Penguins "to KC/staying in Pitt/not sold/whatever" thread

[GSC2k2*]

I personally think the Deposit is a slam dunk for Balsille, but we shall see. The other part (and the potentially more costly part) is in much shadier areas. If I was buying a car, put a deposit down, and then had the conditions of sale changed at the last minute in a way that was unacpetable to me, I would bloody well expect my deposit back, and I would sue if it wasn't given back. I don't think Balsille is just going to walk away from his $10 mil.

As an aside, Bill Daly was on PTS last night and unequivocally confirmed that there were no "last minute changes". People are running around automatically believing the first thing that they read, which was of course Balsillie's story.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Your use of terminology is interesting. It's "fear" that makes other markets more valuable, but, not Pittsburgh. One could argue that the only reason why Pittsburgh will stay where it is, rather than go to the KW area, is that the government has a "fear" that they'll lose their team, and has agreed to partially fund an arena, with slot licence and as well as regular operating capital from the govermnet budget, while the KW market would be viable without any public assistance.

Fact is, there are successful business people involved here, who know how to put a value on an asset. Each one feels that the team is worth a certain amount of money to them, in very certain situations. All of them involve certain external factors (like government subsidies, desire to invest in a certain community, available arenas). Those will get taken into account when someone puts a value on that franchise. Balsillie put a value of $175M before. I suspect he would have paid more if he had free reign to move the team. I suspect that those willing to move a team to Kansas would probably pay more than that.

I do not doubt that fear is a motivation in Pittsburgh too. My point is that from purely the standpoint of what revenues the Pens would be projected to have, Pittsburgh as a mature and historically strong market is far and away the best choice over KC and Houston, I am not so sure about Hamilton though there are previously pointed out other problems with moving there. Fear (or hometown toy) is the only factor that I see that would up the price significantly in bidding. But solely as to revenues generated, for the league and for whatever city, Pittsburgh is the obvious choice even if it costs the team $2.9 mil. more per year. And as I pointed out when amortized over 30 years I doubt that $2.9 mil per has a present day value of more than $1 mil. per year if that.

 

[syc]

WHY would you even bame Mario ? If it wasnt for him the Pens would have been out of town 7 years ago !!!

All he has wanted is what you guys need a NEW RINK but kick in the head after kick in the head , how many can you expect a man to take tryin to run a bankrupt hockey team?



i dont get how anyone couldnt unstand Mario's frustration .
or even blame him if he leaves .

He is an owner and has been for a long time. Some of the blame for the entire situation has to be put on him. Perhaps his downfall was being too loyal to the city.

 

[Artyukhin*]

Perhaps his downfall was being too loyal to the city.

so it boils down to blaming a man for being too loyal.?

What ever happens happens and " IF" they end up leaving ill be the last to be blaming Mario and his loyality.

I put the blame on the gov't taking avantage of his loyality to a point of EXTREME. Then pinning all his hope on gambling licence with a 1 in 3 chance . They showed there loyality time and time again didnt they .

I mean how much longer can a 45 year old building be of any value? Should have been demolished 5-7 years ago and we wouldnt even have 3 threads on Hf talking about the possible relocation in 2006.

Diffrent gov't officials i know but you vote them in power and you have to take responsibility for their actions in the end .


all Mario's " loyality" should be worth a FREE NO COST to the PENS stadium or something very very verrry close to no cost .


My plan of attack would be solicit all intrested cities .
then bring the best offer you have and lay it down on the desk of the Pittsburgh Govt and say, you need to beat this .

 

[Sotnos]

Find a rich guy who says he can keep the team in Pittsburgh, deal somehow falls through, Mario throws up his hands and says he tried but what can you do?

Just a conspiracy theory.

So are half the posts in this thread, but yours actually sticks to some facts at least.

 

[Egil]

As an aside, Bill Daly was on PTS last night and unequivocally confirmed that there were no "last minute changes". People are running around automatically believing the first thing that they read, which was of course Balsillie's story.

