Penguins "to KC/staying in Pitt/not sold/whatever" thread

[guinness]

The city has to be stupid, I know that baseball and football are more popular, but if those teams can get new stadiums without all this heartbreak, maybe the Pens should just move somewhere else where local governments are more willing to have an NHL team.

While the fans seem to care, the government doesn't seem to in the slightest.

 

[discostu]

NOT in the least.

Basically, the deal Mario was looking for was the one where the Pens stay in Pittsburg.

The Penguins are worth less money in Pittsburg then elsewhere...

If all owner is going ot do is move them, why wouldnt Mario just pocket that money rather then give it to someone else?

Thats the only sense.

If that was the case, then, Mario and company shouldn't have agreed to the sale to Balsillie in the first place. When they first agreed to the sale, there was a known risk that the IOC deal may not happen. There was also no negotiated terms on Plan B, so, there was no guarantee there, that the team was staying.

The only way to guarantee that the team won't move, is to retain ownership, which is what they're doing now. However, they are exploring the possility of leavingUnfortunately, this has only happened after they initially agreed to a sale, which is where things get tricky. It's a back-tracking in position, IMO.

Where it's hypocritical, IMHO, is that Mario didn't want to own the team through this period of uncertainty, but, he wanted to control the ultimate outcome. He seemed angry that Balsillie would have the gall to consider relocation, but, he is doing the same.

 

[go_leafs_go02]

The city has to be stupid, I know that baseball and football are more popular, but if those teams can get new stadiums without all this heartbreak, maybe the Pens should just move somewhere else where local governments are more willing to have an NHL team.

While the fans seem to care, the government doesn't seem to in the slightest.

exactly. I can see the draw for a baseball stadium somewhat, because they play 80 or some odd games there per season. meanwhile some huge football stadium has 8 home games per year! of course it is used for other events, but in comparison to an indoor entertainment venue, the usage is quite low.

And yes, i know how big the NFL is there, and of course, hosting that ONE Super Bowl makes it all worth it. I just look around, seeing all these costly renovations of NFL stadiums or reconstructions that are a decade or two old. And I completely realize that Three Rivers Stadium became completely obsolete and needed to be replaced. That's fine with me. I just don't see how a facility older than Three Rivers (being the Igloo) is still running with no closure in sight.

I'd love to see a new arena in Pittsburgh. They deserve one.

 

[davemess]

Perhaps, but, the way that Mario seemed to take offence at the possibility of Balsillie moving the team, when he's now willing to do the same, seems a little hypocritical to me.

There is a difference between wanting to move the team and being willing to if all else fails.

Besides at this point Mario has to say he is willing to move the team in an effort to help it stay (to put Pressure on the local Politians).

 

[Jaded-Fan]

If that was the case, then, Mario and company shouldn't have agreed to the sale to Balsillie in the first place. When they first agreed to the sale, there was a known risk that the IOC deal may not happen. There was also no negotiated terms on Plan B, so, there was no guarantee there, that the team was staying.

The only way to guarantee that the team won't move, is to retain ownership, which is what they're doing now. However, they are exploring the possility of leavingUnfortunately, this has only happened after they initially agreed to a sale, which is where things get tricky. It's a back-tracking in position, IMO.

Where it's hypocritical, IMHO, is that Mario didn't want to own the team through this period of uncertainty, but, he wanted to control the ultimate outcome. He seemed angry that Balsillie would have the gall to consider relocation, but, he is doing the same.

How do you know this? Yes, yes, I read the statement too. Bettman's as well. But even if hypothetically both were firmly committed to the team staying, they are negotiating the current offer of having to pay $2.9 mil. over 30 years (+$8.5 mil. up front). Suppose that Mario and the Pens would stay if the commitment were reduced to no up front and a mere $1 mil per year? Remember $1 mil per year by year 30 would be worth about $100,000 present day value so is not much but would give the state an out to say the Pens are paying something. With revenue sharing, a cap, it really would not be a big burden and with the local market being mature and strong and KC/Houston being huge unknowns, likely would be more than made up by staying. So not an unreasonable hypothetical. Now with all that said, if that was their intent, would Mario and Bettman be saying anything at all different than they have?

I am not saying that hypothetical is the case. But what I am saying is to use those statements as proof on any actual intent either way is silly. It is impossible to know whether Mario is right now truly exploring moving the team or is using it for now as leverage.

