Prospect Info: Phantoms (AHL), Reading Royals (ECHL), NCAA, Jrs., Int'l, etc. (Mar.-Apr. edition)

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MiamiScreamingEagles

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Flyerfan13

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Looking forward to the kids playing for the phantoms in the playoffs.if or when lindblom and Friedman sign their elcs and what college free agent players we sign if any.
 

BernieParent

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Picking up the previous conversation about teaching defense to offensive Dmen, I think this is essential in the player's maturing game. One thing we have seen with Gostisbehere is the degree to which plays that lead to highlight-reel goals in the minor leagues get shut down by NHL opponents, especially once they have accumulated some game video of you. I don't want Gostisbehere to turn into another Marc-André Bergeron.

Plus, effective defense leads to offense. Get the puck off the onrushing opponent and turn it around for an odd-man rush the other way. This isn't the NFL when the defense forces a turnover, the play stops, and the offense comes onto the field.

For Sanheim, I believe that the difference between 1st and 2nd lines will be how tough he plays defensively. Not fighting or hitting tough necessarily, but smart active defense where he uses his stick and his body to shut down opposing puck carriers, and where he plays positionally sound defense. If he is playing with Provorov, for example, he can afford to cheat a bit more but I don't foresee him sticking to a top pair by playing rover all game. I want my top defensive pairing to have a well rounded game.

Comparisons with Paul Coffey are of little value because of the drastic changes from the NHL at his time, particularly with respect to the unprecedented offense of the Oilers at the time.
 

FLYguy3911

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Picking up the previous conversation about teaching defense to offensive Dmen, I think this is essential in the player's maturing game. One thing we have seen with Gostisbehere is the degree to which plays that lead to highlight-reel goals in the minor leagues get shut down by NHL opponents, especially once they have accumulated some game video of you. I don't want Gostisbehere to turn into another Marc-André Bergeron.
I don't think Ghost plays for the highlight reels. I just think he's ultra aggressive and confident in his abilities that he will try things that most guys won't. Like trying to split a forecheck in front of his own net. Defensively, Gostisbehere is one of the best defensemen in the league at defending the rush imo. And he does it on his off side which makes it more impressive. He has such great feet and even though he's not the tallest player he utilizes every inch of his reach because he has great athleticism. Ghost's weaknesses are most likely always going to be his weaknesses and I've said this before he even played a game for the Flyers. Every 50/50 puck he battles for, he's at a physical disadvantage. And he's not going to move or separate anyone from the puck. Once he gets his hands on the puck he can be a tremendous puck mover either with the pass or using his elusiveness to slip the forecheck and skate the puck out on his own. I never quite got the oft mentioned MAB comparison. Ghost is a much better skater and in 64 games as a rookie he topped any season that MAB had as a pro in both goals and points. His is also bigger.

Plus, effective defense leads to offense. Get the puck off the onrushing opponent and turn it around for an odd-man rush the other way. This isn't the NFL when the defense forces a turnover, the play stops, and the offense comes onto the field.
Good defense can lead to good offense, but if you play good offense and make smart passes, you don't have to play defense. And unlike football, hockey doesn't have a playclock so you can play offense as much as you'd like. ;)

Since he was brought up, I know people see deficiencies in Sanheim's game when he is in the defensive zone (and some are justified), but I don't think people realize how many plays he keeps alive in the offensive zone. The way he reads plays, he has an uncanny ability to beat wingers to loose pucks in the offensive zone, along the boards, and even below the dots. It seems like once a game he has a 60+ second shift in the offensive zone. Those shifts can often be game changing shifts. People don't see that as playing defense, but it really is. Some will say it is just reckless pinching in the offensive zone, but it's really not. It's very much calculated and it helps to be that tall and mobile.

For Sanheim, I believe that the difference between 1st and 2nd lines will be how tough he plays defensively. Not fighting or hitting tough necessarily, but smart active defense where he uses his stick and his body to shut down opposing puck carriers, and where he plays positionally sound defense. If he is playing with Provorov, for example, he can afford to cheat a bit more but I don't foresee him sticking to a top pair by playing rover all game. I want my top defensive pairing to have a well rounded game.

