to make it so hard for the other team. If you can't play Leafs hockey we will be moving you and bringing in people that... oh? pardon me? Who is that?

Oh, that's just Kessel. but ignore him, he can do whatever he wants because he scores goals. and he didn't ask to be a franchise player or a leader so when he comes to camp looking like a schlub or half way through the season he kooks like he doesn't give a crap - it's okay because he's an elite player.He's a follower, so once you guys put in all the work - and it's evident that you all aren't going to put up with crap like that, Kessel will totally follow you guys. Maybe he'll take hits to make a play, and we'll see if he'll go get the puck in the corner. I'm not sure about his coasting on theice, especially when he decides his shift is over. Oh - and he's really great about coming down the wing and getting his shot off, maybe but going to the net and getting the hits and stuff. may be off the table. but that's your job.

oh, what is that? Oh yes, if he still fails to be super elite, it will be your fault because you're "just you. it will even be framed as "Who does Kessel get to play with, only you." but trust me. if we somehow get better within 3-4 years and one of you centres, Maybe you Nylander, maybe you 2015 pick turn out to be amazingly good, it will be worth it because wow. the goals."

brilliant.

They should make a SNL sketch of that.

 

[yubbers]

Daisy, outside of the last 25 games, can you honestly say Phil looks like he hasn't tried since being a leaf?

 

[Daisy Jane]

brilliant.

They should make a SNL sketch of that.

i shouldn't be online before I had my morning cup of tea. but seriously.
like everyone keeps going "well, I want to see what he does with a better coach."

And pray - what better coach is this going to be? If we're going to be rebuilding we may just stick with Hoarchek, or promote Staios (because Morgan and Jake love) etc, so if Staios goes "well screw your effort, Kessel" and off to the press box he goes are people okay with that?

What if it's another coach like, Wilson, like Carlyle, the only way to really deal with Kessel is to just let him do what he does because he scores the goals. Are people going to be okay with that? I get that star players get different treatment but most star players also do "the other things." I'm not hammering Phil because he's flawed - there's no "perfect player in hockey."

then they go Well we'll wait until he gets a better centre?
Who? Kadri? (and this isn't a Slam on Naz - but basically then we're going to put all our weapons on one line, and then what?)
Who? Nylander? we're going to wait for him to develop and what not?
Who? 2015 Draft Pick [please be McDavid]? (I wouldn't want him on the team simply because he's McDavid, and if it's not him he's not going to be on the team ANYWAY).

I'm hammering Phil because to me - he is simply accepting of what he does and therefore, everyone else should be simply accepting of what he does, while everyone else should be different -which to me is wrong. I don't want Phil on the team - because as irrational or unfair as this may seem - he doesn't seem to get where the problem is. When you go. "well, I score the goals, what more do you want me to do." and everyone is saying - at least try even 5-10 percent more.' take a freaking hit, make a play, go to the net, something it's like. "whoosh" over his head, and we're in the wrong because "Oh lol you're insane, and we can't have nice things because of goals."

but hey. maybe i'm wrong and being unreasonable. which is fair. but I don't get how you remove every aspect of a team that has this aura of "we don't care" and then keep Kessel.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Daisy, outside of the last 25 games, can you honestly say Phil looks like he hasn't tried since being a leaf?

Honestly? yes I can say there are some games at some portions of times where he looks like he can't give a flying fig newton out there. that his changes are lazy as you know what, the effort isn't there. Now. there are times. (see! being fair!) if he turns over the puck, he will bust his behind to make sure he gets it back, and there are sometimes, where he does take the hit to make the play (I remember that one game in New Jersey).

I also just want to make this very clear. my paintbrush is broad. I want all ofn them gone

Dion - Bozak, JVR, Franson, Reimer, Phil, I'm an equal opportunity get the hell out of here, person. And maybe that's not fair - I will very easily acknowledge it, and you know me - if you can explain it to me I am always cotton to change my mind.

But for me - especially how last season ended with the collapse, and Phil even said (and I applauded him for it) that the team needs me to be better (which, it is,. it might not be fair, but that's how some teams are,). knowing that Shanahan spoke to everyone at length about what he expected, (he + Shanahan having a 1 on 1). knowing that Shanahan said the way people come to camp will tell me who wants to be a leaf -and Phil comes to camp looking the way he does and goes "Yah, i barely did crap this summer."

or after Randy gets fired, and Shanahan is flat out saying "we're watching you and decisions will be made." and Kessel looks like he'd rather be night fishing in his underwear in Winnipeg in the middle of winter than be on the ice right now.

