Post-Game Talk: Pens 4, Devils 1 - A Chris Kunitz Christmas Special

[Ogrezilla]

I wouldn't be at all opposed to trying Kessel out with Crosby. I've been wanting to see it for a while, actually. I mean... if he and Malkin aren't allowed to play together for some reason (despite stellar results in just about every instance) then at least give him a shot with Crosby. Especially since 1> Rust doesn't seem like a good fit on Crosby's RW and 2> Kessel is being utterly wasted with Bonino and Hags.

And why wouldn't he work with Crosby?

Sometimes I really have to shake my head a little bit. I get that "depth = EVERYTHING" or whatever but talent generally trumps all. You play your best players with your best players and usually it works out pretty well. You can overwhelm teams with matchup problems and coming at them in waves. When you have Crosby and Malkin... it's also a perfectly viable strategy to simply overwhelm other teams with your top six, too. And it will always be a mystery to me why there is so much resistance to that.

Yes... I know how they just won the Cup. The Penguins kept looking backwards after 2009, as well. How'd that work out?

We just had it wrong all that time. We were looking for the 3C model when we should have been going for the 3 line model. Its clearly the only way

But yeah, I agree with your post. I am not opposed to Kessel on the 3rd (ideally, I think I prefer it actually), but not if Bones is playing like butt. Try Sid and Kessel. I would like to see all of our reasonable combinations, and our best center with our best wing is certainly a reasonable combination. With how Kessel is passing this year, and how Sid is scoring this year, I think they could be crazy good together. And for the exact opposite reason that everybody expected Also, I think Sid and Kessel could be absolutely terrifying on the rush.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I wouldn't be at all opposed to trying Kessel out with Crosby. I've been wanting to see it for a while, actually. I mean... if he and Malkin aren't allowed to play together for some reason (despite stellar results in just about every instance) then at least give him a shot with Crosby. Especially since 1> Rust doesn't seem like a good fit on Crosby's RW and 2> Kessel is being utterly wasted with Bonino and Hags.

And why wouldn't he work with Crosby?

Sometimes I really have to shake my head a little bit. I get that "depth = EVERYTHING" or whatever but talent generally trumps all. You play your best players with your best players and usually it works out pretty well. You can overwhelm teams with matchup problems and coming at them in waves. When you have Crosby and Malkin... it's also a perfectly viable strategy to simply overwhelm other teams with your top six, too. And it will always be a mystery to me why there is so much resistance to that.

Yes... I know how they just won the Cup. The Penguins kept looking backwards after 2009, as well. How'd that work out?

What's wrong with them taking shifts together when warranted. That stuff happens double shifting and line overlaps with line changes.

Why does it have to be actual lineup positioning where that is how they are seen in the opening lineup?


Oh.... Merry Christmas everyone.
Philolf The red Nosed Reindeer

 

[Ogrezilla]

What's wrong with them taking shifts together when warranted. That stuff happens double shifting and line overlaps with line changes.

Why does it have to be actual lineup positioning where that is how they are seen in the opening lineup?


Oh.... Merry Christmas everyone.
Philolf The red Nosed Reindeer

conversely, why can't they split them up random shifts when warranted. That stuff happens double shifting too. Not saying one way is better than the other. I just think that can go either way.

 

[Ugene Magic]

We just had it wrong all that time. We were looking for the 3C model when we should have been going for the 3 line model. Its clearly the only way

But yeah, I agree with your post. I am not opposed to Kessel on the 3rd (ideally, I think I prefer it actually), but not if Bones is playing like butt. Try Sid and Kessel. I would like to see all of our reasonable combinations, and our best center with our best wing is certainly a reasonable combination. With how Kessel is passing this year, and how Sid is scoring this year, I think they could be crazy good together. And for the exact opposite reason that everybody expected Also, I think Sid and Kessel could be absolutely terrifying on the rush.

I think it would work if Kessel was a true LW.

Putting Kessel on Sid's RW is like when you double up Sid and Geno.

Not opposed to it in certain situations, just that I don't think that is a long-term option. Maybe one day when the Pens are a one line team and you put your best together.