Comparisons with Paul Coffey are of little value because of the drastic changes from the NHL at his time, particularly with respect to the unprecedented offense of the Oilers at the time.
And yet the best defenseman in the game today does just that. I think every person has a picture in their head of what a defenseman is supposed to look like. And I think most people and coaches have the same mindset as you. They want that safe steady guy. That is why guys like Doughty always get the edge when compared to guys like Karlsson on these boards and Provorov gets the edge when compared to a guy like Werenski a lot of times. At the end of the day you have to remember the object of the game is to outscore your opponent. There are many ways to do that.

There's no doubt in Sanheim's case, whether he becomes a star or not will depend on how effective he becomes as a defender. I'm on record as saying I only think he has to become average to get there because I believe he has the potential to be a game changer offensively at the next level. He's 6'4, long, and mobile. I like his odds in time, but there will be an adjustment period where people will have to be patient.
 

Larry44

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There's no doubt in Sanheim's case, whether he becomes a star or not will depend on how effective he becomes as a defender. I'm on record as saying I only think he has to become average to get there because I believe he has the potential to be a game changer offensively at the next level. He's 6'4, long, and mobile. I like his odds in time, but there will be an adjustment period where people will have to be patient.

Agreed that Sanheim has the chance to be a gamebreaker at the NHL level. As you can see from some of the clips, he skates so well he will almost always be able to beat his checker up ice, so when he joins the rush he'll be alone in the slot waiting for a drop pass. Your observations about his pinching and holding the point are spot on. Ghost and Provy are great at that too, as are both Myers and Hagg.

You maximize your Ozone time by being able to keep the puck in.

Myers has the same skating speed and hockey sense that Sanheim does, so looking forward to seeing him in the NHL too.

Whatever happens with the forwards, they are going to get a lot of offensive chances from great outlet passes, and a lot of assists from hitting the trailing Dmen (assuming the D haven't stepped up to lead the rush!).

The best part of all this speculation about the D prospects is that, for the most part, we are collectively being fairly realistic.

The fact that Ghost surprised everyone last year was a function of the fact that we all needed to see him vs. NHL bodies/speed to see how his game would translate.

We all assumed Provorov was ready but then to see how, in less than a season, he's become clearly best player on the team is amazing.

If Sanheim and Myers fulfill the potential of their offensive instincts, speed and talent, the D corp will be very dangerous.

Morin and Hagg can be the defensive anchors and both are mobile, strong and smart. A bit more patience and it should all come together very nicely even if it means a couple more years of growing pains.
 

deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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I totally disagree, what makes a great defenseman is taking care of business in the D-zone, then being able to flip the switch and become a "fourth forward" in the O-zone. Provorov is exhibit A, watch his defensive fundamentals, riding forwards out of the play, sealing off the puck, etc. Yet when the opportunity presents itself he can skate end to end and fire a vicious wrist shot to finish off the play.

You don't want a "rover" playing defense, you want a defenseman who understands what he's doing at both ends of the ice. You create offense off your defense by not allowing the other team to control the puck in your D-zone, stop the rush, get the puck out of the corner, quickly pass it out of the zone without turning it over and the game will be slanted toward your opponent's O-zone. Take educated gambles in the O-zone (and be on the same page with your forwards who should cycle back to prevent breakaways), but don't try to play "hero hockey" where you attempt to skate through three defenders and get stripped.

The real secret to being an effective player is to let the game come to you, not force things, know the speed of the game, and wait for opportunities to develop. If you're smart and patient, someone will have a puck bounce over their stick, an off target pass into someone's skates, etc., and that's when you strike decisively to make a big play. You have four teammates, learn to use them.

The best players aren't the biggest or fastest, but the ones who process information efficiently, aware of everyone on the ice and anticipating plays unfolding and either breaking them up or putting oneself in the proper spot to finish.