 

[WheatiesHockey]

And now on to the top secret Plan B.
It looks like everyone wants a sale except potential buyers.
The "free arena" deal sounded almost too good to be true and maybe it was just that. Pittsburgh is a great hockey market with an aging arena. There really is not a good reason to move the franchise other than the financing and building of an up to date facility.
Pulling the team off the market is actually a good idea. Wait until some worthwhile proposals come forward.

 

[Artyukhin*]

seems the $$$ comes easier for certian teams and wow 4 million doesnt go far now a days does it



http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/dailycourier/news/mtpleasant/s_485229.html


By Andrew Conte
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Thursday, December 21, 2006

The Pittsburgh Steelers are getting a new HDTV for Heinz Field

The city-county Sports and Exhibition Authority agreed today to pay $1.9 million toward a new scoreboard for the south end of the stadium. The team will pick up the rest of the $2.4 million cost.

 

[Clarence Beeks]

You're right about one thing: the circumstances behind Davis suing the NFL and the circumstances behind this situation are entirely different. However, if the Pens (or the league) refuse to return the deposit, Balsillie very likely has a basis for a lawsuit to get the deposit back plus maybe some small amount of interest if he can prove that he put down a deposit in good faith and the NHL didn't represent itself and the Penguins in good faith. After that, it's doubtful he has any grounds for additional damages (even punitive).

Anything else? He probably doesn't have standing unless he wants to try and argue that the NHL's process of selecting new owners was fundamentally different for him than it was for prior sales and allege wrongdoing by the league - and even then, it's unlikely he could prove actual or future damages caused by it.

I wasn't saying that Balsillie won't sue. I was saying that he wouldn't win. He wouldn't win against the NHL or the Penguins.

 

[Egil]

I wasn't saying that Balsillie won't sue. I was saying that he wouldn't win. He wouldn't win against the NHL or the Penguins.

If what Balsille says is true I don't see how he doesn't get his deposit back at a minumum. I don't see how you can possibly say that he would lose that case for sure.

 

[Clarence Beeks]

If the NHL imposed Conditions on Balsille that they won't impose on any other ownership group, that is the basis of a lawsuit. If the NHL negotiatied in bad faith with the last minute provisions, then Balsille is entitled to his deposit. You can't change the terms at the last second and keep the other guys money.

Basis for a lawsuit, yes. Ok, so his suit would get past summary judgment. No way he would win though. The NHL/Penguins were absolutely free to change the terms up until the point that the contract terms became final, which they clearly did not in this case. They may have agreed in principal, but they agreed in principal on terms that were not final. There is no basis that the NHL negotiated in bad faith, and that is a very difficult claim to prove in a lawsuit. Feel free to disagree if you'd like, but you yourself admitted that you weren't a lawyer...

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Poor Pens fans. I experienced the same thing as an Expos fan, where the owners lied about building a new stadium. Although not the same exact situation, Penguins face relocation.

If relocation were to happen, I'd love to see a team in Winnipeg, although it seems Bettman's sole intent is to not have a team move to Canada.

If no sale is involved, Bettman is powerless.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

"Lemieux can use relocation as a powerful bargaining chip and thus apply even more pressure on government officials to reach a deal quickly. Privately, Lemieux group executives have said the team would relocate only if it became certain there would be no new arena.

NHL commissioner Gary Bettman met recently in Pittsburgh with Onorato and Ravenstahl, presumably to discuss how Plan B would work if the Isle of Capri wasn't chosen.

Despite the Penguins' longstanding arena issues, Pittsburgh remains one of the NHL's strongest U.S. markets. The Penguins, who have no NBA team in town to draw away attention and fans, played to 92 percent of arena capacity last season, despite a fourth consecutive last-place finish.

Ticket sales are strong for the rest of this season. TV ratings are also among the highest of any U.S. city.

Bettman's desire to keep the Penguins in Pittsburgh is one reason he wouldn't allow the sale to go through without strong contract language that prevented Balsillie from moving the team."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2704968

 

[discostu]

How do you know this? Yes, yes, I read the statement too.

I don't, and, when it comes to what people's motivations are, none of us can really know. I'm making my guess on what's occuring, based on my interpretation of the events.

I think Mario is the most likely person to negotiate a Plan B. He wants the team in Pittsburgh, and, I think he has realized, that if he sells the team to anyone, there's a very good chance that despite paying lip service to the contrary, they can enter a Plan B negotiations with no intention of actually staying in Pittsburgh. When talks break off, they'll move it to whatever location they originally had in mind.

