Post-Game Talk: Pens 4, Devils 1 - A Chris Kunitz Christmas Special

[Ogrezilla]

They do.

It's called the PP.

This should be the best PP in the league.

Lines are not always going to be clicking, and moving guys around to jump start them is one thing, but what you guys are suggesting is permanently putting him there.

That's a theme for failure. They currently don't have a better option to make the 3rd a strength. One where teams have to counter, or try to.

If one of these young guys steps up a little more this could be a thing.

Kunitz-Bonino-Rust has played better hockey this year than Hagelin-Bonino-Kessel. There's your better option, and it comes with the bonus of upgrading the top 6.

If we can get a Kessel-led line going as our 3rd line, I'm all for it. But if we can't its a complete waste to leave Kessel on an island like that. And currently, we can't.

I feel ya, we certainly don't agree.

I just don't see that depth manifesting to the point Kessel can be there. That's going to take one of these young guys having a coming out year. Those usually come from being used in all faucets of the game. These guys won't get steady PP time to help boost that outcome.

Even as they don't provide for a stretch teams have to respect that line accordingly. Put Kunitz, Bonino and say Rust there they might be okay, but they won't be taken seriously. Maybe if you put Hornqvist there, but then you now have taken a top six and put him on the 3rd line.

Maybe at the TDL they add that X factor. I doubt it, but it's the only way I see it happening without using current top six help.

Teams will target any line left exposed. You can count on it.

If teams want to expose a line, this year the easiest to expose is HBK. Its just not working. Its a bad line right now.

 

[Ogrezilla]

In the regular season especially, the big guns want to play with each other, score some points, and have some fun. There's less frustration that way. In the postseason, guys are much more willing to make sacrifices, and it's just a different game.

I'm fine with them stacking up the top 6 in the regular season, we'll win a lot of games that way too. In the post season, depth wins, so we'd better start figuring out how to make that work towards the end of the regular season.

Heck, it could be that Hags/Cullen/Kessel is our secret weapon this year, think about what speed could do to third pairings. Maybe Bonino handles the D zone draws if he never gets his offensive flow going. His FO% is in the positive now, he's been really coming on on draws.

It could be that HMK is our secret weapon this year too. We have enough depth to have solid lines without Kessel or Malkin. Sometimes you just need to brute force your way through with your best players.

Look, I like HBK. I hope we can make it work. Or with Cullen there. I have wanted us to try that for a few games now. Bonino has been bad. If we can't make one of those setups work, its stupid to force it though. Right now HBK is a crap line. There's no reason to waste Kessel on a crap line.

 

[wgknestrick]

No disrespect to Rust (who's been awesome this year), but there were 3 or 4 sequences where Hornqvist probably scores at least 1 or 2 of those. I get that they want another guy who can carry the puck around, but I still like 72 with 87 better if the guy on the left is Sheary. If it's not Sheary, maybe Rust makes more sense, I dunno.

Good for Ruhwedel. He's a guy I thought had an under the radar really good camp and its nice to see him get rewarded. I also liked his comments at intermission.

Rust just does not have the skill to finish on those. He needs to be the 1F more consistently with Sheary or Crosby pulling the trigger. Rust, just isn't not a top 6 talent (as we all know). Just image Crosby with Sheary and Nate G.....

Where has Kessel's goal scoring ability gone? I'm tired of him trying to prove himself as a "playmaker" on a team of playmakers.


NJD .......

 

[Ugene Magic]

Kunitz-Bonino-Rust has played better hockey this year than Hagelin-Bonino-Kessel. There's your better option, and it comes with the bonus of upgrading the top 6.

If we can get a Kessel-led line going as our 3rd line, I'm all for it. But if we can't its a complete waste to leave Kessel on an island like that. And currently, we can't.



If teams want to expose a line, this year the easiest to expose is HBK. Its just not working.

Geno's line was pretty much an Island and they made it through due to depth.

I'm not for not of trying things, I'll always be in favor of it.

Kunitz, Bonino and Rust would have to be together for a good amount of time, and produce.

Otherwise you are back to the drawing board. It's not the same, and I think you understand what I mean.

I guess I should say Kessel can be moved around without having him removed from his set position in the lineup.

He doesn't have an anchor put on his leg. They move him about.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Well... Depth has provided cups and line stacking has won what?

