Salary Cap: Phil Kessel and Salary Retention Question

[gamer1035]

My memory is failing me. What kind of idiot retained when trading Phil Kessel?

That was Dubas when he was assistant gm (and no gm)....

Well, on the plus side he gifted kessel and Pitt a cup. Also, that cap space would've been added onto Marner's contract anyways if it wasn't used for Kessel's retention (judging why Dubas' negotiation skills)

 

[gamer1035]

Yikes this revisionist history. Retaining on Kessel was 100% the right move at the time and was the only way a trade for him was gonna work. He had just come off a 25 goal, 61 point season in 82 games, his worst season as a leaf yet it was the 1st year of his big pay raise from $5.4M to $8M.

To put his $8M in perspective, that was 12.44% of the cap at the time, which is the equivalent of $10.1M today. He was absolute ass that year and with the way we fell from a playoff spot to bottom 4 in the league, it was clear he had to go and there was no way that was going to happen without some retention, nobody was going to trade for a 60 point scorer making $8 million a year.

He was ass in the regular season with Pittsburgh too but on a much better team, played arguably worse actually than he did his last year in Toronto. Only then when the playoffs started and Pittsburgh made a run, Kessel rediscovered his game.

No it wasn't. I remember being angry about it at the time.

 

[MapleLeafs9]

No it wasn't. I remember being angry about it at the time.

Ok? Doesn't change anything just because you felt angry lol

 

[Stephen]

Yikes this revisionist history. Retaining on Kessel was 100% the right move at the time and was the only way a trade for him was gonna work. He had just come off a 25 goal, 61 point season in 82 games, his worst season as a leaf yet it was the 1st year of his big pay raise from $5.4M to $8M.

In 2015, retaining on Kessel appeared to be the right move based on the perceived decline Kessel was headed towards, so the Leafs had to spend money to get something done. But I’m hindsight it also set a pattern where Dubas appears to always spend the premium to get things done. So it’s not clear.

 

[AvroArrow]

Actually, there's a lot of blame to go around with the Kessel deal. Dubas made it, and it was a bad deal, but it's not like he had a lot of options, since Burke wisely gave Kessel a NMC, and then Babcock loudly stated he wouldn't work with Kessel and wanted him GONE immediately, leaving the Leafs in a situation where everyone knew they were moving Kessel, and the teams they could deal with were limited. Rutherford knew this, which is why the Leafs ended up not getting as much for Kessel as they should have, AND they ended up having to retain.

I didn't mind the return tbh. Kapanen was a 1st round pick and very promising prospect, and he's turned into an NHL regular. + a late 1st. Just the 1.2 really hurt us. Elite players shouldn't be retained on. 6.8 for a prime Kessel is an absolute steal.

 

[MapleLeafs9]

I didn't mind the return tbh. Kapanen was a 1st round pick and very promising prospect, and he's turned into an NHL regular. + a late 1st. Just the 1.2 really hurt us. Elite players shouldn't be retained on. 6.8 for a prime Kessel is an absolute steal.

So do you think we should've kept him? Because we aren't trading him without retaining after his disaster of a final season here. Also, where has the 1.2M hurt us? I can't think of 1 significant player we've had to trade or let go to free agency yet because PHIL KESSEL'S 1.2M RETAINED CAP HIT was there. Kadri maybe? I don't think he was a cap casualty though and more just we had to move on after his 2 consecutive playoff suspensions. But he's been doing the same bullshit in Colorado he did here anyway?

 

[AvroArrow]

So do you think we should've kept him? Because we aren't trading him without retaining after his disaster of a final season here. Also, where has the 1.2M hurt us? I can't think of 1 significant player we've had to trade or let go to free agency yet because PHIL KESSEL'S 1.2M RETAINED CAP HIT was there. Kadri maybe? I don't think he was a cap casualty though and more just we had to move on after his 2 consecutive playoff suspensions. But he's been doing the same bullshit in Colorado he did here anyway?

No trading him was the right move, we needed a real rebuild. Retaining on his deal was not.

Imagine we had an extra 1.2M this year to get a player not named Joe Thornton.

61 points in a full season is FAR from a disaster. It's a down year, calling it a disaster is a complete over exaggeration. He was widely regarded as a top 5 RW during the time of his trade.

 

[MapleLeafs9]

No trading him was the right move, we needed a real rebuild. Retaining on his deal was not.

