Post-Game Talk: Pens 6, Caps 2 - The Hockey Gods Sure Do Have a Wicked Sense of Humor

[Ogrezilla]

As adamant as I am that Kuhn could do anything Kunitz could on a scoring line at this point, that wasn't my reason for bringing him up. You said that Kunitz had to be on the 2nd line because he sucked on the 1st and 3rd lines and that there was nobody else the Pens could have promoted after Horny went down. Here's my alternative:

Guentzel-Crosby-Sheary
Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel
Kuhn-Bonino-Rust

Magical. We get a better fit for Geno, the 3rd line has 2/3 of what was a great 4th line for us last year, and Kunitz stays where he belongs (if he must be in the line-up) on the 4th.

Bottom line: we had better options, but since we always shoehorn Kunitz onto scoring lines, we're going to see a lot more of Kunitz not producing in the top 6 and his defenders (not you) once again pulling the "play them to a draw" justification for his existence.



But our 2nd and 3rd lines don't have to be, as my line-up showed.



He managed not to get Malkin and Kessel's way. Quite an accomplishment. But I guess he did definitively look better than Rust's 43 second audition.



I'm glad they worked. But unlike you, I think they're a function of dropping the ****** idea of splitting up Geno and Kessel, and putting them back together got us back to level regardless of who was on their LW. Kunitz's incidental role in that turnaround will bring us problems moving forward.

If Kunitz keeps playing like he did last night (huge if, I'm aware) then I prefer the lines we had. At least until Sheary gets back on track.

And you just refuse to give him credit for doing well there last night (didn't get in there way is a big understatement), so we just aren't ever going to get anywhere.

As for the bold, well, doesn't that mean we might as well play our worst LW there?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Matt Cullen also played solid game (or even a great game) and nobody is penciling him to top6.

Look, I understand that KMK wasn't bad last game. I also understand that it probably won't be a liability this series. But with HMK you can have another line that would dominate instead of being just ok. I know, we have no way of knowing for sure but:
1. We have RS data:
HMK and KMK were 2 line combinations Malkin played on most often last season. While KMK was solid (biggest knock on them was not being enough of a difference maker, too little scoring), HMK was better in basically all indicators (CF% 53 -> 48, GF% 86 -> 75, GF60 4.6 -> 2.7, GA60 0.8 -> 0.9). Even Malkin and Kessel were scoring significantly more (PT60: Malkin 3.45 -> 2.37, Kessel 2.68 -> 1.78)

2. There is this ice time and lines cohesion factor:
I think even you wouldn't be ok with Kunitz playing 14-15 minutes ES compared to 10 he played last game. On the other hand Hagelin has shown he has no problem playing as much. That means with HMK you can send that line for 15 minutes a game. With KMK you get 10 minutes and 2 options: either Malkin plays 10-11 minutes ES (which I fear was the case why Malkin played just 11 minutes at ES last game) or you double shift him for those 4 minutes and possibly disrupt line cohesion.



Ogre is right though, they were actually quite good last night. All 3 were top 3 forwards in CF%, FF%, SF% by some margin for example and they were on ice for one goal for and none goals against. Also Rust - Malkin - Kessel didn't look good last game so it's not just 43 seconds



I fear is that MS will keep returning to HBK even though it's been shown that with right left winger Malkin-Kessel duo could be even more lethal than HBK last year and against top defences to boot. Whether the LW would be Hagelin/Rust/Kunitz seems secondary to me (obviously I would like to see Hagelin as a first choice).

I have absolutely no problem demoting Kunitz. I'm just sick of the sky is falling attitude every time he plays, even when he plays well. Fleury gets the same ****. I have wanted to trade Kunitz for years now, I am far from a fan of his at this point. But I don't just bury my head in the sand and pretend he's terrible every time he steps on the ice. Sometimes he plays well and I am happy when it happens.

Also, I don't see your point about Cullen. He's a center. If we had two Cullens then by all means, I would prefer Cullen over Kunitz in any position.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

I have absolutely no problem demoting Kunitz. I'm just sick of the sky is falling attitude every time he plays, even when he plays well.

He just has to keep it up. Fleury didnt get respect after his first two solid playoff games. Wasn't til this series when people (including myself) started to believe. I did say , with Kunitz having that much time off that it could help him be somewhat useful in his last cup run with us, I like what I saw last night. He just needs to continue that type of play. Anyone saying he was horrible are still blinded by his regular season play.

 

[905PENS]

I feel like maf is dew for a S/O or two at some point. He's played a few signature stinker games... And is known for often leading the leauge in S/O.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Oh man, Roenick on NBCSN crying about Washington.

lmao, now he just admitted that he is a Flyer at heart and hates the Pens.

crying in what way? I wish I had seen that.

 

[Ogrezilla]

He just has to keep it up. Fleury didnt get respect after his first two solid playoff games. Wasn't til this series when people (including myself) started to believe. I did say , with Kunitz having that much time off that it could help him be somewhat useful in his last cup run with us, I like what I saw last night. He just needs to continue that type of play. Anyone saying he was horrible are still blinded by his regular season play.