That's some pretty faulty logic, the Penguins didn't lose in the past due to "stacking their lines". They lost in 2010-2012 with just as good depth as they had in 2009. Just because the Penguins won with strong depth doesn't mean stacking your top-6 wouldn't work. HBK just isn't working, going back to it just because it worked in the past is exactly what caused Bylsma and Shero's failure.

There isn't a strong enough roll eyes emoji on this site for me to describe my feelings towards people complaining about Kessel in any way. Yeah, he needs to stop "trying to prove he's a playmaker". He's only a PPG player right now.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Geno's line was much more effective last playoffs than HBK has been so far this year. Geno's line was good. Not as good as you'd like for Geno, but good. HBK isn't just less effective than we'd like, they are playing awful hockey. That's the problem. If they get going again, I am all for putting them back together. But right now, its a waste of Kessel.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I feel ya, we certainly don't agree.

It's cool. It's just sports. Even if hockey is the King of sports.

Happy Holidays, by the way. To you and all. I have to work all day, today. I hope most aren't in the same boat.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

No disrespect to Rust (who's been awesome this year), but there were 3 or 4 sequences where Hornqvist probably scores at least 1 or 2 of those. I get that they want another guy who can carry the puck around, but I still like 72 with 87 better if the guy on the left is Sheary. If it's not Sheary, maybe Rust makes more sense, I dunno.

Agreed. Horny complements those two better.

Love Rust, but I don't think he helps us the most there.

Good for Ruhwedel. He's a guy I thought had an under the radar really good camp and its nice to see him get rewarded. I also liked his comments at intermission.

Yeah, he's acquitted himself well.

We just had it wrong all that time. We were looking for the 3C model when we should have been going for the 3 line model. Its clearly the only way

But yeah, I agree with your post. I am not opposed to Kessel on the 3rd (ideally, I think I prefer it actually), but not if Bones is playing like butt. Try Sid and Kessel. I would like to see all of our reasonable combinations, and our best center with our best wing is certainly a reasonable combination. With how Kessel is passing this year, and how Sid is scoring this year, I think they could be crazy good together. And for the exact opposite reason that everybody expected Also, I think Sid and Kessel could be absolutely terrifying on the rush.

I don't understand why they broke up Malkin and Kessel when they did. They were gellin'.

Good god, thank you.

It seems silly but it's such a relief knowing not everyone just sucks the Kool Aid down. I really do feel like many fans of this team have a weird tendency towards, like... depth line worship. It's almost like some sort of bizarre reaction from all those CP years of not having viable depth lines, or something.

But here's the thing... we aren't most teams and don't have to try to compensate for that fact. This team has Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin. Embrace it, for heaven's sake. Or, you know... be super weird and insist that they play with the actual depth players on this team despite better options because... balance?

It's just very strange to me and always has been. I was more than willing to give the whole HBK thing a better look. It stinks and doesn't seem any closer to not stinking. Move the hell on.

I think we're better when we can have Sid, Geno, and Kessel split up and driving their own lines. But like you say, HBK wasn't working and Geno/Kessel was.

We should stick with what's working - whatever that is at any given time - including going back to HBK as circumstances dictate.

 

[ruunto71*]

Kunitz-Malkin-Kessel 0,53g/g
Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel 0,73g/g
Guentzel-Malkin-Kessel 1,2g/g
Hagelin-Bonino-Kessel 0,12g/g

 

[Ugene Magic]

We should stick with what's working - whatever that is at any given time - including going back to HBK as circumstances dictate.

Pretty much.

I see it as boosting confidence. Geno has been playing much better for it even after Kessel's departure.

It's breaking up the monotony. Staleness that can set in.

There's nothing wrong with giving him time anywhere, but at the end of the day they need that depth being able to run 4 stable lines. It is one of the reasons they can dominate teams and wear them down. Add in spotting him with Sid and Geno can really tilt things in game time situations. That also includes double shifting Sid or Geno in for Bonino.

That can be a thing since Bonino is a PKer and if they have to kill 1 or more penalties has Bonino missing a shift anyways.

There is just so many ways to balance this out.

 

[ColePens]

There are just some really good posts in this thread (and some god awful ones), but I am 100% completely sold on trying Sid w/ Hags/Kessel. Or if not with Sid, definitely Cullen. I am intrigued and want to see it fail before assuming it will fail. I think there are many posters here who have brought up very solid arguments to at least try it out.