Wayne Greztsky was undersized, had good but not great speed, but played the game as if everyone was moving in slow motion - it was his vision and anticipation, not his raw physical talent, that made him the GOAT.
 

MacDonald4MVP

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May 7, 2016
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I totally disagree, what makes a great defenseman is taking care of business in the D-zone, then being able to flip the switch and become a "fourth forward" in the O-zone. Provorov is exhibit A, watch his defensive fundamentals, riding forwards out of the play, sealing off the puck, etc. Yet when the opportunity presents itself he can skate end to end and fire a vicious wrist shot to finish off the play.

You don't want a "rover" playing defense, you want a defenseman who understands what he's doing at both ends of the ice. You create offense off your defense by not allowing the other team to control the puck in your D-zone, stop the rush, get the puck out of the corner, quickly pass it out of the zone without turning it over and the game will be slanted toward your opponent's O-zone. Take educated gambles in the O-zone (and be on the same page with your forwards who should cycle back to prevent breakaways), but don't try to play "hero hockey" where you attempt to skate through three defenders and get stripped.

The real secret to being an effective player is to let the game come to you, not force things, know the speed of the game, and wait for opportunities to develop. If you're smart and patient, someone will have a puck bounce over their stick, an off target pass into someone's skates, etc., and that's when you strike decisively to make a big play. You have four teammates, learn to use them.

The best players aren't the biggest or fastest, but the ones who process information efficiently, aware of everyone on the ice and anticipating plays unfolding and either breaking them up or putting oneself in the proper spot to finish.

Wayne Greztsky was undersized, had good but not great speed, but played the game as if everyone was moving in slow motion - it was his vision and anticipation, not his raw physical talent, that made him the GOAT.

You do realize that Gretzky advocates exact same style of play Ghosts of the world see coached out of them.
 

deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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Gretzky as a player is different than Gretzky as a coach/GM.
You can't teach what he did.
You can teach fundamentals and situational awareness.

If you watch Ghost the past few weeks he's cut back on the dumb passes out of the D-zone and has become more physical in the sense of riding forwards out of the play - and his offense has improved. There is no contradiction between playing good defense and good offense, good defense results in turnovers and offensive opportunities, bad defense results in the puck staying in the D-zone and goals for the opposing team.

I think where people get confused is the type of player, Morin on defense is not going to create offense other than shots on the point, nor do you want him doing so, you want him as a defensive anchor using his speed and reach to defend (much like Coburn used to do paired with Kimmo).
Sanheim needs to play fundamental defense, not instead of offense, but as the foundation of his offensive game, because if he breaks up plays and causes turnovers, his speed allows an instant transition from defense to offense.

An offensive defensemen is most effective when he gets the puck to his forwards, let them attack the O-zone, and reads the play - because when the forwards lead the attack, the defense often is caught by surprise when a talented defensemen comes "out of nowhere" to accept a pass and drive on the net.
 

LegionOfDoom91

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Trent Frederic won the Big Ten Freshmen of the year. Laczynski didn't make the All-Freshmen Team for the conference. A drop in production after the WJC probably cost him a spot. Along with Frederic, Denis Smirnov & Rem Pitlick were the other forwards.
 

MacDonald4MVP

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Gretzky as a player is different than Gretzky as a coach/GM.
You can't teach what he did.
You can teach fundamentals and situational awareness.

If you watch Ghost the past few weeks he's cut back on the dumb passes out of the D-zone and has become more physical in the sense of riding forwards out of the play - and his offense has improved. There is no contradiction between playing good defense and good offense, good defense results in turnovers and offensive opportunities, bad defense results in the puck staying in the D-zone and goals for the opposing team.

I think where people get confused is the type of player, Morin on defense is not going to create offense other than shots on the point, nor do you want him doing so, you want him as a defensive anchor using his speed and reach to defend (much like Coburn used to do paired with Kimmo).
Sanheim needs to play fundamental defense, not instead of offense, but as the foundation of his offensive game, because if he breaks up plays and causes turnovers, his speed allows an instant transition from defense to offense.

