Line Combos: Pens Line Combo: A beautiful work in progress

[Gurglesons]

You would think so, but it doesn't feel like a common talking point.

Let's look at this another way: which core has outdone the Penguins since the lockout? Imo, none. We're the only team to go back to back, and we have a playoff streak that is what...like 18 years or some shit? No other team has matched that either.

Compared to their peers, Crosby/Malkin/Letang have no equals in terms of team success, and very few equals in terms of individual success as well.

Stamkos, Kucherov, Hedman and Vasi have 4 cup finals including three in a row. Who knows what they do from here on out too.

 

[Pancakes]

Stamkos, Kucherov, Hedman and Vasi have 4 cup finals including three in a row. Who knows what they do from here on out too.

We have 4 cup finals as well.

True, Stamkos/Kuch/Hedman might have more cups yet in them. One of theirs was a covid cup won with no fans anyways though so who gives a shit about that. I'll take our cups with real fans any day over that one. And our players have substantially more individual success too

 

[Gurglesons]

We have 4 cup finals as well.

True, Stamkos/Kuch/Hedman might have more cups yet in them. One of theirs was a covid cup won with no fans anyways though so who gives a shit about that. I'll take our cups with real fans any day over that one. And our players have substantially more individual success too

I'm just talking about historical context. No need to get all defensive.

 

[vodeni]

This is where I get iffy. I think some players don't develop into the players we want them to be because they aren't given the opportunities to develop into the players we want them to be.

Do we want DOC to be a 4th line center? If we stick him in that role, that's what he will become. With that, does Bleuger really have it in him to be a 3C? An offensive-minded 3C that will utilize offensive-minded wingers? His 1 goal in 17 games makes me weary on that front.

I say - make the third line as offensively capable as possible and bolster the 4th line for defensive purposes.

Heinen-DOC-Kapanen
McGinn-Bleuger-Carter

I think last year we were neck and neck with NYR. Add in Jarry and healthier Zucker and Rakell, and I think we have something. NYR went on to beat Carolina and then lost in the ECF. I think with a full, healthy team, we would have trounced the NYR and given Carolina all they could handle. It would have been a good showdown against the TBL. If they made it, it would have been a more epic battle between Sid and MacKinnon.

I don't see a lot changing this year. I don't think the Rangers or Hurricanes got better. Tampa will be strong, Boston is obviously strong. Then there's a bunch of question marks. I think if we stay healthy, Jarry does average, Rust finds his legs, and the PP is alive, I see no reason we can go on a run.

No matter what, we have to beat good teams to make it to the SCF. To win it all, we have to beat the best.

not sure how all of this would shake up, but out of that six, your best player is McGinn either way...he should not play on the line that has 70% d-zone starts..thats travesty. I still think that Blueger could create offense, I just think they need a solid 3line two way RW and you would have a pretty good 3-4 line.

 

[Pancakes]

I'm just talking about historical context. No need to get all defensive.

Sorry, that wasn't disgust aimed at you. I just don't like Tampa. f*** em. Kucherov is a dirty player, and Cooper always comes off as arrogant to me. And Hedman concussed Sid.

I like Stammer but that's about it.

 

[Gurglesons]

Sorry, that wasn't disgust aimed at you. I just don't like Tampa. f*** em. Kucherov is a dirty player, and Cooper always comes off as arrogant to me. And Hedman concussed Sid.

I like Stammer but that's about it.

Well that's not being objective.

I hated the Wings dynasty from day one, but they are clearly a better dynasty than this Penguins squad.

 

[Pancakes]

Well that's not being objective.

I hated the Wings dynasty from day one, but they are clearly a better dynasty than this Penguins squad.

