Salary Cap: Phil Kessel and Salary Retention Question

[Stephen]

Curious question for all the hardcore capologists out there, and hopefully the money guys at MLSE is reading this too, just food for thought:

Understanding that we hold a $1.2 million cap hit on salary retention from the 2015 Phil Kessel deal, would it hypothetically be possible for the Leafs to trade for Phil Kessel from Arizona, making the $8 million cap hit "whole," and then re-trade Phil Kessel back to Arizona to take the $8 million salary in full, thus wiping the original salary retention off the books?

Or as an alternative, when Arizona trades Kessel to us for the first time, they would take $1.2 million in salary, thus wiping it off our books.

Obviously the price for doing business would be the question of the cap hit, so maybe Arizona would hypothetically get a pick and a prospect, but just curious if this would be possible, or if the $1.2 million is dead space for the life of the contract.

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[LaPlante94]

tbh I'm not 100% sure but this is what I thought and I might be wrong. I think they could unless it's an expansion year. Again, don't take what I say as 100% correct, I just feel like that's what I heard/read the year Vegas was about to be created.

 

[Cor]

You can’t retain on a contract you hold. If you reacquire the players contract, you can no longer retain on said contract


However, that’s a basic view.

From me readings of the CBA, there’s nothing mentioned about whether detainment gets nullified if the contract is reacquired or not.

 

[diehardleafsfan9878]

This is of course ignoring the fact that it would be considered cap circumvention. The league will not allow a trade of player A from 1 team and back. All trades need to get approved and the league would block the second trade. This is a question I've asked before but never really got an answer for it. Cor's comment is probably the best you will get.

 

[Duke Silver]

(6) If an SPC is subject to more than one (1) Retained Salary Transaction, the second such Retained Salary Transaction may not add to, subtract from, or otherwise modify the obligations of the Club that initially agreed to retain a portion of the Averaged Amount and Salary and Bonuses of a Retained Salary SPC (i.e., the Club Trading the Player retains the amounts of its Retained Salary obligations for the life of the Retained Salary SPC).

 

[bentharbs]

Appreciation post for the last season w/ Phil on the books!

 

[Mess]

You can’t retain on a contract you hold. If you reacquire the players contract, you can no longer retain on said contract


However, that’s a basic view.

From me readings of the CBA, there’s nothing mentioned about whether detainment gets nullified if the contract is reacquired or not.

That makes logical sense though.

If Kessel were back on the Leafs there would be no need for salary retention on a contract you have, but then again it really wouldn't matter how it was shown as Leafs would be on the hook for both parts anyways, even if it was on Leafs cap as $6.8 mil contract + 1.2 mil retention = $8 mil

It would be the 2nd part of question if you could then trade him again if the contract was combined and get rid of the retention amount or if that retention amount once done is locked in stone, and I suspect the later is true.

 

[justashadowof]

My memory is failing me. What kind of idiot retained when trading Phil Kessel?

 

[Mess]

Appreciation post for the last season w/ Phil on the books!

Dubas doesn't get enough credit for that 7 years of $1.2 salary retention when he was interim GM and orchestrated that Kessel trade.

 

[Garthinater]

My memory is failing me. What kind of idiot retained when trading Phil Kessel?

Another negative for dubas.

Sucks at trades, terrible at signing rfa's, bad at assessing goalies, etc.

What is this guy good at?

 

[hotpaws]

Another negative for dubas.

Sucks at trades, terrible at signing rfa's, bad at assessing goalies, etc.

What is this guy good at?

bullshitting his way into jobs he's not qualified for ?

 

[AvroArrow]

My memory is failing me. What kind of idiot retained when trading Phil Kessel?