Would love to see Rust back with Geno, too.

 

[ColePens]

Regarding Ruhwedel: He doesn't look like an everyday NHLer, but he looks like a solid call-up who won't ruin the game for you. At this point, I think he should be the first call up every single time. He isn't great but he sure as hell doesn't cost you the game or momentum like DP/Olesky have shown.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Regarding Ruhwedel: He doesn't look like an everyday NHLer, but he looks like a solid call-up who won't ruin the game for you. At this point, I think he should be the first call up every single time. He isn't great but he sure as hell doesn't cost you the game or momentum like DP/Olesky have shown.

Yeah, he appears to be a pretty solid #8.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Regarding Ruhwedel: He doesn't look like an everyday NHLer, but he looks like a solid call-up who won't ruin the game for you. At this point, I think he should be the first call up every single time. He isn't great but he sure as hell doesn't cost you the game or momentum like DP/Olesky have shown.

All I'll say for now is that I need to see him more.

He was certainly a breath of fresh air from the alt.

Yeah, he appears to be a pretty solid #8.

Maybe. I'd like to have seen a guy with just a bit more size.

 

[CertifiedLurker]

He just defers too much. It bugs me. I love when he wants to shoot. I think I'd rather see Kessel w/ Sid more than Geno at this point. I want Rust back w/ Geno badly. I actually would like to see Hags/Kessel w/ Sid or Cullen. Something different just to see.



Here's the thing, NAO. This is a PGT thread. Hornqvist and Kunitz are actually doing well w/ Geno right now. Does it make sense? No. Do I think it's sustainable? No.

But these threads are to discuss the game that just happened. And for whatever reason, both 14 and 72 are playing much better right now.



I think I'd give it a try. If Sully is mixing and matching lines, why not give it a shot? I just don't think it will work.

I would love to see it. They were great the couple of games they got together last year under Sully. I see no reason why it wouldn't work. One of the funniest things to me is how people always talked about how the problem with Kessel in the past is his center had to do all the board work, and yet here is the hardest working board working center in the league and they've had like 2 games together under Sullivan.

 

[Night Shift]

Regarding Ruhwedel: He doesn't look like an everyday NHLer, but he looks like a solid call-up who won't ruin the game for you. At this point, I think he should be the first call up every single time. He isn't great but he sure as hell doesn't cost you the game or momentum like DP/Olesky have shown.

To be fair to Olesky though, when he had that scrap you didn't see it as a momentum change? I have to admit when the Devils cut it to 1 knowing Fleury was back there I was nervous

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

There are just some really good posts in this thread (and some god awful ones), but I am 100% completely sold on trying Sid w/ Hags/Kessel. Or if not with Sid, definitely Cullen. I am intrigued and want to see it fail before assuming it will fail. I think there are many posters here who have brought up very solid arguments to at least try it out.

Would love to see Rust back with Geno, too.

I'd at least settle with Rust back with Malkin. I think those two have some decent chemistry and injects some much needed raw speed on that line. And I would be pretty pleased to see Kessel tried with Crosby, too. But I guess I don't really understand why it's good sense to keep Kessel away from Malkin. They looked brilliant together nearly every time it's been tried... including literally just a few games ago.

And I dug what I saw from Ruhwedel, too. And good for him for his NHL first.

 

[ColePens]

To be fair to Olesky though, when he had that scrap you didn't see it as a momentum change? I have to admit when the Devils cut it to 1 knowing Fleury was back there I was nervous

It's a very limited view of Olesky, but I see a guy who can't think at an NHL level. You have a split decision to make passes or join the rush. There are times he just hits the puck to an area with no sense of who is there. He just doesn't have the NHL timing down at all. He rushes plays and turns pucks over. He's gritty, but doesn't play fast. He's not hard to play against, either.

 

[CertifiedLurker]

Kunitz-Malkin-Kessel 0,53g/g
Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel 0,73g/g
Guentzel-Malkin-Kessel 1,2g/g
Hagelin-Bonino-Kessel 0,12g/g

This is all the proof I need that HBK would actually cost this team a series if they force it and there is no improvement.

1 ES goal is pathetic, it doesn't do this team any favours to be stubborn about having "depth scoring" when ignoring the fact that HBK is not depth scoring any better than a line of grinders.

It was amazing when it worked, it's been garbage this year.