Imagine we had an extra 1.2M this year to get a player not named Joe Thornton.

61 points in a full season is FAR from a disaster. It's a down year, calling it a disaster is a complete over exaggeration. He was widely regarded as a top 5 RW during the time of his trade.

He had an 8 team NTC. He probably gave 8 teams that were very unrealistic trade spots other than PIT. I don't think calling his season a disaster is an exaggeration at all, like I pointed out earlier, his $8M at the time is the equivalent of a $10.13M contract today. Would you trade for a $10.13M 60 point winger today without retaining? I wouldn't, especially if I'm trading picks and prospects and not sending salary back for him.

It wasn't just his point totals either, his advanced analytics (which were starting to blow up and teams were paying more attention to around that time) were completely shit. With the context of how the team was trending, after 2013 loss to Boston, the regular season collapse in 2014, then the collapse again before we fired Carlyle, it was absolutely a disaster.

 

[Garthinater]

Yikes this revisionist history. Retaining on Kessel was 100% the right move at the time and was the only way a trade for him was gonna work. He had just come off a 25 goal, 61 point season in 82 games, his worst season as a leaf yet it was the 1st year of his big pay raise from $5.4M to $8M.

To put his $8M in perspective, that was 12.44% of the cap at the time, which is the equivalent of $10.1M today. He was absolute ass that year and with the way we fell from a playoff spot to bottom 4 in the league, it was clear he had to go and there was no way that was going to happen without some retention, nobody was going to trade for a 60 point scorer making $8 million a year.

He was ass in the regular season with Pittsburgh too but on a much better team, played arguably worse actually than he did his last year in Toronto. Only then when the playoffs started and Pittsburgh made a run, Kessel rediscovered his game.

Lou traded phaneuf without retaining anything. Many thought that was impossible.

Dubas has shown to be weak during trades.

 

[AvroArrow]

He had an 8 team NTC. He probably gave 8 teams that were very unrealistic trade spots other than PIT. I don't think calling his season a disaster is an exaggeration at all, like I pointed out earlier, his $8M at the time is the equivalent of a $10.13M contract today. Would you trade for a $10.13M 60 point winger today without retaining? I wouldn't, especially if I'm trading picks and prospects and not sending salary back for him.

It wasn't just his point totals either, his advanced analytics (which were starting to blow up and teams were paying more attention to around that time) were completely shit. With the context of how the team was trending, after 2013 loss to Boston, the regular season collapse in 2014, then the collapse again before we fired Carlyle, it was absolutely a disaster.

And that same winger was a consistent 80 points, PPG player the 3 seasons prior. Something you keep neglecting, not to mention playing for a team/coach that was intentionally tanking.

Quite clearly an outlier year as he went on to continue being an elite player in Pittsburgh helping them win back to back cups and even having his career best 94 points there.

 

[Gallagbi]

And that same winger was a consistent 80 points, PPG player the 3 seasons prior. Something you keep neglecting, not to mention playing for a team/coach that was intentionally tanking.

Quite clearly an outlier year as he went on to continue being an elite player in Pittsburgh helping them win back to back cups and even having his career best 94 points there.

They weren't actually. They fired their coach to turn things around and push for the playoffs. The team played terrible though and sold off assets at the deadline, but the plan wasn't to tank that year.

We shouldn't have had to retain IMO, but Kessel had a reputation around the league and coming off a brutal season where he looked to be quitting on a team didn't reflect well.

 

[PromisedLand]

what if we ask zona to retain signficant cap hit but pay him full salary on their behalf. i.e. get Kessel for like 2.5 AAV but we pay the full salary. Is this allowed?

Kessel on the PP instad of Marner and then on the third line playing RW might be beneficial

 

[IPS]

Lou traded phaneuf without retaining anything

... because of the amount of salary he took back in the trade.

 

[MapleLeafs9]

Lou traded phaneuf without retaining anything. Many thought that was impossible.

Dubas has shown to be weak during trades.

This trade was purely a money move for the Senators not a cap move. Both teams were in no cap trouble at the time and Ottawa did not want Cowen and Michalek's contracts, Cowen was sent to Robidas Island immediately then bought out, and Michalek was sent to Robidas Island after spending sometime with the Marlies in 16/17. The most expensive years of Phaneuf's contract signing bonuses and salary wise was before he was traded to Ottawa.

It's the same way Nonis was able to trade Clarkson for Horton without retaining. Money moves from the small market teams not cap moves.

