Post-Game Talk: |Pens vs Panthers | win | What did it cost us?

[Andy99]

I can't quite put my finger on what's changed with the PP. 4 of the 5 guys are the same as when they were struggling, so it couldn't possibly be that 5th spot since we were told that wouldn't make a bit of difference.

To me, Geno seems to be running the PP, or at least he’s certainly improved on it lately…and that’s irrespective of Rakell

 

[Andy99]

Has Rust gained his swagger back or what? Looks like a totally different player than a few weeks ago.
At worst, Malkin has a bone bruise which would knock him out for about 2-3 weeks.

What?!! I’m counting on Geno playing Sunday lol…

 

[TheGoldenJet]

But is he still the 101st best player ever or is that gone now?

According to this recent poll he is ranked around ~31st greatest all-time now (and climbing):

When his career finishes, where does Evgeni Malkin rank all time for you?

Evgeni Malkin, Future 1st ballot HOFer. Complete career. Sadly missed a lot of time year after year but you can't deny the success. 3 Stanley Cups 1 Conn Smythe 2 Art Ross 1 Hart 1 Ted Lindsay 1 Calder Season: 1007 games, 1171 points Playoffs: 177 games, 180 points

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

To me, Geno seems to be running the PP, or at least he’s certainly improved on it lately…and that’s irrespective of Rakell

That to me has been THE MOST relevant component. Geno is now maneuvering around and almost playing a rover role instead of being stapled to the right point waiting for the inevitable 1 timer that never comes.

This is how a PP is supposed to function: you have a player who can control the pace of the man advantage by galloping around/creating space or his presence in the right circle is more of a threat vs it being on the point (or at least more of a threat than Crosby being there)

It only took them about 4 seasons to figure this out since Kessel left. So yea, Exhibit A of why so many people justifiably wanted Sully canned

 

[Icarium]

That to me has been THE MOST relevant component. Geno is now maneuvering around and almost playing a rover role instead of being stapled to the right point waiting for the inevitable 1 timer that never comes.

He hasn't been stapled to the right point for years now. If anything, he has been stapled to the left point and when he sticks to that position the power play is usually terrible to the surprise of nobody but our coaching staff. We haven't had a PP centered around Geno's one-timer for a long time. Moving around and winning puck battles is essential, so of course when the first unit started doing it, the goals came. But I still think it could utilise Geno's one-timer more, it's not what it used to be, obviously but it's a lot more dangerous than a wrister from the left point for sure.

 

[vodeni]

I know it sounds weird to say, but in terms of injuries, blunt force is the best kind. Bones heal and generally return close to pre-injury functionality/performance.

Ligaments, cartilage, tendons, etc tend not to repair themselves as well. His prior knee issues will not be impacted by what happened last night. Depending on the severity of the bruise, he'll be back to normal from 1 to 3 weeks.

there you go dreaded week to week

What?!! I’m counting on Geno playing Sunday lol…

WTW

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

He hasn't been stapled to the right point for years now. If anything, he has been stapled to the left point and when he sticks to that position the power play is usually terrible to the surprise of nobody but our coaching staff. We haven't had a PP centered around Geno's one-timer for a long time. Moving around and winning puck battles is essential, so of course when the first unit started doing it, the goals came. But I still think it could utilise Geno's one-timer more, it's not what it used to be, obviously but it's a lot more dangerous than a wrister from the left point for sure.

I'm unsure if we're using the terms "right" and "left" identically. In my view, Geno was always at the right point (top of the screen on TV) and Letang at the left point.

So yes, Geno has been stapled to the right point essentially his entire career when both he and Crosby were healthy.

 

[Icarium]

So yes, Geno has been stapled to the right point essentially his entire career when both he and Crosby were healthy.

No, he has played mostly on the left point on the PP since Kessel left because Sully is trying to outsmart himself. Letang is usually on the right point - for instance when Guentzel scored our first goal yesterday after receiving a pass from Geno who was on left point.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

 

[OtherThingsILike]

 

[SEALBound]

That to me has been THE MOST relevant component. Geno is now maneuvering around and almost playing a rover role instead of being stapled to the right point waiting for the inevitable 1 timer that never comes.