 

[ColePens]

This is all the proof I need that HBK would actually cost this team a series if they force it and there is no improvement.

1 ES goal is pathetic, it doesn't do this team any favours to be stubborn about having "depth scoring" when ignoring the fact that HBK is not depth scoring any better than a line of grinders.

It was amazing when it worked, it's been garbage this year.

I think we need to separate two arguments.

1) Sully says the Pens are the toughest to play when we have 3 lines that look like top 6 lines. He's 100% correct. Sully also says it's easier to shut the Pens down if they try to stack the top 6. He's right.

2) HBK is not the HBK of last postseason. Yes. I think it's safe to say that is 100% true. Bonino is back to how he was before taking off. Hags is really struggling to find offense. HBK is not working. We should all agree to that.

So let's try to find how we make our team dynamic with running 4 lines. I think a lot of people have thrown around some great ideas to test out.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean... of course he's right. Any team that can run three scoring lines every game is going to be extremely tough to stop. It's also going to be like finding a unicorn riding a dragon across a marshmallow ocean. In that it's impossible.

Again... I think it's wonderful that the coach has so much confidence in his roster. And I'm not saying that he shouldn't tinker in order to maybe find something close to that. But it's a dumb fantasy to hang your hat on, especially when it's at the expense of your actual breadwinners. Who your are basically telling "Here's some leftovers and/or miscasts/role players... go be superheros. Because balance."

 

[ruunto71*]

secondary McDavid

 

[NMK11]

There are just some really good posts in this thread (and some god awful ones), but I am 100% completely sold on trying Sid w/ Hags/Kessel. Or if not with Sid, definitely Cullen. I am intrigued and want to see it fail before assuming it will fail. I think there are many posters here who have brought up very solid arguments to at least try it out.

Would love to see Rust back with Geno, too.

My only issue with this is the same one that comes up every time people suggest trying Cullen as a top 6 winger or 3c: the one time he started looking bad last year was when his minutes got dialed up when we were hit with center injuries. Hes just too old to play heavy minutes and look good doing so. I prefer him carrying the fourth line which allows him to be a real difference maker. If we want to try Hags and Kessel with him, he should still get 10-15 minutes total ice time and double shift his wingers on occasion with someone else.

 

[KIRK]

I wouldn't be at all opposed to trying Kessel out with Crosby. I've been wanting to see it for a while, actually. I mean... if he and Malkin aren't allowed to play together for some reason (despite stellar results in just about every instance) then at least give him a shot with Crosby. Especially since 1> Rust doesn't seem like a good fit on Crosby's RW and 2> Kessel is being utterly wasted with Bonino and Hags.

And why wouldn't he work with Crosby?

Sometimes I really have to shake my head a little bit. I get that "depth = EVERYTHING" or whatever but talent generally trumps all. You play your best players with your best players and usually it works out pretty well. You can overwhelm teams with matchup problems and coming at them in waves. When you have Crosby and Malkin... it's also a perfectly viable strategy to simply overwhelm other teams with your top six, too. And it will always be a mystery to me why there is so much resistance to that.

Yes... I know how they just won the Cup. The Penguins kept looking backwards after 2009, as well. How'd that work out?

This is what worries me a little, especially listening to how some in the organization talked about having it figured out.

I think we need to separate two arguments.

1) Sully says the Pens are the toughest to play when we have 3 lines that look like top 6 lines. He's 100% correct. Sully also says it's easier to shut the Pens down if they try to stack the top 6. He's right.

2) HBK is not the HBK of last postseason. Yes. I think it's safe to say that is 100% true. Bonino is back to how he was before taking off. Hags is really struggling to find offense. HBK is not working. We should all agree to that.

So let's try to find how we make our team dynamic with running 4 lines. I think a lot of people have thrown around some great ideas to test out.

For this to work, you need HBK to work like last year. Or, you need to try Hags-Kessel with Cullen. Otherwise, I think you have to try to stack the top six, maybe even running HMK and adding an impact player for Sid-Sheary, with Horny on L3.

I'd also try Hags-Kessel with Sid, just to see. Maybe you get that impact guy to play with Geno.

4-6 weeks is the time frame to get it figured out.

 

[ColePens]

This is what worries me a little, especially listening to how some in the organization talked about having it figured out.

Sully said a million times that bowman told him to not look back. He's said it like thirty times already.