Point should be is they don't have to have everything working or peaking at this time. They are all near the lead in point for the entire league. They all get their points.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think it would work if Kessel was a true LW.

Putting Kessel on Sid's RW is like when you double up Sid and Geno.

Not opposed to it in certain situations, just that I don't think that is a long-term option. Maybe one day when the Pens are a one line team and you put your best together.

Point should be is they don't have to have everything working or peaking at this time. They are all near the lead in point for the entire league. They all get their points.

Can someone explain to me why this seems to be a common opinion? Also, why does it matter if he's LW or RW? What about our best center and best wing do people think won't work? Especially with Sid scoring goals like this, and Kessel showing how good he is at playmaking?

I don't know that its the best way to put the team together, but I see no reason that they wouldn't work together.

 

[ColePens]

Kessel wasn't in December mode until they plopped him back on a line with Bonino. When he was playing with Malkin and Hagelin, that **** was lit.

He just defers too much. It bugs me. I love when he wants to shoot. I think I'd rather see Kessel w/ Sid more than Geno at this point. I want Rust back w/ Geno badly. I actually would like to see Hags/Kessel w/ Sid or Cullen. Something different just to see.

Like I said in the gdt, I've pretty much been missing every week day game with work lately. Even so, my comment is not a reflection of Kunitz's play in recent games. I just think that line will become a disaster eventually. Hornqvist has never really worked with Geno and Kunitz is Kunitz.

Here's the thing, NAO. This is a PGT thread. Hornqvist and Kunitz are actually doing well w/ Geno right now. Does it make sense? No. Do I think it's sustainable? No.

But these threads are to discuss the game that just happened. And for whatever reason, both 14 and 72 are playing much better right now.

How many games have they been played together? I think it would work if they had a grinder type on the left.

I think I'd give it a try. If Sully is mixing and matching lines, why not give it a shot? I just don't think it will work.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Can someone explain to me why this seems to be a common opinion? Also, why does it matter if he's LW or RW?

Because most times the offense is created from the R-side.

The old, swing into the offensive zone drop off the puck to the trailer on the R-side.


When do you get to see two of the top stars break into the zone and give and go, spreading out the defense?

Rarely.

We see more why Kessel works on the PP with his gifted playmaking being RH.

The Pens need that full time on the LW since the C's, both of them, go right.

The only times I see Kessel break down the LW is on the PP and when coming off the bench.

The Pens are dysfunctional with how they are made up. They are all RWers by default.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Sid worked great with both Hossa and Guerin on his RWs. I just don't see that being a reason they wouldn't work. Like, at all.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Sid worked great with both Hossa and Guerin on his RWs. I just don't see that being a reason they wouldn't work. Like, at all.

Yes. They also had the three C model rolling.

Putting Kessel up on line one or two is going to make life much easier for other teams.

There is a reason it worked and it's called depth, and in Hossa's case, almost.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yes. They also had the three C model rolling.

Putting Kessel up on line one or two is going to make life much easier for other teams.

There is a reason it worked and it's called depth, and in Hossa's case, almost.

teams win the Cup with their best players playing together more often than not. Its not some rule that we can only win with the 3 line model. Having our 3 best forwards split across 3 lines is not the norm. And if Bonino doesn't drastically improve, the 3 line model really isn't a valid option imo. I would try out other options in case it comes to that.

 

[Ugene Magic]

teams win the Cup with their best players playing together more often than not. Its not some rule that we can only win with the 3 line model. Having our 3 best forwards split across 3 lines is not the norm. And if Bonino doesn't drastically improve, the 3 line model really isn't a valid option imo. I would try out other options in case it comes to that.

Not always.

The same Hossa was dropped to line three in Chicago.

Depth has pretty much been the key factor to winning the cup. Hands down.

There is no harm in trying things, it's not as if they don't.

 

[Empoleon8771]

How ****ed is Pouliot? How ****ed is Pouliot's value? How ****ed are the Pens with Pouliot? How ****ed are the Pens with Pouliot's value?