We will see about that in court I do believe.

 

[discostu]

I do not doubt that fear is a motivation in Pittsburgh too. My point is that from purely the standpoint of what revenues the Pens would be projected to have, Pittsburgh as a mature and historically strong market is far and away the best choice over KC and Houston, I am not so sure about Hamilton though there are previously pointed out other problems with moving there. Fear (or hometown toy) is the only factor that I see that would up the price significantly in bidding. But solely as to revenues generated, for the league and for whatever city, Pittsburgh is the obvious choice even if it costs the team $2.9 mil. more per year. And as I pointed out when amortized over 30 years I doubt that $2.9 mil per has a present day value of more than $1 mil. per year if that.

Usually, when someone is advocating moving to a newer market, they're anticipating growth. My guess is that those wanting to move to KC aren't anticipating as strong early returns as they'd see in Pittsburgh, but, with a wide open sports market and a rising team, anticipate the ability to see larger growth. The prospect of a free arena then augments whatever value they get.

As for the Southern Ontario issue, again, there's much less issues with a team in Kitchener-Waterloo, than there is in Hamilton, and the former is Balsillie's home base. If we're arguing pure revenue potential of markets, KW is right up there. It would be surviving with a complete privately funded arena (as arena subsidies will not fly up here right now). But, pure revenue potential is not what drives where teams go, it's cash flow potential. That's why markets that throw a lot of subsidization towards their teams get franchises.

And as I pointed out when amortized over 30 years I doubt that $2.9 mil per has a present day value of more than $1 mil. per year if that.

BTW, your math is wonky. You can't discount cash flows to present day value, and then amortize it back over the lifespan again like that. Either it's present day values (roughly $40M NPV), or its per annum values ($2.9M per year).

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Usually, when someone is advocating moving to a newer market, they're anticipating growth. My guess is that those wanting to move to KC aren't anticipating as strong early returns as they'd see in Pittsburgh, but, with a wide open sports market and a rising team, anticipate the ability to see larger growth. The prospect of a free arena then augments whatever value they get.

As for the Southern Ontario issue, again, there's much less issues with a team in Kitchener-Waterloo, than there is in Hamilton, and the former is Balsillie's home base. If we're arguing pure revenue potential of markets, KW is right up there. It would be surviving with a complete privately funded arena (as arena subsidies will not fly up here right now). But, pure revenue potential is not what drives where teams go, it's cash flow potential. That's why markets that throw a lot of subsidization towards their teams get franchises.




BTW, your math is wonky. You can't discount cash flows to present day value, and then amortize it back over the lifespan again like that. Either it's present day values (roughly $40M NPV), or its per annum values ($2.9M per year).

How are we disagreeing? You are speculating that someone will be speculating that the growth potential of the KC market will be higher than the projected growth potential of the Pittsburgh market. I suppose that I can admit that the entire line of speculation drawn out above might be so. Though Pittsburgh has a long history of strong support. KC may (you do not know) be speculated to theoretically do better eventually. Now that I typed that out, I am not sure what point you were trying to make. Pittsburgh is assuredly more of the sure bet as far as markets go. Though someone may speculate otherwise. Is that the point?

 

[discostu]

How are we disagreeing? You are speculating that someone will be speculating that the growth potential of the KC market will be higher than the projected growth potential of the Pittsburgh market. I suppose that I can admit that the entire line of speculation drawn out above might be so. Though Pittsburgh has a long history of strong support. KC may (you do not know) be speculated to theoretically do better eventually. Now that I typed that out, I am not sure what point you were trying to make. Pittsburgh is assuredly more of the sure bet as far as markets go. Though someone may speculate otherwise. Is that the point?

Pretty much.

Maybe we should wait until something more substantial happens before we continue to spend this much energy on speculating.

 

[OG6ix]

This team is going to move to KC, book it.. I've been saying this for the longest time.