 

[MapleLeafs9]

And that same winger was a consistent 80 points, PPG player the 3 seasons prior. Something you keep neglecting, not to mention playing for a team/coach that was intentionally tanking.

Quite clearly an outlier year as he went on to continue being an elite player in Pittsburgh helping them win back to back cups and even having his career best 94 points there.

I'm not neglecting, I responded to that earlier here:

The NHL is a "what have you done for me lately?" league. Especially when it comes to trades.

You can be a Hindsight Harold all you want, but retaining was the move at the time, we had to do it. Pittsburgh gambled on Kessel and won big time, but at the time of the trade, Pittsburgh or the other 7 teams he gave on his NTC were not going to acquire him without retention.

 

[justashadowof]

Yikes this revisionist history. Retaining on Kessel was 100% the right move at the time and was the only way a trade for him was gonna work. He had just come off a 25 goal, 61 point season in 82 games, his worst season as a leaf yet it was the 1st year of his big pay raise from $5.4M to $8M.

To put his $8M in perspective, that was 12.44% of the cap at the time, which is the equivalent of $10.1M today. He was absolute ass that year and with the way we fell from a playoff spot to bottom 4 in the league, it was clear he had to go and there was no way that was going to happen without some retention, nobody was going to trade for a 60 point scorer making $8 million a year.

He was ass in the regular season with Pittsburgh too but on a much better team, played arguably worse actually than he did his last year in Toronto. Only then when the playoffs started and Pittsburgh made a run, Kessel rediscovered his game.

And you know this how?

 

[MapleLeafs9]

And you know this how?

Oh idk maybe the fact we traded him by retaining salary instead of trading him by not retaining salary.

 

[justashadowof]

Oh idk maybe the fact we traded him by retaining salary instead of trading him by not retaining salary.

Just like it's impossible that Mitch Marner could have signed for less than $10.9M aav. <taps galaxy brain>

 

[keonsbitterness]

I don't get the outrage over this. $1.2M is probably below league average for dead cap space. Check out the 20-21 Rangers for a truly scary number.

At least Kessel's dead cap is gone after 21-22.

 

[MapleLeafs9]

Just like it's impossible that Mitch Marner could have signed for less than $10.9M aav. <taps galaxy brain>

Kessel had his worst season as a Leaf, he also had an 8 team list of teams he could be traded to per his NTC, likely only contending teams already right up and close to the cap. It's easy to see the Leafs' hands were tied. I don't blame em either, Kessel was sickening to watch that year. He was done here.

 

[MapleLeafs9]

I don't get the outrage over this. $1.2M is probably below league average for dead cap space. Check out the 20-21 Rangers for a truly scary number.

At least Kessel's dead cap is gone after 21-22.

It has no impact at all. People are just still pissed at Dubas after the way the season ended and looking for anything to claw at.

It's pure revisionist history and 20/20 hindsight to be mad about this now lol

 

[ACC1224]

It has no impact at all. People are just still pissed at Dubas after the way the season ended and looking for anything to claw at.

It's pure revisionist history and 20/20 hindsight to be mad about this now lol

Many didn’t like it from the day it happened. Doesn’t mean they’re mad, they just have the same opinion.

 

[Menzinger]

Lou traded phaneuf without retaining anything. Many thought that was impossible.

He did so by taking back a huge amount of dead capspace (the Pens at the time weren't looking to do that, they weren't looking to shed guys like the Sens were)

 

[Menzinger]

The problem with these things is folks always paint them as a black v white scenario.

The Kessel trade wasn't great value for the type of player that Kessel was. I'm particular the retention and the Leafs giving up a pick in the deal

That said it was still 100% the right move to make at the time for signaling to the fans that a scorrched earth rebuild was happening and to formally get that started. Treading water for another season wasn't an option and Kessels goals would have hurt the Leafs draft position

 

[Leaf Fans]

No trading him was the right move, we needed a real rebuild. Retaining on his deal was not.

Imagine we had an extra 1.2M this year to get a player not named Joe Thornton.

61 points in a full season is FAR from a disaster. It's a down year, calling it a disaster is a complete over exaggeration. He was widely regarded as a top 5 RW during the time of his trade.

He wasn't top 5 on this board- he was a lazy hotdog eating locker room cancer. The retention is one thing, but the problem lies in signing him to an 8M contract with protection.