This is how a PP is supposed to function: you have a player who can control the pace of the man advantage by galloping around/creating space or his presence in the right circle is more of a threat vs it being on the point (or at least more of a threat than Crosby being there)

It only took them about 4 seasons to figure this out since Kessel left. So yea, Exhibit A of why so many people justifiably wanted Sully canned

I agree to an extent. The thing with Kessel was more - you had 5 lethal all-star players on the PP. You also had young Sid, Geno, Letang, and a younger Phil with a monster Hornqvist in front. With age comes adjustments. Individually, each one was good enough to make something happen on their own. If you dropped Kessel back in this PP, it wouldn't suddenly get better.

The two biggest issues with the power play this season are:
1. They simply do not move enough. They are out for Sunday skates most of the time and it forces low percentage passes because the PK'ers are able to easily block shooting lanes.
2. They pass up shooting opportunities. They look for the pretty play way, WAY too much. Because they don't move their feet, they have difficulty opening up shooting lanes which forces low-quality shots from the perimeter. I get why they pass them up sometimes but then there comes a point when a low-quality shot is better than no shot.

The best this powerplay look was against Dallas where they were actually moving their feet, forcing the PK'ers to move their feet, which opens up passing and shooting lanes.

Sullivan should have a board in the locker room and use a permanent marker to write: Power Play Strategy: Move. Your. f***ing. Feet.

It's actually baffling how bad the PP is when you stop to consider how decent it COULD be.

 

[BigEezyE22]

I agree to an extent. The thing with Kessel was more - you had 5 lethal all-star players on the PP. You also had young Sid, Geno, Letang, and a younger Phil with a monster Hornqvist in front. With age comes adjustments. Individually, each one was good enough to make something happen on their own. If you dropped Kessel back in this PP, it wouldn't suddenly get better.

The two biggest issues with the power play this season are:
1. They simply do not move enough. They are out for Sunday skates most of the time and it forces low percentage passes because the PK'ers are able to easily block shooting lanes.
2. They pass up shooting opportunities. They look for the pretty play way, WAY too much. Because they don't move their feet, they have difficulty opening up shooting lanes which forces low-quality shots from the perimeter. I get why they pass them up sometimes but then there comes a point when a low-quality shot is better than no shot.

The best this powerplay look was against Dallas where they were actually moving their feet, forcing the PK'ers to move their feet, which opens up passing and shooting lanes.

Sullivan should have a board in the locker room and use a permanent marker to write: Power Play Strategy: Move. Your. f***ing. Feet.

It's actually baffling how bad the PP is when you stop to consider how decent it COULD be.

Also, with Kessel, you had legit threats to shoot on both sides. With Phil running the show he could pass across or whip a quick wrist shot.

Force Geno to the left side and now his shot is mostly neutralized, and we all know how Letang does setting up his one-timer on the right side.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Rakell isn't the sole reason the PP is playing better. Note how the PP hasn't lost a beat with Petry going out for Letang even though Petry was playing quite well on it prior to getting hurt.

And the reason for that is because everybody on it is playing well right now.

The PP started playing better when the analytics department told MS that traffic in front of the net led to more goals, and then Sid, Jake, and now most often Rakell is planted there. Zucker was planted there on POJ's goal. Carter was planted there during the OT goal.

Sid set the example, but Rakell is going to carry most of the water, and it's up to MS to not overcoach the situation like he likes and put Rust back there to float near the half wall like he's Kessel.

 

[Flying Dego]

What?!! I’m counting on Geno playing Sunday lol…

Knowing this team...Geno's body responded in an ultra rare way from the blunt trauma the puck caused.

Doctors are working furiously on how to keep the leg.

