Salary Cap: Pens Salary Thread: Pens Ownership "Dubas... that Coca-Cola machine. I want you to shoot the lock off it. There may be some waiver players in there."

[Victor Z]

I don't think he wanted to re-sign here. Dubas would have done a horrible deal, if JG wanted it. He sucks at negotiating deals AND thinks we're contenders still. JG didn't wanna stay.

Instead Dubas had to panic trade him for anything.

IDK if Doobie had been willing to retain on Jake (why not?) if there would have been less panic, more suitors, and therefore a chance at a better deal than the one which was actually made.

But that's almost certainly a moot point because:

1. Doobie desperately wanted to get SOME roster player back in the deal and not just prospects (even if they had been good prospects, instead of the Bag of 'Meh' we got from the Canes) because he wanted to -- or was told to -- make it look like the Pens were not giving up on the season entirely by dumping Guentzel, and thus avoiding the outbreak of empty seats @ PPG.

2. Not only that, but given the chance to get the disappointing Bunting -- his old butt buddy from the Leafs -- he could hardly pass that up. And Carolina gladly jumped at the chance to jettison him.

Yeah, Bunting has looked OK so far regarding his offensive contributions (but is defensively atrocious, as the Canes well knew). Reilly Smith looked OK for a couple of weeks when he first got here too.

 

[T1K]

Absolutely. The only way I would've considered re-signing Jake would've been at $7.5-$8.0 million per year. And I don't see that happening. At that price point, you could've still moved him a couple/few years down the line and still received similar value. Maybe even higher

Jake signed a team friendly deal that burned through most of his prime years. It’s clear he wants to get PAID with this next contract.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think the bottom line is if Jake wanted to be here that badly, he'd have been signed already. He wanted to test the FA market, and I don't blame him with this being probably the final chance at a huge deal for his career.

Best for all parties that he's gone tbh. Let him get paid, and move on.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

IDK if Doobie had been willing to retain on Jake (why not?) if there would have been less panic, more suitors, and therefore a chance at a better deal than the one which was actually made.

But that's almost certainly a moot point because:

1. Doobie desperately wanted to get SOME roster player back in the deal and not just prospects (even if they had been good prospects, instead of the Bag of 'Meh' we got from the Canes) because he wanted to -- or was told to -- make it look like the Pens were not giving up on the season entirely by dumping Guentzel, and thus avoiding the outbreak of empty seats @ PPG.

2. Not only that, but given the chance to get the disappointing Bunting -- his old butt buddy from the Leafs -- he could hardly pass that up. And Carolina gladly jumped at the chance to jettison him.

Yeah, Bunting has looked OK so far regarding his offensive contributions (but is defensively atrocious, as the Canes well knew). Reilly Smith looked OK for a couple of weeks when he first got here too.

Dubas did retain on Guentzel - the Pens retained $1.5 million.

 

[Gurglesons]

I understand the sentiment behind re-signing Jake Guentzel, but I honestly do not see a huge different between the Penguins over the last few weeks and the Penguins prior with Guentzel.

Is it really worth spending all of our summer cap space on Guentzel and hoping that the roster simply figures it out with the current d-core and likely a less talented back-up.

I guess if you can move out multiple players in Smith, Rakell or whoever, but I'm tired of Guentzel - Crosby - Rust and that will likely be what we continue to see if he is re-signed.

 

[TKalltheTime]

I think the bottom line is if Jake wanted to be here that badly, he'd have been signed already. He wanted to test the FA market, and I don't blame him with this being probably the final chance at a huge deal for his career.

Best for all parties that he's gone tbh. Let him get paid, and move on.

He was a huge part of the solution to this 2-3 years here to possibly pull another cup out of our asses not part of the problem… all these idiots are going to do instead of paying Jake & let him be the “star” of the Pens after Sid & G retire is sign like 2-3 Achari’s with that $$$ and we will be even worse for it now and in the future. It was beyond stupid to move him when you had about 9 other turds you could have wiped up.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

We traded Phil Kessel when we were actually good. I don’t get the melodrama here.