Here's hoping. I'm far from confident that he'll keep it up, especially if we play a team with some speed.

More importantly, I hope Sheary gets going again.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Really not many options if Sheary continues to play the way he is and Horny's out long term.
It'd actually be kind of a bonus if Kunitz can keep up with Geno/make that line an ice tilter thus leaving Hags to help another line.

 

[rintinw]

I have absolutely no problem demoting Kunitz. I'm just sick of the sky is falling attitude every time he plays, even when he plays well. Fleury gets the same ****. I have wanted to trade Kunitz for years now, I am far from a fan of his at this point. But I don't just bury my head in the sand and pretend he's terrible every time he steps on the ice. Sometimes he plays well and I am happy when it happens.

As I said I'm more concerned with possible splitting Malkin - Kessel to try to 'balance' lines.

Also, I don't see your point about Cullen. He's a center. If we had two Cullens then by all means, I would prefer Cullen over Kunitz in any position.

Just tongue in the cheek remark. Ignore it.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Here's hoping. I'm far from confident that he'll keep it up, especially if we play a team with some speed.

More importantly, I hope Sheary gets going again.

That's who I'm more concerned with. I don't expect much from Kunitz , but Sheary was great in the regular season. He just doesn't pass the eye test come playoff time. We see plenty of good players throughout the league that aren't built for playoff hockey. Hope he's not one of them. Dude needs to gain about 10lbs of muscle this off season.

 

[WayneSid9987]

As I said I'm more concerned with possible splitting Malkin - Kessel to try to 'balance' lines.



Just tongue in the cheek remark. Ignore it.

Should be pretty obvious at this point to Sully that Bones-Phil is just a no go zone in these PO's.

Ideally, my bare bones pairs would be:

Jake-Sid
Geno-Phil
Bones-Rust

I'd try not to stray away from that as much as possible but with Horny out, i'd actually bump Rust for Horny and insert Archibald for Bones-Archibald.

 

[Ogrezilla]

That's who I'm more concerned with. I don't expect much from Kunitz , but Sheary was great in the regular season. He just doesn't pass the eye test come playoff time. We see plenty of good players throughout the league that aren't built for playoff hockey. Hope he's not one of them. Dude needs to gain about 10lbs of muscle this off season.

I think he just needs to play smarter more than anything. My issue isn't him getting knocked around, it's being careless with the puck. Too many dumb turnovers.

 

[BlacknGold4life]

Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
Sheary-Malkin-Kessel
Hagelin- Bonino- Sprong
Kunitz- Cullen - Kuhny/Archie/Rowney

or

Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
Kunitz-Malkin-Kessel
Hagelin- Bonino- Sprong
Wilson- Cullen - Kuhny/Archie/Rowney


INJ: Hornqvist
SCR: Wilson, Rowney, Archibald


I also think you go with Ruhwedel on D if Hainsey cannot play but it sounds like he should be fine. I hope.


Sheary needs benched for a game like he was last year.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

I think he just needs to play smarter more than anything. My issue isn't him getting knocked around, it's being careless with the puck. Too many dumb turnovers.

Agreed, but I think him not having as much space as he gets in the regular season (reason he's getting knocked around so much) is what's leading to the things you are referring to. I could be wrong, but we saw this last year too.

 

[Clatartar]

Sheary needs benched for a game like he was last year.

This. He needs to get his head on straight. He seems very coachable and does come back from being benched well.

 

[zhenyas most fly rep]

I can't believe Sullivan went back to HBK to start the game (thus putting together a Rust-Malkin-Sheary line that I don't think had ever played together, not to mention the Sheary-Malkin combination that I can't remember ever producing results the few times it's been tried)

HBK (with a rusty Hagelin to boot) and the Malkin line were absolutely terrible and played no small part in our dismal 1st period performance.

One thing Sullivan seems to have forgotten : this season, Kessel hasn't been nearly as effective, at any point, playing on the HBK line rather than on Malkin's.
One of the priority IMO should be to find how to get the most out of Kessel on ES (Malkin will find ways to produce some, although it's certainly better for him to play with more talented players)
and it's pretty obvious to me that Kessel has been way more effective playing with Malkin even if he ends up shooting less.(who cares as long as the line produces and he plays an integral part)
Hopefully the ship has sailed as far as HBK goes.