 

[XX]

Move them to Portland, put Detroit or Columbus in the East where they belong. Move Minny to the Central and put Portland in the Northwest or put Colorado in the Pacific, Dallas in the Central and Portland in the Northwest. Opportunity to cut down on travel for some teams, especially Vancouver having a division rival right next door.

I dont want to see the Penguins move. At all. It makes me sick that loyal fans stand by their team only to watch them be ripped away right when they are starting to come into their own with the best young players the game has to offer.

Kansas City does not deserve a franchise like the Penguins IMO.

 

[OG6ix]

no owner in pdx for the pens or any team.

 

[XX]

no owner in pdx for the pens or any team.

uhh Paul Allen? Buying a franchise like the Penguins is money in the bank. They are guaranteed to be good in the near future, and fans will flock to the novelty of a new pro team and will be able to see Crosby, Malkin etc... Presto! Instant fan base. Any investor should be able to see that. The problem with them staying in Pittsburgh is the whole arena situation which is a joke.

 

[Wetcoaster]

You're right about one thing: the circumstances behind Davis suing the NFL and the circumstances behind this situation are entirely different. However, if the Pens (or the league) refuse to return the deposit, Balsillie very likely has a basis for a lawsuit to get the deposit back plus maybe some small amount of interest if he can prove that he put down a deposit in good faith and the NHL didn't represent itself and the Penguins in good faith. After that, it's doubtful he has any grounds for additional damages (even punitive).

Anything else? He probably doesn't have standing unless he wants to try and argue that the NHL's process of selecting new owners was fundamentally different for him than it was for prior sales and allege wrongdoing by the league - and even then, it's unlikely he could prove actual or future damages caused by it.

Punitive or agravated damages are likely a great reach.

However Balsillie may have a claim for loss of future profit on the deal gone south. It is a not uncommon claim in such circumstances.

The problem of course will be proof on the balance of probabilities. However given the way the NHL fumbles and bumbles and based on the account in today's National Post on how the deal fell apart, I would not consider it unlikely he could succeed in such a claim. The courts grapple with such issues all the time and with NHL revenues tracking upwards along with an increase in franchise values, he has a more than arguable case should he wish to pursue it IMHO.

Once a deal has been reached in principle, the general rule is that any conditions have to be within the general parameters of the deal agreed to. If you unilaterally change the deal then there has been no meeting of the minds and the deal can be voided.

According to the National Post these conditions were discussed earleir and Balsillie rejected them out of hand. The deal was then done and the deal was placed before the BOG for approval. It was after this that the NHL (read Buttman) came back with the previously rejected conditions.

No owner in his right mind would agree to the conditions as described in the National Post article. You would have better odds playing the slots than playing with the NHL's loaded dice on this deal.

 

[OG6ix]

uhh Paul Allen? Buying a franchise like the Penguins is money in the bank. They are guaranteed to be good in the near future, and fans will flock to the novelty of a new pro team and will be able to see Crosby, Malkin etc... Presto! Instant fan base. Any investor should be able to see that. The problem with them staying in Pittsburgh is the whole arena situation which is a joke.

Paul Allen has no interest!!!!

 

[Wetcoaster]

As an aside, Bill Daly was on PTS last night and unequivocally confirmed that there were no "last minute changes". People are running around automatically believing the first thing that they read, which was of course Balsillie's story.

We are locking out the players so that fans will have affordable tickets????????

 

[XX]

Paul Allen has no interest!!!!

Paul Allen is a businessman. He is interested in making money and investing his money so the government cant tax the **** out of it. If bringing an NHL franchise to Portland gets him positive publicity, a tax shelter, and a potentially mind blowing ROI, he should be asking where to sign. Mario had a tough time finding a buyer because of the stipulation they couldn't move. Nobody wants a franchise stuck to a 45 year old Arena in a city that refuses to give them a new one.