But, I do believe that Mario is strongly considering moving. He's not excited about it, but, I suspect that there is a feeling that he can't protect the team forever. He's never wanted to be an owner, but, his loyalty to the team has always been high, and he's made the sacrifices to keep the team there. But, the second that he hands it off to someone else, that whoever that person is, will just turn around and try to move it anyways. With all that has gone on, I have to imagine that the cynicism is probably growing in Mario regarding potential owners.

For the record, and to get me back in the good books of Pittsburgh fans, who I'm spending a lot of time disagreeing with, despite having nothing but sympathy for in this situation, the scenario that I'd most like to see is Mario decide that he's okay being the primary owner of the team, negotiates a solid Plan B, and retains the team for the next 25 years, where he sells it to a certain young man who is looking to invest the millions of dollars that he's made in his hockey playing career in Pittsburgh.

 

[Whalerfan11]

I wouldn't worry too much Penguins fans. In the upcoming weeks you will hear places that the team might move to. I think KC will be a bargaining chip for Mario. I think it will play out like a similiar situation that happened in Hartford after the Whalers left. Bob Kraft, owner of the Patriots, used Hartford as a bargaining chip to get a new stadium in Foxboro. The deal was supposed to be done to have the Patriots moving to Hartford! The arena plans had been written and Hartford thought they landed the NFL. But in the end Hartford got Kraft the deal he wanted in Mass..I suspect KC will be the Hartford in this whole process. The fact that there is a arena there will actually help Mario get the most help out of the politicians in Pittsburgh.

 

[Shelby-villains]

Mario didn't put the restrictions in, but, the league did. They wanted Balsillie to agree to not move the team under any condition, and, that the league reserved the right to revoke the franchise. Mario seemed to support the idea though, as, he was vocal that he was happy that the deal was dead with Balsillie.

Balsillie didn't appear to have any problems with keeping the team in Pittsburgh if teh IOC plan went through. It was what would happen if it didn't, that killed the deal. The NHL wanted a guaranteed agreement from him to keep the team there, but, they do not seem concerned about getting the same guarantee from any other owner.

Mario had nothing to do with the NHL's list of demands nor did he express any happiness regarding the deal falling through (quite the opposite actually). You are making these assumptions based on no evidence whatsoever.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I don't, and, when it comes to what people's motivations are, none of us can really know. I'm making my guess on what's occuring, based on my interpretation of the events.

I think Mario is the most likely person to negotiate a Plan B. He wants the team in Pittsburgh, and, I think he has realized, that if he sells the team to anyone, there's a very good chance that despite paying lip service to the contrary, they can enter a Plan B negotiations with no intention of actually staying in Pittsburgh. When talks break off, they'll move it to whatever location they originally had in mind.

But, I do believe that Mario is strongly considering moving. He's not excited about it, but, I suspect that there is a feeling that he can't protect the team forever. He's never wanted to be an owner, but, his loyalty to the team has always been high, and he's made the sacrifices to keep the team there. But, the second that he hands it off to someone else, that whoever that person is, will just turn around and try to move it anyways. With all that has gone on, I have to imagine that the cynicism is probably growing in Mario regarding potential owners.

For the record, and to get me back in the good books of Pittsburgh fans, who I'm spending a lot of time disagreeing with, despite having nothing but sympathy for in this situation, the scenario that I'd most like to see is Mario decide that he's okay being the primary owner of the team, negotiates a solid Plan B, and retains the team for the next 25 years, where he sells it to a certain young man who is looking to invest the millions of dollars that he's made in his hockey playing career in Pittsburgh.

I am pretty good at reading between the lines too, I have to do it in my career every day. There are several facts that lead me to believe that the NHL and the Pens are worth more in Pittsburgh, to the league and the Pens. Several I have been saying for some time and are actually put forth in that article I linked above.

The Pens are one of the strongest markets in the United States and have been for some time. Their local broadcasts are among the highest in the US, and ticket sales have been most years at least middle of the puck and north of 90%. It is a mature market that should guarentee the same, if not better as the team has sucked and will get better, for the forseeable future. It even sustained this growth through bad years that even strong markets have not as shown this year in several where there were down years. Tell me how good the chances of having a similar market in KC or Houston for decades or if ever? The difference in markets mean revenues from broadcasts, concessions, etc. would lower in those markets if (once actually, likely within a couple of years) the novelty wore off. How anyone could argue that the worth of a mature and historically extremely strong market is less than that of a huge unknown and historically failed markets is beyond me.

Bettman would not want to lose this television market either as it would hurt negotiations on a deal to lose your best market, which we have become this year.