Yeah, how did that work out for us?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I understand the sentiment behind re-signing Jake Guentzel, but I honestly do not see a huge different between the Penguins over the last few weeks and the Penguins prior with Guentzel.

Is it really worth spending all of our summer cap space on Guentzel and hoping that the roster simply figures it out with the current d-core and likely a less talented back-up.

I guess if you can move out multiple players in Smith, Rakell or whoever, but I'm tired of Guentzel - Crosby - Rust and that will likely be what we continue to see if he is re-signed.

Yeah, I think it'll affect Sid's points chase, but nothing really changes from the point of view of whether this team's capable of competing or not. If Jake sticks around, you've got more of the same.

Not thrilled with the return but whatever. Had to be done. Nothing really matters because FSG is a buncha doofuses and Sully seems to have immunity, so we're gonna have to hope Sully gets sick of the decline/teardown/rebuild arc and eventually we get a mutual parting of ways.

Can't believe I have no faith that a coach manning a sinking ship with an ever-worsening, steep decline over the past six years will be fired following the team's second consecutive playoff miss. Cool team.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Whether you agree with the Guentzel trade or not, and whether you agree to bringing him back or not, here are two things that I think are absolutes in this whole situation:

- Trading Guentzel and Ruhwedel, but not trading Eller, Smith, Rakell, a goaltender, etc. makes zero sense. That to me is the perfect example of what NOT to do. This is being half-pregnant. This is spinning your wheels. This is the definition of mediocrity.

- When the off-season begins, we are going to need two top-six forwards. So, whether you like the idea of bringing Guentzel back or not (and I do because at least he has a proven track record under this coach), we need the help.


I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that guys like O'Connor, Puustinen and Puljujarvi should be part of the bottom six. That is three spots. Guys like Ponomarev, Poulin and Yager should compete for the bottom-two center positions next year. There is no reason to keep Eller. Acciari, I still like. But to me he is FAR better as a winger. You lose most of his energy and his physicality as the fourth-line center. Move him to wing and play him with young players. Smith should be traded, and there should easily be a market for him. Trade Jarry if you can.

We should enter training camp looking something like this:

________ - Crosby - Rust (he is going to be there so long as Sullivan is coaching).
Bunting - Malkin - ____________________
O'Connor - Ponomarev/Yager - Acciari
Puustinen - Poulin/Yager - Puljujarvi

same defense pairings as last night

Ned (or some other stopgap FA)
Blomqvist


I would be content (not happy) with something like this. This is the bare MINIMUM of what we should be contemplating this off-season. And under this scenario, bringing back Guentzel makes too much sense.

Can't believe I have no faith that a coach manning a sinking ship with an ever-worsening, steep decline over the past six years will be fired following the team's second consecutive playoff miss. Cool team.

It is worse than that from my perspective. It is one playoff round win since winning the cup seven years ago. AND, technically we have missed the playoffs three times including this year, because we could not beat a very weak Montreal team in a best of 5 to reach the playoffs in 2020.

 

[Victor Z]

Dubas did retain on Guentzel - the Pens retained $1.5 million.

And that was still the best he could do? Yikes.

But as I said one paragraph later, the whole retention thing was a moot point anyway -- Doobie got the deal he wanted.

It's perfect! He got the one roster player he wanted the very most which was actually the key to the whole deal, as opposed to the lottery tickets that came along with Bunting. And Doobie can also claim that there's no way to truly evaluate the deal for many years, until the "prospects" get here and we see how good they are(n't). That gives him a lot of rope, or so he thinks.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Whether you agree with the Guentzel trade or not, and whether you agree to bringing him back or not, here are two things that I think are absolutes in this whole situation:

- Trading Guentzel and Ruhwedel, but not trading Eller, Smith, Rakell, a goaltender, etc. makes zero sense. That to me is the perfect example of what NOT to do. This is being half-pregnant. This is spinning your wheels. This is the definition of mediocrity.

