Pens too soft?

Ogrezilla

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Jul 5, 2009
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Despres becoming a top 4 d-man with Bortuzzo on the 3rd pairing would help this situation tremendously. That would give us a big physical presence on 2 of our 3 pairings at least. For forwards, it would certainly be ideal if the top 6 wing we add has some size. It shouldn't be the priority though. We need skill. We could use size.

I'm less worried about them being big tough hitters or fighters. Again, it would be nice. But the key is that they are able to stand up to other teams playing that kind of game.
 

penguins2946*

Guest
I feel like toughness is vastly overrated here. While I do agree that we lack in toughness, it's not a major issue that we should be focusing on fixing. We have too many other issues to worry about toughness. We have Bortuzzo, Despres, Downie and Sill in the lineup, we aren't in a bad spot.
 

cassius

Registered User
Jul 23, 2004
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Blackhawks have the same type of D that they won a cup with. Play the game properly and it's a non issue.
Gotta disagree.. Seabrook and Keith are tougher than nails & not afraid to dish out physical punishment.

We have Paul Martin, Ehrhoff, Scuderi, and Letang - all are not exactly punishing defensemen.
 

ProgOg

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Aug 25, 2014
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Gotta disagree.. Seabrook and Keith are tougher than nails & not afraid to dish out physical punishment.

We have Paul Martin, Ehrhoff, Scuderi, and Letang - all are not exactly punishing defensemen.

Seabrook, maybe. Keith isn't overly physical if you just look at how many hits he throws:

Since 2011-12, hits per game

Seabrook: 2.2
Bortuzzo: 2.19
Despres: 1.6
Letang: 1.4
Ehrhoff: 0.7
Scuderi: 0.6
Keith: 0.5
Martin: 0.48



SoOoJhL.png


Here it a graph about it - blue is Letang.

Hits per game isn't necessarily the way to show how "tough" someone is, but maybe some of you are still interested in the numbers. For me, toughness is maybe more about battling for the puck and protecting it, besides other factors.
 

Ogrezilla

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Keith is tough, but he's not really punishing. He's not going to avoid taking hits though, that's key. He will make the play he needs to make.
 

Your Boy Troy

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Sep 19, 2013
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A heavyweight on the team can make the team tougher. I'm not particularly worried about how talented this player is with Craig Adams being handed a spot in the line-up every game. But, it would be nice if the player can play well on the fourth-line.

With a team that is still undersized, this can be a step in the right direction.

It's a quick and easy move that pushes Adams out of the line-up. How anyone can be opposed to it is beyond me. Especially considering that the top-six needs an upgrade.
 

Coastal Kev

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I feel like toughness is vastly overrated here. While I do agree that we lack in toughness, it's not a major issue that we should be focusing on fixing. We have too many other issues to worry about toughness. We have Bortuzzo, Despres, Downie and Sill in the lineup, we aren't in a bad spot.

Hockey is a physical sport just like football. One thing I have learned watching both sports for all of my life is that "soft" teams do not win championships. None of the guys you mention are either in the top 4 or top 6 on D or O.

Things tighten up and become very physical in the playoffs. If you can't initiate against teams in the Playoffs, they will pound you into submission. This is what the Rangers, Bruins and Flyers have done to the Pens the last 3 years.
 

Ogrezilla

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A heavyweight on the team can make the team tougher. I'm not particularly worried about how talented this player is with Craig Adams being handed a spot in the line-up every game. But, it would be nice if the player can play well on the fourth-line.

With a team that is still undersized, this can be a step in the right direction.

It's a quick and easy move that pushes Adams out of the line-up. How anyone can be opposed to it is beyond me. Especially considering that the top-six needs an upgrade.

would it be Adams who gets pushed out of the line-up? If it is, then add anybody that brings something positive to the team.
 

Shaftception

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Apr 6, 2011
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So I'm no expert and I'm not advocating dumping the whole roster, but I think the main way they can fix their toughness/drive/effort issue is by getting younger.

I'm of the belief that a coach's system is the #1 factor in how well a team performs at certain aspects of the game more so then roster makeup. Sutter runs an overly conservative suffocating defensive system in LA that allows them to fill in young players and not miss too much of a beat as the system covers up for most developmental warts for the most part. Jeff Carter helped 2 rookies perform on par with most of our wingers last playoffs, and he's not the calibur of Crosby/Malkin in that regard, but the system is so structured and sound to allow them to always be in the right positions for proper defensive coverage so they can take advantage of more offensive turnovers or mistakes. And even tho they play that overly defensive system, they can still run and gun when needed as evidenced by all the high scoring games they played last post-season.

Since Johnston's system is not as dedicated to sound defensive positioning as LA's or even CHI's, they'll need to rely on speed, outworking the other team to maintain puck possession, and consistent effort for 60 mins, all of which they've struggled with at different times this season and in the 5 prior. To get back to my general point, the Pens visibly seemed to be faster, stronger on the forecheck/backcheck, and more consistent in general effort given before they won the cup. And while not every important piece was young back then (Gonchar, Scuderi, Gil, Sykora, Guerin, etc.), they just visually seemed to play "hungrier" more consistently when the core of the team was still mid to early 20s kids who hadn't won anything yet. You'd think that's an obvious statement but maybe it's more important than we think.

Obviously recent cup winners have a mix of old and young so that's not the be all end all solution, and you obviously have to have great players regardless of age, but could maybe part of the perceived "soff" issue be that they have relatively too many "older" players who have families and a paycheck to worry about than younger ones who can go 110% all the time with less in their lives to worry about outside of hockey? Bigger chance I'm off the mark than on it, but Shero's plan to sacrifice picks for deadline rentals most years I think hurt them in more ways than just prospects, they just don't have that youthful drive anymore, like the cliche of it being a job for a majority of them now instead of a game they enjoy.

