Peter Klima: Players in the 80s couldn't skate, a modern player would outscore Gordie Howe 1000x

[Michael Farkas]

Ok, yeah, he got 100 goals - as a goals-only winger, in an easier scoring environment - like 12 games sooner than playmaker (or at worst, balanced attacker) Jagr...Ogrodnick and Gallant probably were too...

I just put on a 1991 Oilers game while getting a quick workout in...Klima was playing top six and got plenty of power play time...he almost certainly wasn't playing towards the bottom of the lineup and getting 40 goals...

 

[MadLuke]

Ok, yeah, he got 100 goals - as a goals-only winger, in an easier scoring environment - like 12 games sooner than playmaker (or at worst, balanced attacker) Jagr...Ogrodnick and Gallant probably were too...

Is that going 100% with what he is saying or against what he is saying ? You seem to simply exactly repeat what he exactly said.

Jagr is one of the best goalscorer ever even if he was a balanced attacker, 766 goals with a KHL detour is no small feat.

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Klima’s NHL-statline was pretty descent (786-313-260-573), given the fact that he was a hardcore alcoholic for his entire NHL-career. I believe his longest dry spell came in late 1995 when he stayed sober for almost six months. By that time he was long past his prime.

Klima and Probert caused a lot of headache for coach Jacques Demers in Detroit.
Demers himself grew up with an alcoholic father that constantly abused him verbally, so he really tried to help these two players to the best of his ability. But they were pretty much a lost cause.
Demers called Klima "Detroit’s most gifted player".

We all know Probert and his struggles, he was constantly in and out of rehab (in 1988 he already had five stints there). Klima himself had three drunken-driving arrests as of 1989, and was on antabuse every second day. He missed missed a ton of curfews and flights over the years.

The one that pissed off Demers the most, was when Klima, Probert and four other Detroit players missed curfew before game five of the conference final against Edmonton. Klima, Probert and Darren Veitch were plastered. John Chabot, Joey Kocur and backup goalie Daren Eliot were a tad more sober. They all returned to their Edmonton hotel at 3 AM on the day of the game.

Needless to say that it didn’t sit well with Demers. Before that fifth game, Probert was fourth in playoff scoring behind Gretzky, Messier and Kurri. Klima was second in playoff goals behind Kurri.
Chabot was in 7th place (points). Demers wanted to bench all of them, but had to dress Probert and Chabot. Both were scoreless, Chabot was -1 and Probert -3. The others (Kocur, Veitch and Klima) were all scratched. Detroit lost 4-8, ending their playoff run.

A couple of days before Klima got traded to Edmonton the following year (1989), when hearing the rumours of him being shipped to Edmonton, he threatened that he would rather quit than report to Edmonton. He joked that nobody wanted him, that he was a drunk. Well, six months later he was a cup champ with Edmonton.

Klima was highly skilled, had very good scoring instincts, but was lazy and never bothered defensively. He liked to live in the fast lane. His love for cars, booze and women trumped hockey.

 

[The Panther]

On the 1989-90 Oilers, Klima certainly had limited ice-time and for the most part, rarely saw the PP or top-six minutes.

But it was a different story on the 1990-91 Oilers --- the first Oilers' team in franchise history that struggled to score. Some are saying it was easier to score then, but the 1991 Oilers would have ranked right in the middle of the pack offensively in the 2022-23 season. So, it wasn't easier. Klima scored 40 goals in 70 games and went +24, best on the club. He really showed what he could do that season.

Unfortunately, I think for much of his career he wasn't really showing his best (his party lifestyle being one factor), and he seemed to lack that x-factor determination to succeed that some elite players have.

But man, he was a slick stickhandler and was amazing when one-on-one with goalies.

 

[Czechboy]

I think a few people interpreted this to say Klima thought he was the GOAT.lol

He says he wasn't a great shooter and just happened to be a good skater when a lot of the guys weren't good skaters. Never once did he say he was great or anything at all. He was very humble.

After he says this.. a few people pull up stats and prove he wasn't Wayne Gretzky.lol

That's what Klima said too!

 

[sr edler]

Ok, yeah, he got 100 goals - as a goals-only winger, in an easier scoring environment - like 12 games sooner than playmaker (or at worst, balanced attacker) Jagr...Ogrodnick and Gallant probably were too...

Klima was also a couple of years (I think at least 2) older than Jagr when he debuted in the NHL, which makes a ton of difference if we're talking 18 or 20–21.

This reminds me of a Peterka vs Grieg poll recently on this board where some people tried to pimp Grieg 10-or-so games into the season by pointing out he was scoring close to a Bedard or Carlsson pace. Well, first it was 10 games into the season (he has since cooled down), and secondly Grieg is 3 years older than those guys.

 

[Czechboy]

 

[Dingo]

The funny thing is, Klima scored 40 goals just once. A few 30s, but he peaked at 40 and his best point season was 68 in 1991. I mean, if you are going to bash previous eras including the one you played in and talk about how no one could skate and that's why you scored so many goals....................well, shouldn't you have scored a lot more than 573 points in 786 games in a high scoring era?