Retaining on a ppg winger who was top 5 in his position and helped the pens to back to back cups with a conn smythe worthy performance, LOL cannot believe we retained on his deal.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I am sure if it would have been possible that it would have been done already with Brandon Pridham

 

[Gallagbi]

I *thought* it was possible to reacquire then trade the full cap hit. Only person I can think of who would know is @mouser

Kessel has a $5M signing bonus this summer. Could be somewhat attractive to acquire, payout, then move at the high aav but low dollar figure. Doubt that happens, but it is a thought.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Retaining on a ppg winger who was top 5 in his position and helped the pens to back to back cups with a conn smythe worthy performance, LOL cannot believe we retained on his deal.

I am not a Dubas fan, but that is a disingenuous argument. At the time, Phil was a malcontent one dimensional winger who lead the team to quit on Peter Horachek. He was beyond awful in the second half of that season.

 

[AvroArrow]

I am not a Dubas fan, but that is a disingenuous argument. At the time, Phil was a malcontent one dimensional winger who lead the team to quit on Peter Horachek. He was beyond awful in the second half of that season.

Phil was never the issue. He was ppg over his last 3 seasons in Toronto. The best C we gave him in his tenure was freakin Bozak. Phil was great here, it was just obvious we couldn't win with that core and needed a rebuild, properly not Burkes idea of a rebuild.

The entire team was garbage with Horachek, it was a clear tanking year for us. Horachek was never actually expected to win, he was our tank commander behind the bench. Kessels best teammate was Lupul...or JVR. That entire team just sucked and with how bad the rest of the team was, he was STILL PPG.

 

[mouser]

I *thought* it was possible to reacquire then trade the full cap hit. Only person I can think of who would know is @mouser

Kessel has a $5M signing bonus this summer. Could be somewhat attractive to acquire, payout, then move at the high aav but low dollar figure. Doubt that happens, but it is a thought.

The CBA doesn't answer that question and it's never happened before to my knowledge.

If you asked me for my best guess I'd say the NHL would probably take the position that reacquiring Kessel would not wipe out the retained salary obligation.

 

[Kurtz]

I am not a Dubas fan, but that is a disingenuous argument. At the time, Phil was a malcontent one dimensional winger who lead the team to quit on Peter Horachek. He was beyond awful in the second half of that season.

Dubas wasn't the one who traded Phil, I think those posters are either kidding or are confused.

 

[Mess]

Dubas wasn't the one who traded Phil, I think those posters are either kidding or are confused.

Kyle Dubas on the Pittsburgh trade and 2015-16

Leafs assistant GM Kyle Dubas addressed the media on July 1 and discussed the club's trade with the Pittsburgh Penguins and other transactions. Here's what he had to say...

What made this the right combination of players in return for Kessel?

I think it was the quality of the prospects in our mind. Kapanen is a guy who was a first round pick last year — you don't get too attached to where they were picked in the draft — but he was a first round pick last year. Harrington is a player we charted, he had a real good year in the American League, his 10 games up with Pittsburgh he was really, really good by our measures in those games. We were happy to get Harrington obviously and also Kapanen, the first round pick last year.

Kyle Dubas on the Pittsburgh trade and 2015-16

 

[MapleLeafs9]

My memory is failing me. What kind of idiot retained when trading Phil Kessel?

Another negative for dubas.

Sucks at trades, terrible at signing rfa's, bad at assessing goalies, etc.

What is this guy good at?

Retaining on a ppg winger who was top 5 in his position and helped the pens to back to back cups with a conn smythe worthy performance, LOL cannot believe we retained on his deal.

Yikes this revisionist history. Retaining on Kessel was 100% the right move at the time and was the only way a trade for him was gonna work. He had just come off a 25 goal, 61 point season in 82 games, his worst season as a leaf yet it was the 1st year of his big pay raise from $5.4M to $8M.

To put his $8M in perspective, that was 12.44% of the cap at the time, which is the equivalent of $10.1M today. He was absolute ass that year and with the way we fell from a playoff spot to bottom 4 in the league, it was clear he had to go and there was no way that was going to happen without some retention, nobody was going to trade for a 60 point scorer making $8 million a year.

He was ass in the regular season with Pittsburgh too but on a much better team, played arguably worse actually than he did his last year in Toronto. Only then when the playoffs started and Pittsburgh made a run, Kessel rediscovered his game.

