Prospect Info: Phantoms (AHL), Reading Royals (ECHL), NCAA, Jrs., Int'l, etc. (Mar.-Apr. edition)

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BernieParent

In misery of redwings of suckage for a long time
Mar 13, 2009
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To avoid this page turning into an essay contest I'll just reply to a couple points.



I know a lot of people believe this but I disagree. I don't think teams necessarily figured Ghost out and I think we are seeing that with his play the last few weeks or so. Ghost is a player that feeds off confidence. When he's in that zone, he's extremely difficult to contain- when he's not thinking and he's just playing. After a good start to the season he hit a rough patch. Nothing was going in offensively and every other shot was going in on the defensive side. He went from one of the "luckiest" players in the league last year to one of the "unluckiest". And then came the healthy scratches and getting called out for his play away from the puck. Everything just kind of snowballed and I don't quite think he knew how to react. To me it looked like that had an effect on his game. He looked like a kid that was afraid to make a mistake and that's the last thing you want with a player like him.

He looks more like the player we saw last year so hopefully those stretch of games earlier in the year were just a blip on the radar. Oh and getting a new partner will probably help him too. Outside of a few games with "Good MDZ" last year, he's played with absolute slop in the NHL.


They should drill defensive fundamentals. You have to get the puck back and you have to prevent scoring chances. I just think some coaches get carried away and force a young talented defenseman to play a game that is not tailored to their strengths. There are plenty examples of players in this league having success playing the modern or "unconventional" way. Show them where to be when the other team has the puck, get out of the way, and don't be afraid to play your best players in close games because they might make a mistake (because they might just make a play too coach).

I believe strongly that defense at the NHL level is more about the team than the individual and offense at the NHL level is more about the individuals than it is about the scheme. John Hynes can get the Devils to play defense, but he can't get them to score goals because they lack skill. Sure there are times when a player is going to be asked to win a one-on-one matchup or win a 50/50 puck, but for the most part, if you have a good system in place, you can prevent goals.

A guy like Nick Schultz is someone most would describe as a good defender in the literal sense. But he's most likely going to find himself out of the league next year or in training camp on a tryout deal trying to make another club. Why? Because he can't make enough plays with the puck. He's a guy in the critical situations of the game, the best realistic outcome is that the other team doesn't score, much like with PEB and VDV up front.

You can always shelter a poor defender against top lines, but you cannot shelter a poor offensive player away from the puck. The game revolves around it. You have to be able to handle and make plays with it.

One thing I'll never understand is when people talk about forwards it's always about what they bring offensively and rarely what they lack on the defensive end. Why are defensemen different? They aren't goalies. Their job isn't to just prevent goals. They have sticks in their hands too, they just occupy different areas of the ice. Travis Konecny for example, is not what I would call a good defensive player, but he generates a lot of offense and I would say his net impact this year is a positive.


They do have a nice collection of different skill sets in the system that they should be able to mix and match with some success in the future. You have Provorov the solid all-around guy that can do a bit of everything. You have Ghost with the creative puck handling and bomb of a shot. You have Sanheim, also an offensive guy, but with a completely different style than Ghost. Morin is the low maintenance defender with a rare blend of height, weight, and speed. Myers is a bit of a cross between Sanheim and Morin. And maybe Hagg can fill out the bottom of the roster.

Thanks again for your reply. I'll begin with Part 1 of my 11-part dissertation on your points here. :sarcasm:

Just quickly, I am trying to bring to mind some exact instances where Gostisbehere tried the skates out in either direction fake to get around a forechecker and was neutralized because the forechecker took the body. Dementia is an awful thing. I can hear (I believe) Ray Ferraro commenting in one game how the forecheckers were zeroing in on Gostisbehere body on body to minimize the deking.

I think we are of the same mind about drilling fundamentals without draining offensive talent. That wasn't at all what I was implying in my posts; rather it was a rebuttal of what I thought was being said about "Why teach defensive game to offensively gifted Dmen?" If I oversimplified, my apologies.

One thing I'll never understand is when people talk about forwards it's always about what they bring offensively and rarely what they lack on the defensive end. Why are defensemen different? They aren't goalies. Their job isn't to just prevent goals. They have sticks in their hands too, they just occupy different areas of the ice. Travis Konecny for example, is not what I would call a good defensive player, but he generates a lot of offense and I would say his net impact this year is a positive.

I think this is the final hinge in our debate. As I said previously, the defensemen are more responsible for defense than the forward because of their positioning. They are closest to the net and high-danger spots in all but the oddest of D-zone coverage. As such, they would be among the last to step up and join a rush in usual circumstances. What makes players like Sanheim, Gostisbehere, and Myers special is that their speed can get them up into a rush faster than most.

And of course we talk about the defensive play of forwards. Sean Couturier is exhibits A through M.

Anyway, I'll keep down the word count. Thanks very much for an interesting back-and-forth.
 

