Post-Game Talk: Pens 4, Devils 1 - A Chris Kunitz Christmas Special

[KIRK]

Sully said a million times that bowman told him to not look back. He's said it like thirty times already.

I'm not worried at all about Sully.

I'm worried about the morons surrounding and above JR.

EDIT: Strike that. Kunitz makes me worry a little about Sully too.

 

[Peat]

I'm not worried at all about Sully.

I'm worried about the morons surrounding and above JR.

EDIT: Strike that. Kunitz makes me worry a little about Sully too.

I'm inclined to think Sully's simply playing a bad hand as best he knows when it comes to Kunitz rather than genuinely actually liking him as a player.

 

[KIRK]

I'm inclined to think Sully's simply playing a bad hand as best he knows when it comes to Kunitz rather than genuinely actually liking him as a player.

If that's as best he knows . . .

 

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

I'm inclined to think Sully's simply playing a bad hand as best he knows when it comes to Kunitz rather than genuinely actually liking him as a player.

Has Sully not heard of the press box?

 

[CertifiedLurker]

I think we need to separate two arguments.

1) Sully says the Pens are the toughest to play when we have 3 lines that look like top 6 lines. He's 100% correct. Sully also says it's easier to shut the Pens down if they try to stack the top 6. He's right.

2) HBK is not the HBK of last postseason. Yes. I think it's safe to say that is 100% true. Bonino is back to how he was before taking off. Hags is really struggling to find offense. HBK is not working. We should all agree to that.

So let's try to find how we make our team dynamic with running 4 lines. I think a lot of people have thrown around some great ideas to test out.

Of course I completely agree with that. Having 3 great lines is always more useful than having one fewer. My problem is that it doesn't look feasible, so its not really an option right now.

All that said, I didn't think they were significantly struggling at any point under the "stack the top 6" line-up card. They had 9 games in a row where they were undefeated in regulation, and allowed 1 goal in regulation in those two OT losses. It was working spectacularly, whereas forcing HBK to stay together for the sake of depth looks like a mess.

Ideally HBK would work, realistically I'd like them to go back to the line-up they used during the 7 game win streak. It seemed so unnecessary to mess with it because of two OT losses in a back-to-back.

 

[WayneSid9987]

JR and crew simply just have to ask Stat_Sam what line combos have worked this year(lots of data since Sully has scrambled the lines alot this season), incorporating the QoC, and they'd have their line combos.
Sometimes something they think is hard(line combos) can be figured out in about an hour or less work from their adv. stats department.
Speaking of Stat_Sam, i wonder if he's still helpin' out or if it was just a one season dealio.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

My only issue with this is the same one that comes up every time people suggest trying Cullen as a top 6 winger or 3c: the one time he started looking bad last year was when his minutes got dialed up when we were hit with center injuries. Hes just too old to play heavy minutes and look good doing so. I prefer him carrying the fourth line which allows him to be a real difference maker. If we want to try Hags and Kessel with him, he should still get 10-15 minutes total ice time and double shift his wingers on occasion with someone else.

My thinking on a Hags/Cullen/Kessel line is exactly because Cullen is older and could wear down. Getting more O zone starts instead of being a full-time checker would be a lot easier minutes, IMO. But yeah, certainly give Bonino or Sid/Geno some of those starts with Hags/Phil in the O zone to keep Cullen around 13 mins TOI a game.

 

[SEALBound]

There are just some really good posts in this thread (and some god awful ones), but I am 100% completely sold on trying Sid w/ Hags/Kessel. Or if not with Sid, definitely Cullen. I am intrigued and want to see it fail before assuming it will fail. I think there are many posters here who have brought up very solid arguments to at least try it out.

Would love to see Rust back with Geno, too.

I believe we have the capability (read: capability) to run 4 dangerous lines. The question we are really starting to face here is do you maximize your two stars or do you maximize the team? And what I mean by that, is I think you have to look at the adv stats of who works best with who and come up with a combination that gets the most out of every player.

For example, if you take Sheary and Horny away from Sid and stick Hags and Kessel there, how will Sheary and Horny fare with Bonino? Is any potential boost to Sid with Hags/Phil worth the drop on the 3rd line? Then the HSK line has me thinking...what has Sheary done or not done to warrant getting taken away from Sid? IMHO, nothing. In fact, I think he's been one of the best wings we have this year. That time spent together to develop the chemistry is worth something. You go HSK, you basically start from scratch again. Not saying I don't want to see it, I'm just questioning whether or not in the big picture it's the right overall move.

The biggest, most glaring problem, IMHO, is that you have a LW on the team that will handicap the line he is on...so the question, to me, really comes down to this:

If you are going to keep Kunitz on the roster, where do you put him that will "cost" you the least while also maximizing the roster?

On the 3rd line with Bonino and Rust seemed to be the best...but then you neuter that line. At best you are running 1A, 1B, 3A, 3B. With a couple replacements, you could run 1A, 1B, 2, 3 but I digress.

Regarding Ruhwedel: He doesn't look like an everyday NHLer, but he looks like a solid call-up who won't ruin the game for you. At this point, I think he should be the first call up every single time. He isn't great but he sure as hell doesn't cost you the game or momentum like DP/Olesky have shown.

I thought he's been very decent for a call up. I wish Warsofsky could make it up. I believe he'd get claimed though. In any case, I would love to get a couple of these WBS guys we have and start to ID a good 6/7 for next year just in case. Would love to get a look at Bengtsson as well. Wonder who the non-NHL PMD UFAs out there are...would love to snag a Zaitsev just in case.