 

[AvroArrow]

Yikes this revisionist history. Retaining on Kessel was 100% the right move at the time and was the only way a trade for him was gonna work. He had just come off a 25 goal, 61 point season in 82 games, his worst season as a leaf yet it was the 1st year of his big pay raise from $5.4M to $8M.

To put his $8M in perspective, that was 12% of the cap at the time, which is the equivalent of $10.1M today. He was absolute ass that year and with the way we fell from a playoff spot to bottom 4 in the league, it was clear he had to go and there was no way that was going to happen without some retention, nobody was going to trade for a 60 point scorer making $8 million a year.

He was ass in the regular season with Pittsburgh too but on a much better team, played even worse actually than he did his last year in Toronto. Only then when the playoffs started and Pittsburgh made a run, Kessel rediscovered his game.

And he had 80 in 82 the season before, 52 in 48 the year before that, and 82 in 82 before that.

 

[Kurtz]

Kyle Dubas on the Pittsburgh trade and 2015-16

Leafs assistant GM Kyle Dubas addressed the media on July 1 and discussed the club's trade with the Pittsburgh Penguins and other transactions. Here's what he had to say...

What made this the right combination of players in return for Kessel?

I think it was the quality of the prospects in our mind. Kapanen is a guy who was a first round pick last year — you don't get too attached to where they were picked in the draft — but he was a first round pick last year. Harrington is a player we charted, he had a real good year in the American League, his 10 games up with Pittsburgh he was really, really good by our measures in those games. We were happy to get Harrington obviously and also Kapanen, the first round pick last year.

Kyle Dubas on the Pittsburgh trade and 2015-16

"Leafs assistant GM Kyle Dubas addressed the media on July 1 and discussed the club's trade with the Pittsburgh Penguins and other transactions"

 

[MapleLeafs9]

And he had 80 in 82 the season before, 52 in 48 the year before that, and 82 in 82 before that.

The NHL is a "what have you done for me lately?" league. Especially when it comes to trades.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Yikes this revisionist history. Retaining on Kessel was 100% the right move at the time and was the only way a trade for him was gonna work. He had just come off a 25 goal, 61 point season in 82 games, his worst season as a leaf yet it was the 1st year of his big pay raise from $5.4M to $8M.

To put his $8M in perspective, that was 12.44% of the cap at the time, which is the equivalent of $10.1M today. He was absolute ass that year and with the way we fell from a playoff spot to bottom 4 in the league, it was clear he had to go and there was no way that was going to happen without some retention, nobody was going to trade for a 60 point scorer making $8 million a year.

He was ass in the regular season with Pittsburgh too but on a much better team, played arguably worse actually than he did his last year in Toronto. Only then when the playoffs started and Pittsburgh made a run, Kessel rediscovered his game.

Not to mention he had an NTC that he specifically structured so that there was only one or two teams he could go to that were interested and could afford him.

 

[Lightsol]

Phil was never the issue. He was ppg over his last 3 seasons in Toronto. The best C we gave him in his tenure was freakin Bozak. Phil was great here, it was just obvious we couldn't win with that core and needed a rebuild, properly not Burkes idea of a rebuild.

The entire team was garbage with Horachek, it was a clear tanking year for us. Horachek was never actually expected to win, he was our tank commander behind the bench. Kessels best teammate was Lupul...or JVR. That entire team just sucked and with how bad the rest of the team was, he was STILL PPG.

Actually, there's a lot of blame to go around with the Kessel deal. Dubas made it, and it was a bad deal, but it's not like he had a lot of options, since Burke wisely gave Kessel a NMC, and then Babcock loudly stated he wouldn't work with Kessel and wanted him GONE immediately, leaving the Leafs in a situation where everyone knew they were moving Kessel, and the teams they could deal with were limited. Rutherford knew this, which is why the Leafs ended up not getting as much for Kessel as they should have, AND they ended up having to retain.