Nah, even from an objective standpoint we're the standard bearer of post lockout hockey. As a core:

- Most scoring titles
- Most Cups (tied Chicago/Tampa)
- One of only two teams to go back to back, but ours was done with actual fans which I legit do think matters more. Nobody is gonna convince me that the covid Cup Tampa won was the same level of difficult as ours which were done in normal seasons with a full slate of games and fans
- 16 straight playoff appearances. Nobody else even comes close
- 4 cup finals appearances (tied with Tampa)

Even if you want to say Tampa's b2b cups were as hard to do as ours, we still have more consecutive playoff appearances, more individual success, the same level (or better) of playoff success.

Detroit I would give you if we're going back before 2005-6 but from 05-6 to now we're clearly ahead of them.

 

[Gurglesons]

Nah, even from an objective standpoint we're the standard bearer of post lockout hockey. As a core:

- Most scoring titles
- Most Cups (tied Chicago/Tampa)
- One of only two teams to go back to back, but ours was done with actual fans which I legit do think matters more. Nobody is gonna convince me that the covid Cup Tampa won was the same level of difficult as ours which were done in normal seasons with a full slate of games and fans
- 16 straight playoff appearances. Nobody else even comes close
- 4 cup finals appearances (tied with Tampa)

Even if you want to say Tampa's b2b cups were as hard to do as ours, we still have more consecutive playoff appearances, more individual success, the same level (or better) of playoff success.

Detroit I would give you if we're going back before 2005-6 but from 05-6 to now we're clearly ahead of them.

I think the argument could easily be made that Tampa's cups were much hard to go B2B in.

Tampa only has 2 cups in the cap era.

 

[IcedCapp]

I'm not sure we have a chance to say that against what Tampa has done since 15-16 anymore.

But, I'm not talking about that. I think during Crosby's era his team is the best. I'm talking about comparing that period to the greats like the Isles, Wings, Oilers, 70s Habs etc.

We have the least talented group with two of the best players of all time. Just curious how that gets viewed.



I mean this is a big thing with Mario and Jagr that damages their legacy.

Ahhh, I’m really bad at judging things between eras. All I’m comfortable saying is: 1) this era is the best core in penguins history (based on performance, the 90s had more talent) 2) this penguins team has, as I think you’re alluding to, been successful for too long, which would dilute their success vs the super teams of eras gone by. If their run was only 2009-2017, I think it looks better comparatively than 2006-202x. I think people would argue that if you’re at the top for 15-straight years, you probably need more than 3.

this is why injuries (and coaches and fleury) will likely dominate a chunk of Sid, Geno, and the Penguin’ legacies

 

[Gurglesons]

Ahhh, I’m really bad at judging things between eras. All I’m comfortable saying is: 1) this era is the best core in penguins history (based on performance, the 90s had more talent) 2) this penguins team has, as I think you’re alluding to, been successful for too long, which would dilute their success vs the super teams of eras gone by. If their run was only 2009-2017, I think it looks better comparatively than 2006-202x. I think people would argue that if you’re at the top for 15-straight years, you probably need more than 3.

this is why injuries (and coaches and fleury) will likely dominate a chunk of Sid, Geno, and the Penguin’ legacies

I think from an on ice perspective Crosby and Malkin have superseded what Lemieux did from a "team perspective" with the Penguins.

To the 2nd point. I think the biggest hang up I have with the core is not necessarily the length, but the complete shit or not nature of their years. They either are the best or one of the best teams in the league or they are out in the 1st round or the 1st time they experience an actual contender in the playoffs.

 

[Pancakes]

I think the argument could easily be made that Tampa's cups were much hard to go B2B in.

Tampa only has 2 cups in the cap era.

Maybe. I feel like fans make a big difference. I know analytics can't quantify it but I genuinely think a good crowd can make a difference.

Granted, that cuts both ways. No fans = Tampa had to do it without the benefit of a home crowd, which probably makes up for not having to deal with a hostile road crowd.

Either way, I'll put our accomplishments up against anybody in the cap era.

 

[Gurglesons]

Maybe. I feel like fans make a big difference. I know analytics can't quantify it but I genuinely think a good crowd can make a difference.