This is all the proof I need that HBK would actually cost this team a series if they force it and there is no improvement.

1 ES goal is pathetic, it doesn't do this team any favours to be stubborn about having "depth scoring" when ignoring the fact that HBK is not depth scoring any better than a line of grinders.

It was amazing when it worked, it's been garbage this year.

They would not cost a team a series alone. That's non-sense.

I'm not worried at all about Sully.

I'm worried about the morons surrounding and above JR.

EDIT: Strike that. Kunitz makes me worry a little about Sully too.

Indeed. It's an interesting position for the FO to be in. They got into the situation they were in because they let Shero run wild without ANY oversight whatsoever. So obviously they needed to change that. Now I believe non-hockey people may have more influence over hockey operations than they should have. Perhaps too much. We will really know the extent of such when it comes time to see how they deal with MAF. That more than anything will let us put our fingers on the pulse of the FO.

My thinking on a Hags/Cullen/Kessel line is exactly because Cullen is older and could wear down. Getting more O zone starts instead of being a full-time checker would be a lot easier minutes, IMO. But yeah, certainly give Bonino or Sid/Geno some of those starts with Hags/Phil in the O zone to keep Cullen around 13 mins TOI a game.

I don't think Cullen will wear down. He has not shown that at all in the 1.5 years he's been here. I'd like to get a look at Sundqvist as well.

 

[KIRK]

Of course I completely agree with that. Having 3 great lines is always more useful than having one fewer. My problem is that it doesn't look feasible, so its not really an option right now.

All that said, I didn't think they were significantly struggling at any point under the "stack the top 6" line-up card. They had 9 games in a row where they were undefeated in regulation, and allowed 1 goal in regulation in those two OT losses. It was working spectacularly, whereas forcing HBK to stay together for the sake of depth looks like a mess.

Ideally HBK would work, realistically I'd like them to go back to the line-up they used during the 7 game win streak. It seemed so unnecessary to mess with it because of two OT losses in a back-to-back.

I agree with everything you wrote.

That said, now is the time to figure out if HBK gives you any kind of glimpse of last year's magic. As I keep saying, the next 4-6 weeks (really 4, since not everything happens so quickly) are going to spell out what JR needs to do at the deadline.

I still think the Pens should jettison Kunitz to a 4th line or, more ideally, outer space, add a big impact top nine (really a true top six but a guy who you could play in your top nine depending upon how things shake out with HBK) ASAP, and then experiment with the top nine combos, but I can't see them doing it. They like Kunitz too much. He makes them laugh . . .

 

[CertifiedLurker]

I believe we have the capability (read: capability) to run 4 dangerous lines. The question we are really starting to face here is do you maximize your two stars or do you maximize the team? And what I mean by that, is I think you have to look at the adv stats of who works best with who and come up with a combination that gets the most out of every player.

For example, if you take Sheary and Horny away from Sid and stick Hags and Kessel there, how will Sheary and Horny fare with Bonino? Is any potential boost to Sid with Hags/Phil worth the drop on the 3rd line? Then the HSK line has me thinking...what has Sheary done or not done to warrant getting taken away from Sid? IMHO, nothing. In fact, I think he's been one of the best wings we have this year. That time spent together to develop the chemistry is worth something. You go HSK, you basically start from scratch again. Not saying I don't want to see it, I'm just questioning whether or not in the big picture it's the right overall move.

The biggest, most glaring problem, IMHO, is that you have a LW on the team that will handicap the line he is on...so the question, to me, really comes down to this:

If you are going to keep Kunitz on the roster, where do you put him that will "cost" you the least while also maximizing the roster?

On the 3rd line with Bonino and Rust seemed to be the best...but then you neuter that line. At best you are running 1A, 1B, 3A, 3B. With a couple replacements, you could run 1A, 1B, 2, 3 but I digress.



I thought he's been very decent for a call up. I wish Warsofsky could make it up. I believe he'd get claimed though. In any case, I would love to get a couple of these WBS guys we have and start to ID a good 6/7 for next year just in case. Would love to get a look at Bengtsson as well. Wonder who the non-NHL PMD UFAs out there are...would love to snag a Zaitsev just in case.



They would not cost a team a series alone. That's non-sense.



Indeed. It's an interesting position for the FO to be in. They got into the situation they were in because they let Shero run wild without ANY oversight whatsoever. So obviously they needed to change that. Now I believe non-hockey people may have more influence over hockey operations than they should have. Perhaps too much. We will really know the extent of such when it comes time to see how they deal with MAF. That more than anything will let us put our fingers on the pulse of the FO.



I don't think Cullen will wear down. He has not shown that at all in the 1.5 years he's been here. I'd like to get a look at Sundqvist as well.

On the first thing, there is no 3rd line advantage presently. Its flat out garbage and replacing it with basically anything other than its current form would be an upgrade.

On the second thing, you're dead wrong. If HBK produces 1 ES point in a 7 game series, chances are you're done. How you can think otherwise eludes me. The whole point of that line is depth scoring, if its not scoring, and in its present form actually being outplayed, its a net negative. That's not good enough in the post-season. Barring Malkin and Crosby destroying the other team, that line could cost you important games if they continue playing like they have been recently.

 

[ColePens]

Let's move to the roster thread as we've exhausted the PGT discussion.