 

[LOGiK]

With Geno's injury... I would speculate... puck to bone or knee or close to knee...
In my experience with that... over the summer I slipped in mud while running and smashed my knee cap directly on something full force slipping falling motion on hard as diamond surface....dropped me to a screaming crawl howling in pain thinking I shattered my knee for 10 minutes..... (pretty sure I posted it in the ot (like it matters...))
Knee swelled up like a balloon... couldn't walk or bend it for several days and it just healed fine after about two weeks. Of course now with a sizable calcium or whatever growth I can feel on my knee cap, which currently doesn't affect much outside of random pain/discomfort (and a future world of arthritis and what not) .... I would say it's more contusion injury than muscles / ligaments / etc...

For Geno I'd wager, depending if it's similiar to mine or if it even hit his knee (if it broke or shattered etc and otherwise...) he'd be back in 1-3 weeks.
Just my guess from what kind of looks like what just happened to me... but who knows.

 

[chethejet]

First time in three off seasons Malkin had no injuries to overcome and he is looking healthy and has more stamina to me. Rakell was such a nice add and wanted him for years. RH shot on the off wing adds to the mix.

 

[BusinessGoose]

This board has fired Sullivan 7,187 times

When you see it...

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I agree to an extent. The thing with Kessel was more - you had 5 lethal all-star players on the PP. You also had young Sid, Geno, Letang, and a younger Phil with a monster Hornqvist in front. With age comes adjustments. Individually, each one was good enough to make something happen on their own. If you dropped Kessel back in this PP, it wouldn't suddenly get better.

The two biggest issues with the power play this season are:
1. They simply do not move enough. They are out for Sunday skates most of the time and it forces low percentage passes because the PK'ers are able to easily block shooting lanes.
2. They pass up shooting opportunities. They look for the pretty play way, WAY too much. Because they don't move their feet, they have difficulty opening up shooting lanes which forces low-quality shots from the perimeter. I get why they pass them up sometimes but then there comes a point when a low-quality shot is better than no shot.

The best this powerplay look was against Dallas where they were actually moving their feet, forcing the PK'ers to move their feet, which opens up passing and shooting lanes.

Sullivan should have a board in the locker room and use a permanent marker to write: Power Play Strategy: Move. Your. f***ing. Feet.

It's actually baffling how bad the PP is when you stop to consider how decent it COULD be.

You've summed it up well. This team would be an absolute monster on the PP if they had continual motion. I'd argue it could be the best in the league.

BUUUUT...it's apparent that they are either coached or fall into a habit of being relatively stationary. So if that's the strategy they employ, they are better off having Geno be in the right circle with Sid being the bumper. The rest is really interchangeable. I don't think it matters much if it's Rakell or Jake being the screen guy. And it doesn't matter if it's Letang or Petry on the left point.

You put Geno and Sid in the correct positions and you've solved about 95% of the core issue.

 

[Pancakes]

I agree 100% on the lack of movement complaint but imo they are doing a really good job of that during the current stretch of powerplay success.

The movement over the past few weeks has been quite good.

When they struggle the movement tends to be complete shit. And honestly one of the biggest contributors to PP success for me as well is a willingness to win battles and compete. I know that sounds cliche as f*** but puck retrievals are so important to a good PP and right now we're doing a good job of that. When we suck we get outnumbered on loose pucks and give teams easy clears.

How you play with the puck on the PP is one thing, but the play without is hugely important as well. Getting to loose pucks and retrieving them is so so important for a PP.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I just remembered something about the game.


Danton Heinen sucked.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I agree 100% on the lack of movement complaint but imo they are doing a really good job of that during the current stretch of powerplay success.

The movement over the past few weeks has been quite good.

When they struggle the movement tends to be complete shit. And honestly one of the biggest contributors to PP success for me as well is a willingness to win battles and compete. I know that sounds cliche as f*** but puck retrievals are so important to a good PP and right now we're doing a good job of that. When we suck we get outnumbered on loose pucks and give teams easy clears.

How you play with the puck on the PP is one thing, but the play without is hugely important as well. Getting to loose pucks and retrieving them is so so important for a PP.

You've correctly touched on another issue, but it's really all interrelated imo.

Puck retrieval is absolutely a big thing on the PP. But when you're in continual motion, it's easier to get to those loose pucks because you're covering more area.