An offensive defensemen is most effective when he gets the puck to his forwards, let them attack the O-zone, and reads the play - because when the forwards lead the attack, the defense often is caught by surprise when a talented defensemen comes "out of nowhere" to accept a pass and drive on the net.

God you really must hate Josi. All those zone entries when he could just have nashville's forwards take care of business and just crash the net.
 

tymed

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Bunnaman showing quick hands, picking up a missed shot around the back of the net and tucking it in backhand. Tied it up with under 2 minutes to go.
 

Striiker

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Gostisbehere isn't even a bad defensive player, his flaws get exaggerated.

He does a very good job at breaking up zone entries too.

C6wQNBhW0AAwP6Z.jpg:large
 

tymed

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LegionOfDoom91

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35 goals on the year for Bunnaman. Only two games left on the year in the regular season for Kitchener so 40 is likely out of reach. Next year though as a 19/20 year old & hopefully an improved Kitchener team (they're an average team, pretty young & need more talent) he could go over 40 goals.
 

BernieParent

In misery of redwings of suckage for a long time
Mar 13, 2009
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I don't think Ghost plays for the highlight reels. I just think he's ultra aggressive and confident in his abilities that he will try things that most guys won't. Like trying to split a forecheck in front of his own net. Defensively, Gostisbehere is one of the best defensemen in the league at defending the rush imo. And he does it on his off side which makes it more impressive. He has such great feet and even though he's not the tallest player he utilizes every inch of his reach because he has great athleticism. Ghost's weaknesses are most likely always going to be his weaknesses and I've said this before he even played a game for the Flyers. Every 50/50 puck he battles for, he's at a physical disadvantage. And he's not going to move or separate anyone from the puck. Once he gets his hands on the puck he can be a tremendous puck mover either with the pass or using his elusiveness to slip the forecheck and skate the puck out on his own. I never quite got the oft mentioned MAB comparison. Ghost is a much better skater and in 64 games as a rookie he topped any season that MAB had as a pro in both goals and points. His is also bigger.

Good defense can lead to good offense, but if you play good offense and make smart passes, you don't have to play defense. And unlike football, hockey doesn't have a playclock so you can play offense as much as you'd like. ;)

Since he was brought up, I know people see deficiencies in Sanheim's game when he is in the defensive zone (and some are justified), but I don't think people realize how many plays he keeps alive in the offensive zone. The way he reads plays, he has an uncanny ability to beat wingers to loose pucks in the offensive zone, along the boards, and even below the dots. It seems like once a game he has a 60+ second shift in the offensive zone. Those shifts can often be game changing shifts. People don't see that as playing defense, but it really is. Some will say it is just reckless pinching in the offensive zone, but it's really not. It's very much calculated and it helps to be that tall and mobile.


And yet the best defenseman in the game today does just that. I think every person has a picture in their head of what a defenseman is supposed to look like. And I think most people and coaches have the same mindset as you. They want that safe steady guy. That is why guys like Doughty always get the edge when compared to guys like Karlsson on these boards and Provorov gets the edge when compared to a guy like Werenski a lot of times. At the end of the day you have to remember the object of the game is to outscore your opponent. There are many ways to do that.

There's no doubt in Sanheim's case, whether he becomes a star or not will depend on how effective he becomes as a defender. I'm on record as saying I only think he has to become average to get there because I believe he has the potential to be a game changer offensively at the next level. He's 6'4, long, and mobile. I like his odds in time, but there will be an adjustment period where people will have to be patient.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. My MAB reference was simply to invoke the extreme case for Gostisbehere where he would be offense only and a liability on defense. I don't expect him to play a physical game, even on Timonen's level. Not dissing Timonen who could lay out hard hits; more on stature. Plus, it's probably my bias as a goalie where I am not a fan of a defenseman who is willing to fly the zone at the drop of a hat, only to have an errant pass come back at me with numbers.