- When the off-season begins, we are going to need two top-six forwards. So, whether you like the idea of bringing Guentzel back or not (and I do because at least he has a proven track record under this coach), we need the help.


I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that guys like O'Connor, Puustinen and Puljujarvi should be part of the bottom six. That is three spots. Guys like Ponomarev, Poulin and Yager should compete for the bottom-two center positions next year. There is no reason to keep Eller. Acciari, I still like. But to me he is FAR better as a winger. You lose most of his energy and his physicality as the fourth-line center. Move him to wing and play him with young players. Smith should be traded, and there should easily be a market for him. Trade Jarry if you can.

We should enter training camp looking something like this:

________ - Crosby - Rust (he is going to be there so long as Sullivan is coaching).
Bunting - Malkin - ____________________
O'Connor - Ponomarev/Yager - Acciari
Puustinen - Poulin/Yager - Puljujarvi

same defense pairings as last night

Ned (or some other stopgap FA)
Blomqvist


I would be content (not happy) with something like this. This is the bare MINIMUM of what we should be contemplating this off-season. And under this scenario, bringing back Guentzel makes too much sense.



It is worse than that from my perspective. It is one playoff round win since winning the cup seven years ago. AND, technically we have missed the playoffs three times including this year, because we could not beat a very weak Montreal team in a best of 5 to reach the playoffs in 2020.

I don't think the suitors were there to, uh...impregnate us on Smith and Rakell. Probably Eller though. Enjoying continuing this metaphor.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

Whether you agree with the Guentzel trade or not, and whether you agree to bringing him back or not, here are two things that I think are absolutes in this whole situation:

- Trading Guentzel and Ruhwedel, but not trading Eller, Smith, Rakell, a goaltender, etc. makes zero sense. That to me is the perfect example of what NOT to do. This is being half-pregnant. This is spinning your wheels. This is the definition of mediocrity.

The TD market wasn't great. I think it will open up in the summer with the higher cap.

Like Zucker went for 6th rounder. Smith wouldn't have gone for more.

Rakell with term would have been a cap dump, which means we would have to add. He may be a tough trade in the summer too, which means he may end up hanging around hoping for a bounceback year.

Eller...I guess they didn't want to trade him.

The Guentzel trade was reasonable. We needed assets, and that was our only real carrot. Considering we also have a decent chance to resign him. He has a lot of pull in Pittsburgh, especially his wife being from here.

 

[ChaosAgent]

The TD market wasn't great. I think it will open up in the summer with the higher cap.

Like Zucker went for 6th rounder. Smith wouldn't have gone for more.

Rakell with term would have been a cap dump, which means we would have to add. He may be a tough trade in the summer too, which means he may end up hanging around hoping for a bounceback year.

Eller...I guess they didn't want to trade him.

The Guentzel trade was reasonable. We needed assets, and that was our only real carrot. Considering we also have a decent chance to resign him. He has a lot of pull in Pittsburgh, especially his wife being from here.

She was wearing Canes gear yesterday. Maybe it means nothing.

A ton of Pittsburghers are enamored with the Carolinas. I wouldn't mind moving there at all.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

I tallied up the work of Carter, Acciari, Harkins, and Nieto. On the year, they have:

181gp 14g 13a 27pts

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I tallied up the work of Carter, Acciari, Harkins, and Nieto. On the year, they have:

181gp 14g 13a 27pts

Gorgeous.

 

[SEALBound]

Whether you agree with the Guentzel trade or not, and whether you agree to bringing him back or not, here are two things that I think are absolutes in this whole situation:

- Trading Guentzel and Ruhwedel, but not trading Eller, Smith, Rakell, a goaltender, etc. makes zero sense. That to me is the perfect example of what NOT to do. This is being half-pregnant. This is spinning your wheels. This is the definition of mediocrity.

- When the off-season begins, we are going to need two top-six forwards. So, whether you like the idea of bringing Guentzel back or not (and I do because at least he has a proven track record under this coach), we need the help.