Captain Dave Poulin

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Apr 30, 2015
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Very good discussion, guys. I, for one, hope that no one (within reason lol) is put off by word count - some of the best posts on here are ones that seem to go on forever. If you are a millennial, I encourage you to get over your fear of a "wall of text." :naughty:

EDIT: I just realized that some of the worst posts on here also go on forever, so just ignore what I said and rock on with your bad selves.
 

deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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One thing I'll never understand is when people talk about forwards it's always about what they bring offensively and rarely what they lack on the defensive end. Why are defensemen different?

They aren't, there's just a different balance.

Forwards who aren't responsible defensively hurt both the defense and the offense, because their teammates have to be less aggressive to cover for their mistakes. +/- is a crude proxy, E +/- and GF% stats try to give a better sense, and relative stats for these measures try to pinpoint the responsibility for defensive lapses.

The reason to coach defense into offensive players isn't to make them automations, but to ensure that the net impact of their offense isn't negative, you win by scoring more goals than your opponent, not merely by scoring more goals.
 

TheKingPin

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Nov 16, 2005
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I agree with both sides on points. But I definitely agree that a team with a good goals against is a team with a god system. Not just good players. That system can still be very offensive minded. But you need smart players to run a good system. You can't have schenn not getting it in deep on a lone man rush. Or schenn taking from the circles back the blue line into traffic for an easy turnover. We should trade schenn...
 

Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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Bob Rotruck says Leier and Hagg skating in red no-contact jerseys in practice.
 

renberg

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But you need smart players to run a good system. You can't have schenn not getting it in deep on a lone man rush. Or schenn taking from the circles back the blue line into traffic for an easy turnover. We should trade schenn...
But, but, but Schenn scores on the PP! :sarcasm: I agree, Schenn must go. He's typical of a guy who was more physically mature than most of the competition that he faced when he was in junior hockey and when the rest of the guys caught up to him that way, he lost his edge in play. Speed? nope. Defensive ability? Nope. Ice vision? Nope. Hockey IQ? Low. Lets pay him over $5M per. Not so smart. Unfortunately Schenn is what he is and is never going to improve because he doesn't have the ability to do that. I'd even consider exposing him in the ED in order to shed that contact.
 

Curufinwe

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Is Schenn on pace to set a record for biggest gap between PP goals and ES goals? Currently it's 15-5.
 

LegionOfDoom91

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Jan 25, 2013
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schenn.jpg


That really looks like the face of a physically mature 17-18 year old. Schenn was also an August birthday making him one of the more younger players in his draft year.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
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Pennsylvania
Do people not realize that Schenn is our 2nd best goal scorer?

I know we like posting things without thinking, but that seems like something to keep in mind.
 

JojoTheWhale

CORN BOY
May 22, 2008
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Is there anyone who hasn't been suggested to leave exposed at this point among the eligible? Gudas maybe? Anyone want to stake claim to that particularly flavor of lunacy?
 

BernieParent

In misery of redwings of suckage for a long time
Mar 13, 2009
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But, but, but Schenn scores on the PP! :sarcasm: I agree, Schenn must go. He's typical of a guy who was more physically mature than most of the competition that he faced when he was in junior hockey and when the rest of the guys caught up to him that way, he lost his edge in play. Speed? nope. Defensive ability? Nope. Ice vision? Nope. Hockey IQ? Low. Lets pay him over $5M per. Not so smart. Unfortunately Schenn is what he is and is never going to improve because he doesn't have the ability to do that. I'd even consider exposing him in the ED in order to shed that contact.

I just can't decide which to post, so I'll leave this here: http://giphy.com/search/facepalm.
 

BernieParent

In misery of redwings of suckage for a long time
Mar 13, 2009
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They aren't, there's just a different balance.

Forwards who aren't responsible defensively hurt both the defense and the offense, because their teammates have to be less aggressive to cover for their mistakes. +/- is a crude proxy, E +/- and GF% stats try to give a better sense, and relative stats for these measures try to pinpoint the responsibility for defensive lapses.

The reason to coach defense into offensive players isn't to make them automations, but to ensure that the net impact of their offense isn't negative, you win by scoring more goals than your opponent, not merely by scoring more goals.

I agree. This is one of the defining points, for me, of a bad, good, or great coach; ie, how can he help a player to improve on a fundamental while encouraging a plus skill. If we have coaches who are turning all of our shining D prospects into Hal Gill, all is lost.
 

deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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You trade Schenn if you can get value, otherwise you have to find him linemates who can protect him and let him do his thing. I mean Hartnell wasn't exactly Mr Defense in his time with the Flyers. Every team seems to have one or two of these guys who get paid to score.

Schenn was pretty good at ES last year, so it may just be finding the right niche for him, obviously, center is NOT it. I think RW with a center who can cover for him (Couts?) and maybe better defensemen who can let him just set up to snipe - heck, Jagr's been doing that for a decade?
 