What is this referencing?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

teams win the Cup with their best players playing together more often than not. Its not some rule that we can only win with the 3 line model. Having our 3 best forwards split across 3 lines is not the norm. And if Bonino doesn't drastically improve, the 3 line model really isn't a valid option imo. I would try out other options in case it comes to that.

Good god, thank you.

It seems silly but it's such a relief knowing not everyone just sucks the Kool Aid down. I really do feel like many fans of this team have a weird tendency towards, like... depth line worship. It's almost like some sort of bizarre reaction from all those CP years of not having viable depth lines, or something.

But here's the thing... we aren't most teams and don't have to try to compensate for that fact. This team has Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin. Embrace it, for heaven's sake. Or, you know... be super weird and insist that they play with the actual depth players on this team despite better options because... balance?

It's just very strange to me and always has been. I was more than willing to give the whole HBK thing a better look. It stinks and doesn't seem any closer to not stinking. Move the hell on.

 

[ColePens]

Can someone explain to me why this seems to be a common opinion? Also, why does it matter if he's LW or RW? What about our best center and best wing do people think won't work? Especially with Sid scoring goals like this, and Kessel showing how good he is at playmaking?

I don't know that its the best way to put the team together, but I see no reason that they wouldn't work together.

Kessel playing LW would be like Iginla playing LW. Kessel loves streaking down the right side and firing. If he's on the left side, his stick is showing to the defender, which makes his release point way different. So if we are just talking about Kessel, then it would be stupid to move him to the left. He also has to accept every pass on his backhand.

Some players just have their moves set up on the right side.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Good god, thank you.

It seems silly but it's such a relief knowing not everyone just sucks the Kool Aid down. I really do feel like many fans of this team have a weird tendency towards, like... depth line worship. It's almost like some sort of bizarre reaction from all those CP years of not having viable depth lines, or something.

But here's the thing... we aren't most teams and don't have to try to compensate for that fact. This team has Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin. Embrace it, for heaven's sake. Or, you know... be super weird and insist that they play with the actual depth players on this team despite better options because... balance?

It's just very strange to me and always has been. I was more than willing to give the whole HBK thing a better look. It stinks and doesn't seem any closer to not stinking. Move the hell on.

Well... Depth has provided cups and line stacking has won what?

We've seen both sides with other teams who do it and get eliminated all the time.

Those are one/two line teams.

The three teams who've won more cups in this past decade all did it on depth.

Teams who don't have that depth play golf while the playoffs are still going on.

There are only a handful of teams who can create that depth. Those teams seem to be the ones who make it deep into the playoffs. There are upsets, but that doesn't change the rule of thumb.

I can't believe this is even being challenged.

I guess you want Art Ross's and Rocket Richard's over Cups?

It's really looking like that is the goal trying to stray away from a winning model for any team let alone the Pens.

If you don't want depth, ask Ovechkin how it feels.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Kessel playing LW would be like Iginla playing LW. Kessel loves streaking down the right side and firing. If he's on the left side, his stick is showing to the defender, which makes his release point way different. So if we are just talking about Kessel, then it would be stupid to move him to the left. He also has to accept every pass on his backhand.

Some players just have their moves set up on the right side.

I never said anything about him playing LW. Ugene said Kessel wouldn't work with Sid unless he was a LW, and I was disagreeing with that.

My question is why do people think Sid and Kessel won't work together? I just really don't see it. I never did, and still don't.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Well... Depth has provided cups and line stacking has won what?

We've seen both sides with other teams who do it and get eliminated all the time.

Those are one/two line teams.

The three teams who've won more cups in this past decade all did it on depth.

Teams who don't have that depth play golf while the playoffs are still going on.

There are only a handful of teams who can create that depth. Those teams seem to be the ones who make it deep into the playoffs. There are upsets, but that doesn't change the rule of thumb.

I can't believe this is even being challenged.

I guess you want Art Ross's and Rocket Richard's over Cups?

It's really looking like that is the goal trying to stray away from a winning model for any team let alone the Pens.