 

[GWhale*]

I agree with the other Whalers fan. They should keep the Penguins in Pittsburgh. I've never been to the Igloo, but I doubt it's such a horrible place that it cannot be used.

 

[OG6ix]

Paul Allen is a businessman. He is interested in making money and investing his money so the government cant tax the **** out of it. If bringing an NHL franchise to Portland gets him positive publicity, a tax shelter, and a potentially mind blowing ROI, he should be asking where to sign. Mario had a tough time finding a buyer because of the stipulation they couldn't move. Nobody wants a franchise stuck to a 45 year old Arena in a city that refuses to give them a new one.

Paul is just waiting patiently to rid himself of the Blazers, he doesn't own the arena anymore, how exactly is this going to be a money maker? I live here, it aint going to happen.`

 

[CaptBrannigan]

Move them to Portland, put Detroit or Columbus in the East where they belong. Move Minny to the Central and put Portland in the Northwest or put Colorado in the Pacific, Dallas in the Central and Portland in the Northwest. Opportunity to cut down on travel for some teams, especially Vancouver having a division rival right next door.

I dont want to see the Penguins move. At all. It makes me sick that loyal fans stand by their team only to watch them be ripped away right when they are starting to come into their own with the best young players the game has to offer.

Kansas City does not deserve a franchise like the Penguins IMO.

I don't see it. I don't see what makes KC a non-option, especially for the likes of Portland.

 

[Clarence Beeks]

I personally think the Deposit is a slam dunk for Balsille, but we shall see. The other part (and the potentially more costly part) is in much shadier areas. If I was buying a car, put a deposit down, and then had the conditions of sale changed at the last minute in a way that was unacpetable to me, I would bloody well expect my deposit back, and I would sue if it wasn't given back. I don't think Balsille is just going to walk away from his $10 mil.

I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but the court's don't care what you "personally think". As I said in my previous post, you yourself are the one who admitted that you aren't a lawyer. This is a legal issue. Take my opinion on this or leave it, but I do know what I'm talking about. The car comparison is a moot point, as it is a different type of deposit. In this case, the deposit was of the "pay to play" type(i.e. pay to have the exclusive negotiating rights - also called an option), and is therefore non-refundable when the depositor is the one who voids the contract. You can obviously have your opinion on the matter, but you really should know that you have no idea, at least legally, what you are talking about.

 

[Clarence Beeks]

Punitive or agravated damages are likely a great reach.

Actually, the chance that a court would award punitive damages in this case is zero. Court's don't award punitive damages for breach of contract.

 

[Egil]

I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but the court's don't care what you "personally think". As I said in my previous post, you yourself are the one who admitted that you aren't a lawyer. This is a legal issue. Take my opinion on this or leave it, but I do know what I'm talking about. The car comparison is a moot point, as it is a different type of deposit. In this case, the deposit was of the "pay to play" type(i.e. pay to have the exclusive negotiating rights - also called an option), and is therefore non-refundable when the depositor is the one who voids the contract. You can obviously have your opinion on the matter, but you really should know that you have no idea, at least legally, what you are talking about.

I know enough about legal matters to know that any outsider claiming to know the answer with absolute certainty on something that they don't know the details (which are in dispute to boot) is talking out their arse.

 

[Clarence Beeks]

I know enough about legal matters to know that any outsider claiming to know the answer with absolute certainty on something that they don't know the details (which are in dispute to boot) is talking out their arse.

You go right ahead and think that. I'll remember to laugh at you when this is resolved. The details may be in dispute, but the substantive issues of law are not. When the substantive issues of law are not in dispute, it's pretty easy to predict the legal outcome. I do appreciate your continued ignorance on this though. Just remember, there is a reason why clients hire lawyers (like me) and not arm-chair quarterbacks (like you) to litigate their disputes. Nice try though.

 

[reidjr]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Montreal and Toronto are better markets.

Not so toronto is a good nhl market but not a good hockey market.