I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that guys like O'Connor, Puustinen and Puljujarvi should be part of the bottom six. That is three spots. Guys like Ponomarev, Poulin and Yager should compete for the bottom-two center positions next year. There is no reason to keep Eller. Acciari, I still like. But to me he is FAR better as a winger. You lose most of his energy and his physicality as the fourth-line center. Move him to wing and play him with young players. Smith should be traded, and there should easily be a market for him. Trade Jarry if you can.

We should enter training camp looking something like this:

________ - Crosby - Rust (he is going to be there so long as Sullivan is coaching).
Bunting - Malkin - ____________________
O'Connor - Ponomarev/Yager - Acciari
Puustinen - Poulin/Yager - Puljujarvi

same defense pairings as last night

Ned (or some other stopgap FA)
Blomqvist


I would be content (not happy) with something like this. This is the bare MINIMUM of what we should be contemplating this off-season. And under this scenario, bringing back Guentzel makes too much sense.



It is worse than that from my perspective. It is one playoff round win since winning the cup seven years ago. AND, technically we have missed the playoffs three times including this year, because we could not beat a very weak Montreal team in a best of 5 to reach the playoffs in 2020.

Couple things:
1. Not trading Smith and/or Rakell for meager returns like Zucker got makes total sense. Dubas addressed that during his presser. Word was, there was zero interest in Eller.
2. We do indeed need the help.
I would be 100% on board with a 4th line of Poulin-Eller-Puljujarvi with Gruden being the 13F. That assumes Acciari and Nieto are out and we can look for a better 3C to create a better 3rd line. A 3rd line of DOC-Pono-Puustinen would be an interesting young line.

XXXX-Sid-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
DOC-Pono-Puusty
Poulin-Eller-Puljujarvi

is a good foundation for next year, especially if we see a coaching change. With the cap space we have in addition to Smith, I think we can find a solid 1LW. I would not balk one bit at bringing Jake back either. I'd rather try something like:

Jake-Sid-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Puustinen/Yager/DOC
DOC-Pono-XXXXX
Poulin-Eller-Puljujarvi

That give you still solid top 6 and a much more offensively capable bottom 6, especially if Puljujarvi continues to progress. You could even bump him to 3RW and put Bemstrom in on the 4th line.

I would rather us create a 3rd and 4th line of offensively capable guys and coach them to play more defensively rather than get corpses like Nieto, Harkins, Carter, and Acciari who are "okay" at defense but are offensively inept.

The TD market wasn't great. I think it will open up in the summer with the higher cap.

Like Zucker went for 6th rounder. Smith wouldn't have gone for more.

Rakell with term would have been a cap dump, which means we would have to add. He may be a tough trade in the summer too, which means he may end up hanging around hoping for a bounceback year.

Eller...I guess they didn't want to trade him.

The Guentzel trade was reasonable. We needed assets, and that was our only real carrot. Considering we also have a decent chance to resign him. He has a lot of pull in Pittsburgh, especially his wife being from here.

Exactly. Dubas pretty much said that the markets on other guys like Smith and Rakell really collapsed and that they anticipate them having more value at the "beginning" of next season when contracts fall off and the cap goes up. Trading Smith or Rakell now or in June/July makes little difference so you may as well wait to get the best return possible.

 

[Pens1566]

I tallied up the work of Carter, Acciari, Harkins, and Nieto. On the year, they have:

181gp 14g 13a 27pts

Well, how many xPts???

 

[DesertedPenguin]

And that was still the best he could do? Yikes.

But as I said one paragraph later, the whole retention thing was a moot point anyway -- Doobie got the deal he wanted.

It's perfect! He got the one roster player he wanted the very most which was actually the key to the whole deal, as opposed to the lottery tickets that came along with Bunting. And Doobie can also claim that there's no way to truly evaluate the deal for many years, until the "prospects" get here and we see how good they are(n't). That gives him a lot of rope, or so he thinks.

Buyer's market.