I like some things about Klima. We all remember the 1990 overtime goal vs. Boston in triple overtime. And who the heck can forget his helmet and Don Cherry's constant railing about it? But he was very much an enigma, one of those William Nylander types that you know very well can do a lot better if he wanted to (Nylander is doing that for a change this year) but he doesn't. Or maybe he couldn't? Maybe that's what Klima was, just a 50-60 point guy. And if that is the case in such a high scoring era I don't think you ought to bash your era if you couldn't do better than that.

why not?We have opinions and he is better than us. Takes a solid ego to not do the opposite and say, "i was a 40 goal scorer! Im better than...." and list off tons of newer players. Pretty honest take.

 

[Crosby2010]

why not?We have opinions and he is better than us. Takes a solid ego to not do the opposite and say, "i was a 40 goal scorer! Im better than...." and list off tons of newer players. Pretty honest take.

But he's been out of the game for a long time. Of course things look fast to him. Gretzky says the same thing when he is at ice level and watching a game. He wonders how he would ever be able to compete in today's game. Well, he would, and he'd do the same sort of thing. When you are pushing 60 like Klima is then I think it is easy to forget that the game wasn't easy when he played either.

 

[MadLuke]

Well, he would, and he'd do the same sort of thing.

If he take his seasons-summer has seriously than back then and hated the game ? Would he score 30-40 ?

Klima in 1991 was top 10 in goal per game, 7th in even strength goals playing 70 games.

Klima scored goals at Verbeek-Bellows-Messier-Tocchet-Larmer-Gallant-Richer-Sandstrom-Anderson-Andreychuk-MacLean pace from 86 to 91, top 30 in the league among the 250 games or more.

If he really felt he was not that good at hockey versus is Czech league buddies and did not put a lot of effort in his career, that seem to be good enough to wonder why he could have that much success.

His explanation that he was simply a strong skater in a era when not everyone was in the nhl so he was able to get by could make snese.

The error he make is to think that you can take the evolution from back then to now and applied it linearly in the past, it does not mean someone could have low hockey-iq, overall game and talent and just get by with strong skating in the peak of 06 league if it would have been possible in an other era.

But he's been out of the game for a long time.

It could be based from what he saw and lived from 1986 to 1999, but then again your point could remain, maybe if he had his 25 years old skating-stamina-reflex-etc... in 1999, he would not have felt that the leagued changed at all.

 

[Crosby2010]

It could be based from what he saw and lived from 1986 to 1999, but then again your point could remain, maybe if he had his 25 years old skating-stamina-reflex-etc... in 1999, he would not have felt that the leagued changed at all.

Me personally I know that when I see younger people than me playing a sport and it looks like they are dominating out there I tend to remind myself that there was a time when I was quicker and had better reflexes too. For example, I could hit a baseball further at 20 years old than today. Throw one further and faster too.

 

[Dingo]

the game is faster.

MMA is astoundingly faster than it was in the 90s, but hasnt really changed since the late 00s

Foreman, Ali, Frazier were just as fast and disciplined and tough as guys now.

Money changes everything - Cyndi Lauper.

 

[MadLuke]

Foreman, Ali, Frazier were just as fast and disciplined and tough as guys now.

Many would say talent pool and sport popularity was higher in their era than now, now that a good heavyweight athlete can make a fortune in the nba-nfl-mlb-etc....

In term of eye test a Roberto Duran vs Suger Ray Leonard does not look at all out of place versus now, it is one sport where even the time machine scenario will maybe not favor today boxer versus any era.

The war veteran farming boy that boxed 25-30 time a year against people that also boxed all the time would have a mental and bag of tricks that maybe today fighter that fight sometime less than 2.5 time a year in average once they established would have an hard time to match.

I tend to remind myself that there was a time when I was quicker and had better reflexes too.

Yes, it is possible that he is simply right and not delusional. And it is a different question of player more talented in different than in 86-87-88, dedication-effort-training-strategy (having people good to fight and hit or not for example) would also be a factor here.

 

[Overrated]

the game is faster.

MMA is astoundingly faster than it was in the 90s, but hasnt really changed since the late 00s

Foreman, Ali, Frazier were just as fast and disciplined and tough as guys now.

Money changes everything - Cyndi Lauper.

mma was a completely new sport in the 1990s though...

 

[Golden_Jet]

Snepts was a slow skater.

 

[Dingo]

mma was a completely new sport in the 1990s though...

i know that it is an extreme example, but i used something painfully obvious to illustrate my point that sports can improve (and also degrade) depending on many variables... money being a foundational variable - as it encourages the talent pool to try anything to improve. it lights a fire. makes the sharks compete harder.

 

[Crosby2010]

Yes, it is possible that he is simply right and not delusional. And it is a different question of player more talented in different than in 86-87-88, dedication-effort-training-strategy (having people good to fight and hit or not for example) would also be a factor here.