Granted, that cuts both ways. No fans = Tampa had to do it without the benefit of a home crowd, which probably makes up for not having to deal with a hostile road crowd.

Either way, I'll put our accomplishments up against anybody in the cap era.

Who wouldn’t. But I’m talking once the dust settles.

Realistically the Pens getting to another ECF or SCF in the next few years likely cements their legacy unless Tampa hits another SCF in the next too.

 

[Pancakes]

Ahhh, I’m really bad at judging things between eras. All I’m comfortable saying is: 1) this era is the best core in penguins history (based on performance, the 90s had more talent) 2) this penguins team has, as I think you’re alluding to, been successful for too long, which would dilute their success vs the super teams of eras gone by. If their run was only 2009-2017, I think it looks better comparatively than 2006-202x. I think people would argue that if you’re at the top for 15-straight years, you probably need more than 3.

this is why injuries (and coaches and fleury) will likely dominate a chunk of Sid, Geno, and the Penguin’ legacies

For me the bigger disappointment was the Bylsma years. The past few years under Sully have been unfortunate but we're also on the back nine of Sid and Geno's careers.

Getting only 1 cup out of their primes was very painful. Bylsma/Shero should have been able to do better with that. Granted, Sid and Geno and Letang deserve some blame too for choking in some of those playoffs. And Maf of course.

 

[Gurglesons]

For me the bigger disappointment was the Bylsma years. The past few years under Sully have been unfortunate but we're also on the back nine of Sid and Geno's careers.

Getting only 1 cup out of their primes was very painful. Bylsma/Shero should have been able to do better with that. Granted, Sid and Geno and Letang deserve some blame too for choking in some of those playoffs. And Maf of course.

The Bylsma years are much more explainable IMO.

The lack of success since 2017 is frankly a huge blemish.

 

[Pancakes]

Who wouldn’t. But I’m talking once the dust settles.

Realistically the Pens getting to another ECF or SCF in the next few years likely cements their legacy unless Tampa hits another SCF in the next too.

Honestly I feel like Tampa needs two more SCF appearances before I would put them ahead of us, and that's mainly because of our long streak of making the playoffs plus all the individual success our players have had.

But getting even one more SCF or even cup win certainly puts them in the argument and maybe you even take them. I dunno. I value a long playoff streak a lot more than I guess others do. Playoff success matters but it's extremely impressive to put together the streak of making it that we have. Nobody else has come close to doing that during the cap era. The active streak is us at 16, and next closest is I believe 8?

The Bylsma years are much more explainable IMO.

The lack of success since 2017 is frankly a huge blemish.

I'm not so sure about that. Sid and Geno were #1 and 3 in the league during the Bylsma years. It's a huge disappointment we couldn't do more with that, Bylsma/Maf or no.

Sullivan has been a disappointment since the b2b cups but our core is also in their 30+ year old years for that. It'd be nice to win another one but most elite players win their cups when they are young.

 

[Gurglesons]

Honestly I feel like Tampa needs two more SCF appearances before I would put them ahead of us, and that's mainly because of our long streak of making the playoffs plus all the individual success our players have had.

But getting even one more SCF or even cup win certainly puts them in the argument and maybe you even take them. I dunno. I value a long playoff streak a lot more than I guess others do. Playoff success matters but it's extremely impressive to put together the streak of making it that we have. Nobody else has come close to doing that during the cap era. The active streak is us at 16, and next closest is I believe 8?


I'm not so sure about that. Sid and Geno were #1 and 3 in the league during the Bylsma years. It's a huge disappointment we couldn't do more with that, Bylsma/Maf or no.

Sullivan has been a disappointment since the b2b cups but our core is also in their 30+ year old years for that. It'd be nice to win another one but most elite players win their cups when they are young.

Sid and Geno also were taking up huge chunks of the cap after 2009.