Just my thoughts, again I'm no expert Mr. Sutton.
 
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billybudd

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Feb 1, 2012
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Count me among those that is not overly concerned with toughness or size on the blueline. Despres and Bortuzzo are both big, Bort's extremely ornery and Despres is developing a nice little edge. If he keeps blowing people up, eventually the referees will stop putting him in the box for it. Call it the Scott Hannan effect. Crosscheck enough guys and eventually the refs stop noticing.

Forward's a different story. Ideally, I'd like to add a top six powerforward and a mean, large guy that can skate.
 

theicebox

#MonixWatch
Jan 8, 2010
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would it be Adams who gets pushed out of the line-up? If it is, then add anybody that brings something positive to the team.

Old man Adams. You don't push aside veteran leadership, life experience, and applauded mediocrity for a slight improvement to your line-up. The Penguins are a professional sports franchise. You just don't do that.
 

Ogrezilla

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Old man Adams. You don't push aside veteran leadership, life experience, and applauded mediocrity for a slight improvement to your line-up. The Penguins are a professional sports franchise. You just don't do that.

I want to think this is sarcasm, but I can't be sure :laugh:
 

M0NTY26

Force from Ma'gorsk
Feb 27, 2010
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Hockey is a physical sport just like football. One thing I have learned watching both sports for all of my life is that "soft" teams do not win championships. None of the guys you mention are either in the top 4 or top 6 on D or O.

Things tighten up and become very physical in the playoffs. If you can't initiate against teams in the Playoffs, they will pound you into submission. This is what the Rangers, Bruins and Flyers have done to the Pens the last 3 years.

And it's what we use to do when we had Gary Roberts and company the two years we went to the Finals.

Plus, we don't have any leadership. We have Crosbys fake leadership that he's commanded his entire life because of skill, but I don't think he knows how to tell his teammates to quit ****ing off. It's sad, but Billy G was probably the last real leader we had on this team.
 

cygnus47

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Sep 14, 2013
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I agree. What we are missing in the top 4 is a Seabrook. Despres is the closest we have. If he can earn his way into the top 4, we will be in a much better place.

The only problem being he plays better on both sides of the puck when he's not looking for hits.
 

Coastal Kev

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And it's what we use to do when we had Gary Roberts and company the two years we went to the Finals.

Plus, we don't have any leadership. We have Crosbys fake leadership that he's commanded his entire life because of skill, but I don't think he knows how to tell his teammates to quit ****ing off. It's sad, but Billy G was probably the last real leader we had on this team.

When you're right, you're right:nod:
 

BHD

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Dec 27, 2009
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I agree with TTEOT. The blueline being soft is the biggest issue right now. We've improved our toughness up front since last year.

Pointed this out back in the summer. Getting Bortuzzo back in the lineup will definitely help, but brining in a more veteran presence wouldn't hurt.
 

cygnus47

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Sep 14, 2013
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Pointed this out back in the summer. Getting Bortuzzo back in the lineup will definitely help, but brining in a more veteran presence wouldn't hurt.

If Ehrhoff is our weakest guy physically, we'll be fine. We definitely do not need any additional defenseman in any way. There are lots of ways to skin a cat, none of them involve replacing the best part of our roster.
 

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
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would it be Adams who gets pushed out of the line-up? If it is, then add anybody that brings something positive to the team.

Sadly, I think Sill will be the first guy bumped. And if we're all being honest, Adams hasn't done much to deserve to be scratched since the first week or so. He's playing less than 10 minutes on most nights, and is contributing in some fashion. Johnston uses him properly. Honestly, if Johnston were around all these years, Adams wouldn't have become an issue. Ever. He wouldn't be the four-letter word he's become on these boards.

That all said, after last night's goal, there's no time like the present to dump Adams to some unsuspecting team.


As for blueline toughness, I'm concerned ONLY if we see lineups where both Despres and Bortuzzo are out. And barring injury, I doubt it's going to happen this season. And I'd prefer both in there at all times. Your move, Jimmy.
 

ProgOg

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Aug 25, 2014
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“(Despres is) moving the puck quick and making really good decisions with the puck,” head coach Mike Johnston said. “That’s an important thing for me. If we want to be that type of team that escapes our zone fast, but you have to move that puck quick. I thought his puck decisions have been good so far.”

Despres, 23, certainly has all the tools to be a top-4 NHL defenseman. Along with his skill set, he also adds a physical element. Despres stands at 6-foot-4, 214 pounds, and leads the team’s defensemen with 26 hits. He’s not afraid to take the body.

“You look at the hit totals and our defense corps, (Despres) really adds an element which we don’t have on the backend,” Johnston said. “That balance to our defense is important.”

Some comments by Johnston that fit the discussion.
 

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
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Hit totals are nice, but more important are impact hits and the threat of that. Like what Seabrook did to David Backes in the first round last spring. That hit basically swung the series to Chicago. Before that hit, St. Louis was dominating and Crawford was the difference.

Tanner Glass's hit totals were always nice, too. But any two people can have a very different take on what a 'hit' actually is.

We have two guys who can make an impact in this department from the back end: Bortuzzo and Despres. Letang's not 'soft' per se, but he's also not intimidating in that Niklas Kronwall way, either. And he seems to be playing much more in control this season. Is it the contract? Is it the stroke scare? Either way, the point being we need BOTH Bortuzzo and Despres in our lineup regularly for the blueline to be up to snuff for the playoff battles that will ensue.
 

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