To me - and i could be unfair - it feels like he's playing chicken with the organization. and it seems to me that a lot of people are willing to ignore that because he scores goals. I - have an issue with that

but I have an open mind to change my views

 

[yubbers]

You always make valid points and keep an open mind. That's why I like being on opposite ends of a discussion with you

I just have a problem with the way this whole season went down. Not a problem really but something is off. It may be a genius play by Shanny though.

Trade Gunner - head scratcher

Many said this team got worse this year (me included) and they did.

Kept a coach who was gonna get fired at any time creating a lot of instability for the team.

Firing that coach while in a playoff spot

It seems to me the entire team was set up to fail this year. So I have a problem with knee jerk reactions based solely on this season

 

[Daisy Jane]

and that is fair too, yubs.
which is why it's not like I'm saying - trade him for a bag of pucks. but at the same time - I think any discussion that starts with "Kessel should be traded" should not end with "Lols, you are dumb, we need Kessel's goals."

unless someone is dumb (and hey, who knows, the NHL is weird at times) we're never going to get 2nd overall, and 9th overall for Kessel. and I get that. but if we could get three really, great pieces (not elite - but great and help us out) - for me that's worth trading him. Yes. every team "needs" aKessel in the playoffs, especially because Kessel is a ppg in the playoffs. but I doubt very much if we'll get there before Kessel is 30. and we're seeing what the game is doing to a lot of players past 30 years old. and if Kessel isn't committed to his fitness/conditioning, etc, it will bit us in the butt.

i also don't think we can turn the page - but have a bookmark (Phil) to tie us back in the past. If Phil can change, or just. i don't know give even 10 percent more, I am all with keeping him. but there are too many "He has to do this"'es for me to really see the point if we're scorched earth-ing. but we'll see. (I do think though that Phil + Dion both need to be decisions made by the New GM. so there's that)

 

[leafstilldeath*]

people crapping on Kessel should be ashamed of themselves

 

[Purity*]

people crapping on Kessel should be ashamed of themselves

He's the most convenient scapegoat (alongside Dion) and people just run away with it.

Some people refuse to look at facts for what they are. Phil has never played with a #1C, a #1D, or even another top-liner. Some people look at Phil and his 8$ cap hit and say "he's bad in corners and bad defensively TRADE HIM!.."

Taking a real look at our forward situation, what's really the problem here? Having a point-per-game scorer at 8M$ or having 15M$ combined cap hit tied up in pure mediocrity? (Bozak, Clarkson, Lupul).

 

[mikeyz]

i shouldn't be online before I had my morning cup of tea. but seriously.
like everyone keeps going "well, I want to see what he does with a better coach."

And pray - what better coach is this going to be? If we're going to be rebuilding we may just stick with Hoarchek, or promote Staios (because Morgan and Jake love) etc, so if Staios goes "well screw your effort, Kessel" and off to the press box he goes are people okay with that?

What if it's another coach like, Wilson, like Carlyle, the only way to really deal with Kessel is to just let him do what he does because he scores the goals. Are people going to be okay with that? I get that star players get different treatment but most star players also do "the other things." I'm not hammering Phil because he's flawed - there's no "perfect player in hockey."

then they go Well we'll wait until he gets a better centre?
Who? Kadri? (and this isn't a Slam on Naz - but basically then we're going to put all our weapons on one line, and then what?)
Who? Nylander? we're going to wait for him to develop and what not?
Who? 2015 Draft Pick [please be McDavid]? (I wouldn't want him on the team simply because he's McDavid, and if it's not him he's not going to be on the team ANYWAY).

I'm hammering Phil because to me - he is simply accepting of what he does and therefore, everyone else should be simply accepting of what he does, while everyone else should be different -which to me is wrong. I don't want Phil on the team - because as irrational or unfair as this may seem - he doesn't seem to get where the problem is. When you go. "well, I score the goals, what more do you want me to do." and everyone is saying - at least try even 5-10 percent more.' take a freaking hit, make a play, go to the net, something it's like. "whoosh" over his head, and we're in the wrong because "Oh lol you're insane, and we can't have nice things because of goals."

but hey. maybe i'm wrong and being unreasonable. which is fair. but I don't get how you remove every aspect of a team that has this aura of "we don't care" and then keep Kessel.