If you don't want depth, ask Ovechkin how it feels.

Depth is important. Depth means having good players down the whole line-up. But that doesn't have to be your 3rd best forward on the 3rd line. Very few teams win that way. They have good depth players like Rust, Cullen, Hagelin, etc, in depth roles. That's the depth you need. Splitting your 3 best players like we did last year is an option, but it is far from the only option. If the rest of our roster wasn't good enough, Kessel or Staal on the 3rd line wouldn't be worth anything.

I hope Bonino and Hagelin can pick it up. I don't think we can win again if they don't. But if they don't, we have a better chance of winning with a stacked top 6 than with spread out depth. If HBK is playing like crap its not really depth, its a waste of Kessel. So far this year, HBK has played like crap.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Kessel playing LW would be like Iginla playing LW. Kessel loves streaking down the right side and firing. If he's on the left side, his stick is showing to the defender, which makes his release point way different. So if we are just talking about Kessel, then it would be stupid to move him to the left. He also has to accept every pass on his backhand.

Some players just have their moves set up on the right side.

I wasn't suggesting that they do that, just that is what this team is lacking.

That's why I say they are dysfunctional.

Depth is important. Depth means having good players down the whole line-up. But that doesn't have to be your 3rd best forward on the 3rd line. Very few teams win that way. They have good depth players like Rust, Cullen, Hagelin, etc, in depth roles. That's the depth you need. Splitting your 3 best players like we did last year is an option, but it is far from the only option. If the rest of our roster wasn't good enough, Kessel or Staal on the 3rd line wouldn't be worth anything. If HBK is playing like crap its not really depth, its a waste of Kessel.

I get that, the only issue is they don't have a better option. Should that come to light, then this makes sense.

Until then.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I get that, the only issue is they don't have a better option. Should that come to light, then this makes sense.

Until then.

Until then, play your best players together. That's the better option. If the 3rd line is going to be crap with or without Kessel, put Kessel with Sid or Geno and stack the top 6 instead. Hell, Kunitz-Bonino-Rust was a more effective 3rd line than HBK this year, and by a pretty wide margin. And Hags-Malkin-Kessel have been better than Kunitz-Malkin-Rust. That's honestly what I'd go back to for now. But I wouldn't have a problem trying it with Sid's and Geno's wings swapped to see how it works.

If Bonino picks up his game, give HBK another shot.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Nah... I just... don't believe any of that. I have nothing but love and respect, UM but you're essentially preaching coach-speak, here. Depth manifests itself in many ways. This team has good depth even without having to resort to playing one of the premier wings of this era on a line with Nick Bonino. It's terrific it worked once for a short time. We should all look at it at as one of those one-offs that a playoff environment tends to produce every year. There are always playoff heroes on every team that step up beyond their usual capabilities. That doesn't mean you try to dream that impossible dream ever after.

I love that the Penguins think they can realistically field a three scoring line team. It shows a lot of confidence in their guys. I'm here to tell you it's not actually feasible with any level of reliability. Maybe if the cap goes up another ten million dollars. But until then, serve the players that actually make this team great and they will continue to repay in kind. The real strength of a team is in it's best players and supporting them along with a solid team identity and concept. It isn't trying to get cute with lineups so you can claim that you're this close to reinventing the wheel... for real, this time!

Regardless... this is just another one of those things that we'll have to not see eye to eye on.

 

[Penske]

Depth is important. Depth means having good players down the whole line-up. But that doesn't have to be your 3rd best forward on the 3rd line. Very few teams win that way. They have good depth players like Rust, Cullen, Hagelin, etc, in depth roles. That's the depth you need. Splitting your 3 best players like we did last year is an option, but it is far from the only option. If the rest of our roster wasn't good enough, Kessel or Staal on the 3rd line wouldn't be worth anything.

I hope Bonino and Hagelin can pick it up. I don't think we can win again if they don't. But if they don't, we have a better chance of winning with a stacked top 6 than with spread out depth. If HBK is playing like crap its not really depth, its a waste of Kessel. So far this year, HBK has played like crap.