It's why an injury to either one entering in the playoffs was so damaging to the team's success.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

Nah, even from an objective standpoint we're the standard bearer of post lockout hockey. As a core:

- Most scoring titles
- Most Cups (tied Chicago/Tampa)
- One of only two teams to go back to back, but ours was done with actual fans which I legit do think matters more. Nobody is gonna convince me that the covid Cup Tampa won was the same level of difficult as ours which were done in normal seasons with a full slate of games and fans
- 16 straight playoff appearances. Nobody else even comes close
- 4 cup finals appearances (tied with Tampa)

Even if you want to say Tampa's b2b cups were as hard to do as ours, we still have more consecutive playoff appearances, more individual success, the same level (or better) of playoff success.

Detroit I would give you if we're going back before 2005-6 but from 05-6 to now we're clearly ahead of them.

Not to mention, Tampa has 2 Cup wins in the post-lockout era (and 3 appearances). So Tampa can't even be put in the same conversation as Pittsburgh/Chicago. Winning counts more than anything else.

 

[IcedCapp]

For me the bigger disappointment was the Bylsma years. The past few years under Sully have been unfortunate but we're also on the back nine of Sid and Geno's careers.

Getting only 1 cup out of their primes was very painful. Bylsma/Shero should have been able to do better with that. Granted, Sid and Geno and Letang deserve some blame too for choking in some of those playoffs. And Maf of course.

So 9-10, to me, is understandable, because, yeah, you’re better than MTL, but most teams suffer the year after a cup, and they still had a good year, and I feel like MAF really let them down in That series.

10-11 injuries.

11-12 MAF

12-13 (probably the big one) Sid’s Face + Bylsma

13-14 ???

But this is what I was saying to Pixies: if you reduce this era to 08-17, you’re left with a much-more flattering view of this team. You eliminate a lot of the one-and-dones. And outside of the last two years. Every elimination sorta made sense. The last two years were, of course, an abomination, especially when you look at how the team did as soon as Bylsma was fired, but they had a lot of bad shit happen in those few years

 

[Peat]

I think as the cap era goes on, we'll understand how freaky it is for a team this far removed from making top picks to even be in the playoffs at all.

 

[BigEezyE22]

I think the argument could easily be made that Tampa's cups were much hard to go B2B in.

Tampa only has 2 cups in the cap era.

I'd argue if the 16-17 and 17-18 seasons were each about 25 games shorter, Pens would've had a better shot at a 3-peat.

 

[Andy99]

Nowhere to put this since there isn’t a GDT yet…

 

[DesertedPenguin]

No practice today, so no injury updates.

Pens extended their road trip by a day with a detour to Montreal. Entire team showed up to support Kris Letang.

Instead, they traveled through the middle of the night to Montreal, arriving at 4 a.m. Then, they slept for a brief period of time before attending the funeral of Claude Fouquet, father of Kris Letang.

While the Penguins were on the Western swing of the road trip that took them through Las Vegas and Phoenix, some of the team’s veterans came together with the coaching staff to discuss a mutual desire to attend Fouquet’s funeral in Quebec.

 

[HandshakeLine]

That's super awesome.

But f*** Yohe with a rake, he sucks.

 

[Andy99]

Since we have no GDT for tonight’s game, I’m putting this here…

Sullivan says Jarry’s return “is not imminent” lol, even while he calls him day-to-day and CDS is playing again tonight…none of the injured players or Letang are playing, so expect the same lineup lol…the Canucks are starting Martin who killed us when we played in Vancouver but otherwise sucks against everyone else

“The Canucks are expected to start goaltender Spencer Martin. In 22 games this season, Martin has an 11-8-1 record, a 3.67 goals against average and an .881 save percentage.”

 

[Smasher]

Sullivan says Jarry’s return “is not imminent” lol, even while he calls him day-to-day

He also said "not longer-term". Day-to-day, return not imminent but not longer-term. Next-level Sullyisms!