BernieParent

In misery of redwings of suckage for a long time
Mar 13, 2009
24,714
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Chasm of Sar (north of Montreal, Qc)
I agree with both sides on points. But I definitely agree that a team with a good goals against is a team with a god system. Not just good players. That system can still be very offensive minded. But you need smart players to run a good system. You can't have schenn not getting it in deep on a lone man rush. Or schenn taking from the circles back the blue line into traffic for an easy turnover. We should trade schenn...

It's both for me. You establish a system to work in the standard ebb-and-flow of a game but it should have the latitude for moments of individual creativity.
 

Cyborg LeClair

Thank You Mr. Snider
Nov 18, 2011
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I wish we had a way to peer into all the alternate universes where crazy thoughts actually transpire. In some universe we leave Schenn exposed in the ED and he goes on to score 30g 30a for Vegas and the response is just "well, he didnt do that here, he needed a change of scenery, this always happens to the Flyers".
 

Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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He kind of did score 30-30 last year, so we don't even need to do that. I get frustrated with aspects of Schenn's play, but he's miles away from being a cap dump.

You trade Schenn if you can get value, otherwise you have to find him linemates who can protect him and let him do his thing.

Raffl/Read-Couturier-Schenn
 
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MacDonald4MVP

Registered User
May 7, 2016
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I wish we had a way to peer into all the alternate universes where crazy thoughts actually transpire. In some universe we leave Schenn exposed in the ED and he goes on to score 30g 30a for Vegas and the response is just "well, he didnt do that here, he needed a change of scenery, this always happens to the Flyers".

Didn't he score that just last year?
 

BernieParent

In misery of redwings of suckage for a long time
Mar 13, 2009
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Chasm of Sar (north of Montreal, Qc)
He kind of did score 30-30 last year, so we don't even need to do that. I get frustrated with aspects of Schenn's play, but he's miles away from being a cap dump.



Raffl/Read-Couturier-Schenn

I'd definitely choose a switching-to-LW Read over Raffl. His contribution to the line gives a better puck-carrying option over Raffl, he is more defensively responsible than Raffl, and Couturier would then have a couple of good shooters.
 

renberg

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I just can't decide which to post, so I'll leave this here: http://giphy.com/search/facepalm.
Its easy for fans to rip on AMac for his bad play and try to find ways to rid him and his salary from the roster. Exactly how much better than his play has Schenn's been? You can face palm all you want but Schenn is a drag on any line on which he plays and most of the time that he is on the ice. If that's a good use of $5M cap space, its lost on me.
 

BernieParent

In misery of redwings of suckage for a long time
Mar 13, 2009
24,714
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Chasm of Sar (north of Montreal, Qc)
Its easy for fans to rip on AMac for his bad play and try to find ways to rid him and his salary from the roster. Exactly how much better than his play has Schenn's been? You can face palm all you want but Schenn is a drag on any line on which he plays and most of the time that he is on the ice. If that's a good use of $5M cap space, its lost on me.

I wouldn't be averse to trading him for a quality return, given his limitations. But exposing him on the ED would just be silly.
 

renberg

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I wouldn't be averse to trading him for a quality return, given his limitations. But exposing him on the ED would just be silly.
If you could find a team that would give you something of value in return, sure a trade would be ideal. You just think that the rest of the league is on to what Schenn is right now and his value. We see it so they most as well.
One would like to think that he'd work to find a way to improve his game but I don't see it. He hasn't done it yet. Now he has his money and looks content with his own play. The five million that he draws in salary could be used in signing a FA that would have more value than Schenn.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
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Its easy for fans to rip on AMac for his bad play and try to find ways to rid him and his salary from the roster. Exactly how much better than his play has Schenn's been? You can face palm all you want but Schenn is a drag on any line on which he plays and most of the time that he is on the ice. If that's a good use of $5M cap space, its lost on me.

People need to realize that players are paid for many things....but points does usually equal higher pay....REGARDLESS how you get them.

Schenn is paid to be a 50+ point guy. 5 million is the going rate for that. Whereas someone like Couts is NOT paid for points, he is paid for his defense 1st. As far as value goes, I would take all day over Schenn regardless of points, but Schenn gets paid more due to points.

You can't just ignore his PP goals and points. They all count. Do I wish he would contribute more? For sure. But he is not overpaid and CERTAINLY is not a cash dump that should be left unprotected in the ED.
 

renberg

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You just can't overlook all of the deficiencies in play that Schenn has. So what if he score 50-60 its if he gives up more points while he is on the ice? Most of his goals are on the PP. Yes, he did score them but there is nothing to say that someone else, given the amount of PP time that he gets could not replicate it. Who that may be, I'm not sure but another player in the $5M per category might-Ex.: Andrew Ladd was a FA last summer; signed for relatively the same money as Schenn. Both play LW. The Flyers couldn't sign Ladd because they re-upped Schenn. I'll take Ladd even though its a longer deal.
 
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