No. You are actually hitting the nail right on the head and this is exactly what i was telling my brother in law yesturday (who is the ultimate Kessel fanboy who can do no wrong just because he scores goals)

 

[leafstilldeath*]

He's the most convenient scapegoat (alongside Dion) and people just run away with it.

Some people refuse to look at facts for what they are. Phil has never played with a #1C, a #1D, or even another top-liner. Some people look at Phil and his 8$ cap hit and say "he's bad in corners and bad defensively TRADE HIM!.."

Taking a real look at our forward situation, what's really the problem here? Having a point-per-game scorer at 8M$ or having 15M$ combined cap hit tied up in pure mediocrity? (Bozak, Clarkson, Lupul).

Precisely! well put. It really baffles me when people forget to use common sense. If kessel had all of that and then still wasn't producing then crapping on him makes sense.

 

[Wendigo]

The points raised here on either side of the fence are great, and I've been on the fence with Kessel. He's always done as asked with regards to production (except recently), he's not a two-way forward, and most pure goal scorers have problems with this. He has had games where he actually gets his stick into plays defensively, but these are rare; it does show he can do it, which is part of the frustration I'm sure.

I am siding with the "ship-him-off" side of late however: his play in the past month seems as if he's phoning it in every game, and his indifference exemplified in his comments this week on whether he could be traded told me it's time to end the Kessel chapter once and for all (i.e. "if it's not here, it's not here"). He gets awarded $8M a year and that's his response? Basically a few thousand shy of $100,000 per game...I can't even fathom some of the players I grew up watching coming up with a response like that: Gilmour, Clark, Sundin. It's not the attitude I want in that dressing room; I'll say thanks for his great play if he goes, with all due respect.

 

[Daisy Jane]

The points raised here on either side of the fence are great, and I've been on the fence with Kessel. He's always done as asked with regards to production (except recently), he's not a two-way forward, and most pure goal scorers have problems with this. He has had games where he actually gets his stick into plays defensively, but these are rare; it does show he can do it, which is part of the frustration I'm sure.

I am siding with the "ship-him-off" side of late however: his play in the past month seems as if he's phoning it in every game, and his indifference exemplified in his comments this week on whether he could be traded told me it's time to end the Kessel chapter once and for all (i.e. "if it's not here, it's not here"). He gets awarded $8M a year and that's his response? Basically a few thousand shy of $100,000 per game...I can't even fathom some of the players I grew up watching coming up with a response like that: Gilmour, Clark, Sundin. It's not the attitude I want in that dressing room; I'll say thanks for his great play if he goes, with all due respect.

i'm not going to slam Kessel for seeing where the writing on the wall is.
Sundin refused to go (which hurt us)
and Tucker basically said if you want me gone, buy me out. (which is what we had to do).

Kessel flat out saying "if it's not here, it's not here, I'll go where they want me to go." shows that he gets the business side of sports and won't be a [bad word] about it - to which, i respect a lot.

 

[Daisy Jane]

people crapping on Kessel should be ashamed of themselves

Because, why?

He's the most convenient scapegoat (alongside Dion) and people just run away with it.

Some people refuse to look at facts for what they are. Phil has never played with a #1C, a #1D, or even another top-liner. Some people look at Phil and his 8$ cap hit and say "he's bad in corners and bad defensively TRADE HIM!.."

Taking a real look at our forward situation, what's really the problem here? Having a point-per-game scorer at 8M$ or having 15M$ combined cap hit tied up in pure mediocrity? (Bozak, Clarkson, Lupul).

Bozak sucks. and I want him gone. I think he is lazy, and rides off Phil's highs, and as much as I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, which I give everyone, - it is evident that he is a Lazy so and so, and I'm glad that he's being traded.

If I close my eyes and wish really, really hard, Clarkson will never have existed in the Leafs stratosphere.

Lupul's main problem is that he gets hurt. I would actually would like to see what would have happened if Kessel/Lupul had stayed together and JVR had been on Kadri's wing what would have happened. but Lupul is crap defensively, and I'm not going to shed tears if we trade him or not because if I wait a month he'll be gone for another month anyway.

Kessel playing with mediocre players doesn't justify the fact that Kessel's own individual play minus the point production. sucks.

to which

Precisely! well put. It really baffles me when people forget to use common sense. If kessel had all of that and then still wasn't producing then crapping on him makes sense.

it's not a 'precisely." to me that is an excuse.