Very few teams win with their 3rd best on the 3rd line because they don't have what we have. There's not a team out there that has 3 elite players who can carry their lines like Crosby, Malkin and Kessel do.

I'd prefer
Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel
Trade-Bonino-Rust

Trade for a really good LW like a Kessel but LW. We don't have the trade chips to get someone as elite as him but someone with good offensive abilities who the opposition have to pay attention too or they'll get lit up.

I don't want to say just give us the cup but we'd be very, very difficult to stop over a 7 game series.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Until then, play your best players together. That's the better option. If the 3rd line is going to be crap with or without Kessel, put Kessel with Sid or Geno and stack the top 6 instead.

They do.

It's called the PP.

This should be the best PP in the league.

Lines are not always going to be clicking, and moving guys around to jump start them is one thing, but what you guys are suggesting is permanently putting him there.

That's a theme for failure. They currently don't have a better option to make the 3rd a strength. One where teams have to counter, or try to.

If one of these young guys steps up a little more this could be a thing.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

I agree in general that dispersing your talent on each line to improve your depth is a good strategy.

In this particular situation I'm not so sure. With Bonino struggling as he has all you are doing at that point is handcuffing Kessel. When Bonino is not playing well, HBK is just Phil playing with a guy with no hands and a guy who is struggling mightily.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Until then, play your best players together. That's the better option. If the 3rd line is going to be crap with or without Kessel, put Kessel with Sid or Geno and stack the top 6 instead. Hell, Kunitz-Bonino-Rust was a more effective 3rd line than HBK this year, and by a pretty wide margin. And Hags-Malkin-Kessel have been better than Kunitz-Malkin-Rust. That's honestly what I'd go back to for now. But I wouldn't have a problem trying it with Sid's and Geno's wings swapped to see how it works.

If Bonino picks up his game, give HBK another shot.

In the regular season especially, the big guns want to play with each other, score some points, and have some fun. There's less frustration that way. In the postseason, guys are much more willing to make sacrifices, and it's just a different game.

I'm fine with them stacking up the top 6 in the regular season, we'll win a lot of games that way too. In the post season, depth wins, so we'd better start figuring out how to make that work towards the end of the regular season.

Heck, it could be that Hags/Cullen/Kessel is our secret weapon this year, think about what speed could do to third pairings. Maybe Bonino handles the D zone draws if he never gets his offensive flow going. His FO% is in the positive now, he's been really coming on on draws.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Nah... I just... don't believe any of that. I have nothing but love and respect, UM but you're essentially preaching coach-speak, here. Depth manifests itself in many ways. This team has good depth even without having to resort to playing one of the premier wings of this era on a line with Nick Bonino. It's terrific it worked once for a short time. We should all look at it at as one of those one-offs that a playoff environment tends to produce every year. There are always playoff heroes on every team that step up beyond their usual capabilities. That doesn't mean you try to dream that impossible dream ever after.

I love that the Penguins think they can realistically field a three scoring line team. It shows a lot of confidence in their guys. I'm here to tell you it's not actually feasible with any level of reliability. Maybe if the cap goes up another ten million dollars. But until then, serve the players that actually make this team great and they will continue to repay in kind. The real strength of a team is in it's best players and supporting them along with a solid team identity and concept. It isn't trying to get cute with lineups so you can claim that you're this close to reinventing the wheel... for real, this time!

Regardless... this is just another one of those things that we'll have to not see eye to eye on.

I feel ya, we certainly don't agree.

I just don't see that depth manifesting to the point Kessel can be there. That's going to take one of these young guys having a coming out year. Those usually come from being used in all faucets of the game. These guys won't get steady PP time to help boost that outcome.

Even as they don't provide for a stretch teams have to respect that line accordingly. Put Kunitz, Bonino and say Rust there they might be okay, but they won't be taken seriously. Maybe if you put Hornqvist there, but then you now have taken a top six and put him on the 3rd line.

Maybe at the TDL they add that X factor. I doubt it, but it's the only way I see it happening without using current top six help.

Teams will target any line left exposed. You can count on it.