Think about it: you'll reach your destination more quickly if you've got a running start vs being at a standstill

It just blows my mind that it's taken them this long to start establishing some fundamental building blocks of what should be an obvious solution. I'm not kidding when I say it's been since Kessel left that they haven't been scary on the PP.

 

[Pancakes]

You've correctly touched on another issue, but it's really all interrelated imo.

Puck retrieval is absolutely a big thing on the PP. But when you're in continual motion, it's easier to get to those loose pucks because you're covering more area.

Think about it: you'll reach your destination more quickly if you've got a running start vs being at a standstill

It just blows my mind that it's taken them this long to start establishing some fundamental building blocks of what should be an obvious solution. I'm not kidding when I say it's been since Kessel left that they haven't been scary on the PP.

Some of it is cyclical. We'll go through periods like this where everyone is moving and guys are retrieving pucks and we all think they've figured it out and then we'll go through other periods like earlier in the year where 5 guys are standing still, nobody retrieves pucks, and all they want to try and do is force passes through a stationary pk formation. It can be infuriating when they do the latter.

I dunno why they can't just run a PP like this all the time. It's a big mystery to me. They know what they need to do to be successful, but they only do it in spurts.

Like for me I get it sometimes you can't execute and pucks are bouncing off sticks or you're not getting bounces etc but some things you can control like how much you move and where you move and where you try to play pucks. If the Pens focus on doing the right thing on the PP they'll have a decently successful one.

 

[Ugene Magic]

He’s on a 27pt pace at the moment with his usual gross usage. I wish we’d see him in a 3c role without that sort of dreadful usage but maybe on his next team next season. For now they’re barely getting minutes from Sully.

I think people need to understand the difference in roles. Just giving him better players or that 3c role means he has to change his game, he's not your prototypical goal scorer, his shot isn't dangerous, and he would need to take more risks to produce more knocking what has kept him in this league down which is his defensive awareness. What happens when he's put with better players whom are streaky and prone to take nights off? Right now, and before, he's been playing with guys who don't really take shifts off, battling to keep their jobs and stay in the NHL. (except McGinn) Playing with Poehling and Archibald is probably better than playing with say, Kapanen. The problem lies where TB isn't as offensively gifted and can't create his own offense enough to even threaten another team. He gets to play behind lines and take advantage of teams getting a beat down (not points or score wise) through pace of the game. They do what they need to do, keep the other team from scoring, get some zone time and eat clock. The fact you get 20/30 points from the 4th liners isn't exactly science, but that's what I'd expect from good 4th liners.

I get people want him to take the next step, but had he deviated from (probably what he was told to do) his path he might not even be in the NHL. TB took his opportunity and worked really hard at it and it made him an NHL regular. We are not talking about a 20/25 year old with immense untapped potential here. What everyone wants he's not shown enough to even warrant it. That's a offensive touch/flare. Why do you think he's doing 4th line C work.

I have not one issue with "him" as he does what he needs to do. I do believe him being paid 2.2 as a 4th liner is excessive. I thought he was in the 1.8 range and really has never had a full season to prove he could even keep up such pace or repeat it. He still hasn't.

The next team where he'd get that kind of time probably really isn't in the playoff mix and they could weather his warts offensively, or he is one of those players who gets use and piles up points due to lack there of better ahead of him. Like, say, instead of 20 to 30 points he cracks 40, and then everyone here will be like, see... But then don't track his other stats and see his defensive game went out the window. This team doesn't need him to be that, and again, not what got him a NHL regular job.

Why can't people be happy with the game he's providing?

 

[tom_servo]

First time in three off seasons Malkin had no injuries to overcome and he is looking healthy and has more stamina to me.

I do wonder who has suffered more friendly fire over their careers between Malkin and Crosby.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I do wonder who has suffered more friendly fire over their careers between Malkin and Crosby.

I'm sure there is a bunch of non-egregious stuff that isn't coming to mind. But for Malkin there is this incident and LeClair taking him out his rookie season. For Crosby there is the Orpik thing and obviously when that filthy bastard Sutter gave him mumps.