Bozak, Lupul JVR, Santa Claus whomever, isn't preventing Kessel from playing like he gives a crap. and I have to make this crystal clear. I am not blaming Kessel for the reason that we suck. We suck. I'm not blaming Kessel for anything.

Again. if people want to break it down, or pm me and we can have a discussion about why Kessel works for the Leafs and it makes sense, i will publicly announce that I was wrong, and I think kessel will stay, I'm girl enough to do that.

But from where I am standing, once again, basically every single person who doesn't like Kessel, needs to be ashamed, and just be quiet, because he scores goals. We'll ignore every single other aspect that is wrong with him [that isn't even dependent on the mediocre talent that he plays with (because that's not his fault) - but things that he can control and that he can fix].

so. basically. what most people want everyone else to do is be happy with

30+ goals. 80 + points. and be happy with the bare minimum because "I score goals, what more do you want from me?"

 

[Wendigo]

i'm not going to slam Kessel for seeing where the writing on the wall is.
Sundin refused to go (which hurt us)
and Tucker basically said if you want me gone, buy me out. (which is what we had to do).

Kessel flat out saying "if it's not here, it's not here, I'll go where they want me to go." shows that he gets the business side of sports and won't be a [bad word] about it - to which, i respect a lot.

That may be the case (and the question was a stupid and somewhat loaded question--no surprise in Toronto media), but there are still better responses (e.g.. "It's not my decision, that's up to management") -- if he understands the business, he ought to understand the market he's in, and moreso the context whereupon that comment was made (in a sliding team that's basically sucked and is lacking leadership and committment), where such perceived indifference could be inflammatory. If it's a business ended quote--he ought to understand that optics is part of any business, especially in sports and entertainment.

And that doesn't take away his lackadaisical non-committed play which just happens to fit perfectly with that apparent level of indifference. If he understands business, great! But seemingly he doesn't seem to understand what he's supposed to bring to the ice for that kind of cap hit. Does that get the same kind of respect? Not from me of late. And I've been a long time supporter--he's a great talent. I think he'd do better elsewhere.

 

[Apotheosis]

Apparently Florida might have interest. Kessel's term (the fact that he's signed long term), his production is market value for a PPG player at 8 million and he would boost their offence tremendously and playing with a defensive centre like Barkov would work wonders. Plus, Barkov can feed off Kessel and boost his own offence.

A lot of Panthers fans obviously saying Barkov, Ekblad and Bjustad are off the table. So that leaves with a potential deal like Huberdeau+Gudbrandson and a 1st round pick.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Kessel flat out saying "if it's not here, it's not here, I'll go where they want me to go." shows that he gets the business side of sports and won't be a [bad word] about it - to which, i respect a lot.

The fact that Glenn Healy decided to criticize Kessel for saying proves that the media is looking for any excuses to bash him.

How is that any different compared to what Franson said a few days ago about possibly being traded when he was asked about the trade deadline or any other player understanding the NHL is also a business where players know they can be traded at anytime.

 

[Daisy Jane]

The fact that Glenn Healy decided to criticize Kessel for saying proves that the media is looking for any excuses to bash him.

How is that any different compared to what Franson said a few days ago about possibly being traded when he was asked about the trade deadline or any other player understanding the NHL is also a business where players know they can be traded at anytime.

exactly, and healy was wrong (per usual) in that regards

 

[Snow Dog]

people crapping on Kessel should be ashamed of themselves

Kessel should be ashamed of his dedication to his sport.

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

I love Kessel and think he's a very good weapon in the NHL, but if the team only plans to be a contender in 5 years, Phil will be 32 at that time. Will he still be a very good weapon? If management comes to the idea that he won't be, then they should trade him now.

 

[hullsy47]

Apparently Florida might have interest. Kessel's term (the fact that he's signed long term), his production is market value for a PPG player at 8 million and he would boost their offence tremendously and playing with a defensive centre like Barkov would work wonders. Plus, Barkov can feed off Kessel and boost his own offence.

A lot of Panthers fans obviously saying Barkov, Ekblad and Bjustad are off the table. So that leaves with a potential deal like Huberdeau+Gudbrandson and a 1st round pick.

lol no barkov or bjustad no kessel

 

[LolungoReboundo]

lol no barkov or bjustad no kessel

lol yeah wtf...give us a top 5 scorer over the last 4 years for our left overs!!!

 

[Stephen]

people crapping on Kessel should be ashamed of themselves

Oh yes, the demigod that is that 30 goal scorer, how dare we be upset with his lack of anything other than goals...