Though I'm not in his head, I don't think Gostisbehere is looking for the highlight reels in particular, either. However, there is a whole lot of grey area between your affirmation of this in sentence 1 with how you describe his aggressiveness immediately after. We can think back to his NCAA career where he could go end to end with regularity, leaving jockstraps in his wake. Last season he pulled some of those beauty moves and it was a joy to behold. These were on highlight reels for all the right reasons. Then teams started getting a read on him and the moves were getting outmoved by good positioning on the forechecker's part. It's a necessary adjustment for Gostisbehere is all. He shouldn't at all just stop doing that and practice bouncing the puck up the glass as his go-to; rather, he just needs to add to his arsenal so he isn't predictable and improving his read on when a forechecker looks more prone to biting on the fake.

You also identified a point in my favour ;), which is his adept defending of a rush. Gostisbehere uses his stick well to eliminate passing lanes and to seek out the puck from the opponent. That is good defending and this skill should be honed. There is also the matter of body positioning; he shouldn't be going all cat-with-a-laser-pointer on the puck and giving the opponent a chance to turn him inside out. Responsible defending means aggressively going for the puck while positioning himself to cut off the best lane for a scoring chance. Another defensive skill to work on for constant improvement.

I'm with you on the importance of maintaining offensive possession both to increase scoring chances and also to reduce scoring chances against. It's fantastic that Gostisbehere and Sanheim have exceptional ability to do so. Those plays where Gostisbehere would go Superman and stop a mid-air clearing attempt were breathtaking. However, every team is eventually going to give up some pucks against an NHL-worthy opponent, so each skater needs to know their defensive assignment and positioning. No skater can ignore defensive responsibility. We've seen all too bleakly what happens when assignments are lost. Ultimately, Gostisbehere needs to be more defensively responsible and aware than the forwards by virtue of his positioning. Being closer to the goal, there is a geographic necessity to being defense first while the puck is in the opponents' possession. I know this is an exercise in the bleedin' obvious but I am just trying to walk through the foundation of my point of view.

I'll point out, in a hopefully not too disjointed way, that I'm not making these arguments because of egregious deficiencies in any of the D prospects' games. Some aspects need more work than others. But my central point is that it is imperative to drill in the fundamentals of defensive work on defensemen, no matter how offensively gifted they are, for them to be effective in all zones and at all game situations.

What I like about Gostisbehere, Sanheim, and Myers are that they have shown the ability to quickly and appropriately transition to offense. Maybe I'm missing a bunch of times where they have taken off and gotten caught up ice, but I haven't seen them. That is my vision of an exceptional defenseman; one who sticks to his assignment until it is right to blast off with the cavalry towards the opposing net.

I think it is obvious that this team will rely heavily on the defense to not only prevent goals but to initiate offense. So I am good with the likes of Gostisbehere, Sanheim, and Myers being more aggressive in their transitions. But it has to be reasonable and progressive in their ability to read the offensive potential to not be moving in the wrong direction a significant proportion of the time.

I'll end with my developed appreciation for Morin, who has all the tools to be the "sober second thought" of the more offensively minded defensemen. The fact that he is as fast as he is for a more stay-at-home type gives much more latitude to the "rover" instinct.

Thanks for (hopefully) sticking with this tl:dr worthy saga.
 

BernieParent

In misery of redwings of suckage for a long time
Mar 13, 2009
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God you really must hate Josi. All those zone entries when he could just have nashville's forwards take care of business and just crash the net.

I don't understand your point. I think deadhead is saying that headmanning the puck to the forward for a quicker transition to the offensive zone pushes the defense back and creates that soft space in the slot that an offensively minded defenseman can exploit. It's not that a gifted puck carrier like Karlsson or Josi can't go end to end, but I'd be loathe for that to be offensive plan A.
 

FLYguy3911

Sanheim Lover
Oct 19, 2006
53,109
86,451
To avoid this page turning into an essay contest I'll just reply to a couple points.