Concerning Kunitz, the playoff version of his is IMO an upgrade over Rust on that line.
He reads the duo Malkin-Kessel much better, his movement off the puck is more in sync with them, his decisions with the puck are superior.
The line, with Kunitz instead of Rust, lose a lot of in term of speed(forecheck is most affected) and scoring touch but is better when they have possession which is much more important against the Caps as it's something they really lacked in game 1 (and this is kind of a microcosm of the team issues in this series thus far btw). Defensively I'd say it's about even(remember this is playoffs' version of Kunitz not the regular season one)

That said, Hagelin is still the obvious best fit for this line. However, I don't have an issue with Kunitz in his stead for the time being, as Hagelin clearly needs some games to get back to the player he was before the injury.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Hopefully Washington doesn't pull what the Pens pulled against them in 96.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Ogre is right though, they were actually quite good last night. All 3 were top 3 forwards in CF%, FF%, SF% by some margin for example and they were on ice for one goal for and none goals against. Also Rust - Malkin - Kessel didn't look good last game so it's not just 43 seconds

Rust-Malkin-Kessel may not have generated much last game, but the game before that they abused the Jackets because Rust can generally convert possession into production, something Kunitz has proven incapable of all year.

The fancy stats are fine, but at the end of the day more should be expected of Malkin's line. Your breakdown of HMK vs. KMK seems to support that.

I fear is that MS will keep returning to HBK even though it's been shown that with right left winger Malkin-Kessel duo could be even more lethal than HBK last year and against top defences to boot. Whether the LW would be Hagelin/Rust/Kunitz seems secondary to me (obviously I would like to see Hagelin as a first choice).

Avoiding HBK should be the #1 priority right now, definitely.

But that doesn't mean we should dismiss the 2nd line LW if we know there are obviously better options. There's little doubt Hagelin is the best choice. So why are we avoiding it?

If Kunitz keeps playing like he did last night (huge if, I'm aware) then I prefer the lines we had. At least until Sheary gets back on track.

And you just refuse to give him credit for doing well there last night (didn't get in there way is a big understatement), so we just aren't ever going to get anywhere.

As for the bold, well, doesn't that mean we might as well play our worst LW there?

Kunitz played a competent game where he made some good short range passes and scored no points as usual. It's good for him, but it's less than I expect from Rust or Hagelin on a regular basis, and it's not to standard I hope they play at for the rest of the playoffs.

Sullivan's serving up plain hamburger when he's got prime t-bones in the back room. We should expect better.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

That's who I'm more concerned with. I don't expect much from Kunitz , but Sheary was great in the regular season. He just doesn't pass the eye test come playoff time. We see plenty of good players throughout the league that aren't built for playoff hockey. Hope he's not one of them. Dude needs to gain about 10lbs of muscle this off season.

You keep saying this despite having been shown that Sheary was anything but bad in the playoffs last year, despite a) being a rookie and b) sustaining a cheapshot to his knee that hampered him 1/4 of the way through the playoffs.

So why the "Sheary has been bad in the playoffs" narrative?

 

[JTG]

At times in these playoffs, Geno has looked like Geno of 2009 when he was ripping up the playoffs with Fedotenko and Talbot. That being said, I don't think he has maintained that level of dominance yet, but if he does, you don't have to stack his line. Sully could very easily give him Rust and Sheary and Geno could make do.

 

[JTG]

Sheary has been bad these playoffs, but I still maintain the thought that if we are talking about our "bubble" guys, which one is most likely to break out and score us big goals? Sheary...every single time. That's enough for me to keep him in the lineup.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Sheary has been bad these playoffs, but I still maintain the thought that if we are talking about our "bubble" guys, which one is most likely to break out and score us big goals? Sheary...every single time. That's enough for me to keep him in the lineup.

This x1000. Sheary was a key offensive contributor all year long. Let him play his way out of his current funk.

 

[3074326]

Sheary has been bad these playoffs, but I still maintain the thought that if we are talking about our "bubble" guys, which one is most likely to break out and score us big goals? Sheary...every single time. That's enough for me to keep him in the lineup.

I think it would be a very bad idea to move Sheary based on a 7 game sample. He's been consistent and GOOD for well over a full season.

 

[Peat]

This x1000. Sheary was a key offensive contributor all year long. Let him play his way out of his current funk.

This is assuming what he needs to get out of it is game time and not rest to get his body back together.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

This is assuming what he needs to get out of it is game time and not rest to get his body back together.

We just had a lot of rest.

 

[FlightlessBird]

crying in what way? I wish I had seen that.

He was taking the Caps to task, saying they haven't/can't raise their game to playoff level. Then Carter tried saying how the Pens have something to do with that and JR interrupted him 15 times, as someone in here said. He said how he disagreed and the Caps are "letting" the Pens play that way. He was basically taking it personally how the Caps are playing because he chose them as the Cup winners. I think what he was saying was fine, until he got to the part where he said the Caps were letting them play that way.

But then they started talking about Sid and Carter made a comment like "I know you hate pumping Sid's tires." And JR said "it's not about pumping Sid's tires. It's.... " Then he went on a weird thing about being an ex Flyer and sitting at the desk, you have to be objective (well, he said subjective ) and he has to sit there and give reasoning on why he picked the Caps while they're playing the way they are.

Tl;dr He's mad because he picked the Caps to win the Cup and he has to explain why while they play like **** (even though they really aren't).