You did have to worry about getting bodychecked in the 1980s and 1990s though. How often do we see a legit bodycheck these days? So I think that helps out a lot too with the skating and such in the NHL. The players do what they can these days because they simply have the rules to allow them to do it and not worry about anything.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Your logic was that they drew up plays and executed them - infinitely - on the ice in their backyard.

Video game hockey is so poorly structured and the physics are...I just...well, I just never thought that anyone would make this claim seriously. I guess you also subscribe to the theory that Goldeneye for N64 led to a bunch of school shootings or whatever...?

No, I can see the logic behind it. But I can also see your point. I think it’s one tool in a vast toolbox you could use. Humans are bred and evolved to be pattern hunters. Computer logic while faulty, does have patterns to it. Could be simple as “man, I’m getting a lot of cross crease goals”.

There obviously is far more nuance and randomness in the actual game and not computer, but I’d say it can be ultimately helpful at a novice level at least. The games are built quite well these days too with actual tactics and coverage you’d see at maybe a lower but prestigious level like say major junior, and the like.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

But he's been out of the game for a long time. Of course things look fast to him. Gretzky says the same thing when he is at ice level and watching a game. He wonders how he would ever be able to compete in today's game. Well, he would, and he'd do the same sort of thing. When you are pushing 60 like Klima is then I think it is easy to forget that the game wasn't easy when he played either.

Look at the skates from the 60s, or sticks. It looked like Bobby Orr was skating on work boots with razor blades welded on the bottom.

I’m sure many of you were also around to try and handle the old wooden sticks. Good luck raising the puck with a straight blade. When I switched to composite, I wondered why I had held out for so long.

I mean the equipment they used alone it’s impressive the games looked how they did. Don’t discount those who blazed the trail because they did it using stone scythes.

 

[Crosby2010]

Look at the skates from the 60s, or sticks. It looked like Bobby Orr was skating on work boots with razor blades welded on the bottom.

I’m sure many of you were also around to try and handle the old wooden sticks. Good luck raising the puck with a straight blade. When I switched to composite, I wondered why I had held out for so long.

I mean the equipment they used alone it’s impressive the games looked how they did. Don’t discount those who blazed the trail because they did it using stone scythes.

I agree. Equipment has come a long ways, not so much the human body like we tend to think. People just seem to discount the older eras because of this. Plus look at the goaltending equipment, smaller but still heavy pads. No masks in some cases.

 

[Chili]

In Mr Howe's day, most if not all players had a job in the off season. And the off season was much longer. Training camps were to get in shape.

At the beginning of the Summit Series, the Soviets were in much better condition, believe they trained almost year round. By the time the series went to Moscow, the Canadians were in much better shape. And since then, training has been taken more seriously.

Rosters were also smaller, there wasn't a fourth line. Shift lengths were much longer so guys had to pace themselves. More recently, I remember watching the way Chris Pronger paced himself so he could play 30+ minutes a game, similar to back in the day.

Without the red line, it's a different game now. The speed of play doesn't compare. There has been so much evolution beyond that in training, nutrition, equipment...

Was up close to Mr Howe twice, the most impressive physique I've seen. Given all the advantages of today's players believe he would do just fine now.

 

[Staniowski]

A lot could be said about Klima's words, and it's a very interesting topic. And there are several layers to it. But, certainly, the NHL improved a lot in the 2nd-half of the '80s and 1st-half of the '90s, and Klima's career happened during these big changes. Those big changes being improved depth of talent, better defense, and better coaching. So the crux of what he's saying is correct.

 

[gretzkyoilers]

A lot could be said about Klima's words, and it's a very interesting topic. And there are several layers to it. But, certainly, the NHL improved a lot in the 2nd-half of the '80s and 1st-half of the '90s, and Klima's career happened during these big changes. Those big changes being improved depth of talent, better defense, and better coaching. So the crux of what he's saying is correct.

True and this has been analyzed many times here especially with players that overlapped eras like Gretzky, Messier, Lemieux, Jagr, etc. They all did well in overlapping eras. Heck Jagr at age 44 in 2015-2016 playing on the Panthers was the team's leading scorer and had nearly 30 goals.

Humans did not evolve that rapidly (we did not all of a sudden become super humans) but rather the equipment and rule changes had a much more substantial role in how the game is played and overall "appearance" to the average viewer. Training helps too quite a bit and the human body is remarkable in it's ability to adapt as well.

 

[MadLuke]

with players that overlapped eras like Gretzky, Messier, Lemieux, Jagr, etc.

There is no doubt those were elites players, I do not think that goes against what Staniowski is implying. The marging between them and the worst players (even median players) was big enough for them being really good and the league not that dept to be true at the same time.

And coaching-defense advancement should not impact if jagr-Lemieux, etc... continue to be good against the newcomer, it can affect how much they will score but it will affect everyone else as well.

 

[Boxscore]

Call me crazy but Klima was one of the coolest players in NHL history lol. Loved his goofy face, mullet, ugly JOFA bucket, 85 jersey tucked in, and his odd tape job. Even his name was fun: Petr Klima. One of the players jerseys I want to add to my collection in fact.