Though I'm not in his head, I don't think Gostisbehere is looking for the highlight reels in particular, either. However, there is a whole lot of grey area between your affirmation of this in sentence 1 with how you describe his aggressiveness immediately after. We can think back to his NCAA career where he could go end to end with regularity, leaving jockstraps in his wake. Last season he pulled some of those beauty moves and it was a joy to behold. These were on highlight reels for all the right reasons. Then teams started getting a read on him and the moves were getting outmoved by good positioning on the forechecker's part. It's a necessary adjustment for Gostisbehere is all. He shouldn't at all just stop doing that and practice bouncing the puck up the glass as his go-to; rather, he just needs to add to his arsenal so he isn't predictable and improving his read on when a forechecker looks more prone to biting on the fake.

I know a lot of people believe this but I disagree. I don't think teams necessarily figured Ghost out and I think we are seeing that with his play the last few weeks or so. Ghost is a player that feeds off confidence. When he's in that zone, he's extremely difficult to contain- when he's not thinking and he's just playing. After a good start to the season he hit a rough patch. Nothing was going in offensively and every other shot was going in on the defensive side. He went from one of the "luckiest" players in the league last year to one of the "unluckiest". And then came the healthy scratches and getting called out for his play away from the puck. Everything just kind of snowballed and I don't quite think he knew how to react. To me it looked like that had an effect on his game. He looked like a kid that was afraid to make a mistake and that's the last thing you want with a player like him.

He looks more like the player we saw last year so hopefully those stretch of games earlier in the year were just a blip on the radar. Oh and getting a new partner will probably help him too. Outside of a few games with "Good MDZ" last year, he's played with absolute slop in the NHL.

I'll point out, in a hopefully not too disjointed way, that I'm not making these arguments because of egregious deficiencies in any of the D prospects' games. Some aspects need more work than others. But my central point is that it is imperative to drill in the fundamentals of defensive work on defensemen, no matter how offensively gifted they are, for them to be effective in all zones and at all game situations.
They should drill defensive fundamentals. You have to get the puck back and you have to prevent scoring chances. I just think some coaches get carried away and force a young talented defenseman to play a game that is not tailored to their strengths. There are plenty examples of players in this league having success playing the modern or "unconventional" way. Show them where to be when the other team has the puck, get out of the way, and don't be afraid to play your best players in close games because they might make a mistake (because they might just make a play too coach).

I believe strongly that defense at the NHL level is more about the team than the individual and offense at the NHL level is more about the individuals than it is about the scheme. John Hynes can get the Devils to play defense, but he can't get them to score goals because they lack skill. Sure there are times when a player is going to be asked to win a one-on-one matchup or win a 50/50 puck, but for the most part, if you have a good system in place, you can prevent goals.

A guy like Nick Schultz is someone most would describe as a good defender in the literal sense. But he's most likely going to find himself out of the league next year or in training camp on a tryout deal trying to make another club. Why? Because he can't make enough plays with the puck. He's a guy in the critical situations of the game, the best realistic outcome is that the other team doesn't score, much like with PEB and VDV up front.

You can always shelter a poor defender against top lines, but you cannot shelter a poor offensive player away from the puck. The game revolves around it. You have to be able to handle and make plays with it.

One thing I'll never understand is when people talk about forwards it's always about what they bring offensively and rarely what they lack on the defensive end. Why are defensemen different? They aren't goalies. Their job isn't to just prevent goals. They have sticks in their hands too, they just occupy different areas of the ice. Travis Konecny for example, is not what I would call a good defensive player, but he generates a lot of offense and I would say his net impact this year is a positive.

I'll end with my developed appreciation for Morin, who has all the tools to be the "sober second thought" of the more offensively minded defensemen. The fact that he is as fast as he is for a more stay-at-home type gives much more latitude to the "rover" instinct.

Thanks for (hopefully) sticking with this tl:dr worthy saga.
They do have a nice collection of different skill sets in the system that they should be able to mix and match with some success in the future. You have Provorov the solid all-around guy that can do a bit of everything. You have Ghost with the creative puck handling and bomb of a shot. You have Sanheim, also an offensive guy, but with a completely different style than Ghost. Morin is the low maintenance defender with a rare blend of height, weight, and speed. Myers is a bit of a cross between Sanheim and Morin. And maybe Hagg can fill out the bottom of the roster.
 
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