Ottawa got two mid-round picks for Tarasenko despite retaining half his salary.

San Jose got a first round pick and a top prospect from Vegas for Hertl while retaining and giving up multiple third round picks. And Hertl is under contract.

The Devils only got a second and a third for Toffoli.

Getting three prospects, a roster player, and a first/second round pick for a UFA is pretty good compared to those three deals.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Good lord I went on and on about it back when he was available and I really wish now more than ever the Pens were smart enough to trade for Sam Bennett… ugh

Fully agreed. I really wanted him as well.

DK spoke to him and "On the idea of him (Guentzel) coming back after this season: "I don't know. We'll see how this year goes. I really like it in Carolina."

Sounds like he's as good as gone already. I sincerely doubt he's coming back unless Carolina decides not to sign him and/or can't afford him. Then maybe he'd come to the Pens as a plan b. Maybe.

Ye just agent doing lip service. He wants to get paid and that's fine. We can throw a 7 year offer if he hits ufa. If he goes elsewhere o well.

With all the many reports that have come out way before the trade deadline and up to and after, I get the sense that Jake’s agent basically controls him. (That’s obviously just pure speculation on my part.) So taking his postgame quote with the viewpoint that he was told what to say if he got asked a question like that by his agent makes me roll my eyes. It’s a ploy to make him come off as the good guy/victim in the whole situation.

We know for a fact he/his agent did not want to negotiate during the season (and he’s also indicated as much since joining Carolina apparently). The Pens are just going to take a player’s word that he wants to come back and will talk after the season? Yeah, then you end up like the Islanders when they lost Tavares. No thanks.

Trade was the right move and I fully agree not getting into a Tavares situation.
He played great for us and whether he comes back or for Canes or for any team. Good for him.

Trading Jake was 100% the right move, no question.

Agreed.

 

[SomeDude]

1 point in 6 games for Karlsson.

Pathetic.

 

[T1K]

1 point in 6 games for Karlsson.

Pathetic.

It’s impressive that the powerplay has somehow gotten worse. I hope we can get out of that contract, but I doubt it.

 

[Gurglesons]

It’s impressive that the powerplay has somehow gotten worse. I hope we can get out of that contract, but I doubt it.

I don't think it matters who is on the PP. It'll be awful.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

The problem with Karlsson is Sullivan. Full stop.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

She was wearing Canes gear yesterday. Maybe it means nothing.

A ton of Pittsburghers are enamored with the Carolinas. I wouldn't mind moving there at all.

I guess I missed noticing that. It would make sense that she would wear Canes gear, and yeah, IMO I would suspect it means what it means, that she supports her husbands team.

Ladies tend to be different IMO. They highly value relationships and family.

The fact we beat them, and didn't look like a mess, goes towards planting a seed in Guentzel maybe wanting to be here. However who knows, there are so many factors at play here (ie. does Dubas want him back, can Carolina afford him, etc), that anything I believe/think is pure speculation.

I would be willing to say that he will likely choose between:
a) staying in Carolina
b) come back to Pittsburgh
c) move out to California where he's from *EDIT* Okay...Omaha Nebraska. */EDIT*

If he does come back, then we can go back to complaining about GCR...maybe it is time to move on then .

 

[Gurglesons]

I guess I missed noticing that. It would make sense that she would wear Canes gear, and yeah, IMO I would suspect it means what it means, that she supports her husbands team.

Ladies tend to be different IMO. They highly value relationships and family.

The fact we beat them, and didn't look like a mess, goes towards planting a seed in Guentzel maybe wanting to be here. However who knows, there are so many factors at play here (ie. does Dubas want him back, can Carolina afford him, etc), that anything I believe/think is pure speculation.

I would be willing to say that he will likely choose between:
a) staying in Carolina
b) come back to Pittsburgh
c) move out to California where he's from

If he does back, then we can go back to complaining about GCR...maybe it is time to move on then .

Jake's from Omaha and played hockey in Nebraska and Minnesota coming up.