The only factor in favor of a deal and inflating the value of the Pens to move is fear. Fear in KC of having a $400 mil. white elephant. Or having so much money you do not know what to do with it and wanting a home town toy like Basilli wants. But aside from this, even the deal where the Pens end up paying $87 mil. over 30 years (present day value of that is likely more like $40 mil) @ under $3 mil. per year is a no brainer better money maker in Pittsburgh than KC or Houston, if similar leases are offered in each place. If the State/County/City sweeten the deal further even better.

Is this really arguable?

 

[Artyukhin*]

The only factor in favor of a deal and inflating the value of the Pens to move is fear. Fear in KC of having a $400 mil. white elephant. Or having so much money you do not know what to do with it and wanting a home town toy like Basilli wants. But aside from this, even the deal where the Pens end up paying $87 mil. over 30 years (present day value of that is likely more like $40 mil) @ under $3 mil. per year is a no brainer better money maker in Pittsburgh than KC or Houston, if similar leases are offered in each place. If the State/County/City sweeten the deal further even better.

Is this really arguable?

What happens if another city offers a absolute FREE arena?
No cost and Mario has it in writting .

How far will the Pittsburgh gov't go?

 

[Egil]

I personally think the Deposit is a slam dunk for Balsille, but we shall see. The other part (and the potentially more costly part) is in much shadier areas. If I was buying a car, put a deposit down, and then had the conditions of sale changed at the last minute in a way that was unacpetable to me, I would bloody well expect my deposit back, and I would sue if it wasn't given back. I don't think Balsille is just going to walk away from his $10 mil.

 

[discostu]

Mario had nothing to do with the NHL's list of demands nor did he express any happiness regarding the deal falling through (quite the opposite actually). You are making these assumptions based on no evidence whatsoever.

So are you. You don't know if Mario had anything to do with the list of the NHL's demands. You're assuming he's not. I've actually not assumed that Lemieux or his ownership was involved in those restrictions, but, I do believe they were put in there by the NHL to further their goals.

I've been quite open that I'm making assumptions, based on what we've seen, because we're only getting part of the story.

And, I was incorrect when I said that Lemieux indicated that he was happy that the deal fell through. The comments were in the other direction, that he was upset, but, he closed the door on any further negotiations with Balsillie. Mario did not want Balsillie as the owner of the team without the restrictions that the NHL put in. If Mario wasn't on board with the NHL's actions when they put those restrictions in place, he wouldn't have made the comments that he did.

 

[jr99svt]

I think that the roller coaster is just starting..........

 

[Jaded-Fan]

What happens of another city offers a absolute FREE arena?
No cost and Mario has it in writting .

How far will the Pittsburgh gov't go?

First of all to clarify the free arena was offered to Pittsburgh, not the Pens. I know that you know this already, but it bears repeating as it is a common misconception

As to your question as to how far will PA/Allegheny County/Pittsburgh go? I hope that they can get closer. Is $2.9 mil. per year that far apart really when it comes to a state with a many times over billions budget? That said, my fear is that they will not go far enough. That said, as I said, Pittsburgh is in fact worth more as a hockey market than KC or Houston, much more than the difference of $2.9 mil. per year. They are the top rated local broadcast in the US. That is worth more than $2.9 mil alone in negotiating a local broadcast revenues. Not to mention concessions, etc. I think that either of those markets could easily become one where they struggle to get 10,000 to attend once the novelty wears off. There are examples otherwise, Dallas and Colorado for instance, and there is Crosby and Malkin (though that is no guarentee, how many come and see Ovechkin in Washington?), etc. But there are many more examples where non-traditional markets are struggling. Pittsburgh is a sure thing. It would be a shame if the powers that be let the Pens go.

 

[Artyukhin*]

Guys all Crosby has to do ,is say he doesnt want to play in KC
because he has Hallergy to those fans

Picture it

Allo Jerry Bettmen ? trade me right @$@#$ now!!!!!! to a team in Canada annnndd

This is how they just might stay in Pittsburgh
The power of Sid

 

[Whalerfan11]

Barry Melrose and EJ Radek were just on ESPNews about the Pens..

Interesting quotes.

"It's too difficult to do the sale with arena issues and have too many things going on so Mario took the team off the market. He doesn't want another deal to fall through and most likely he will still sell the team in the future once the future is more clear."--EJ Radek

"Pens have alot of leverage..the pressure is on the decision makers in Pennslyvania."

Kansas City, Vegas, and Hartford were mentioned as possible locations. Barry mentioned Winnepeg. Both agreed that KC has the best chance.

"There's got to be a plan to keep this team in Pittsburgh. Behind the scenes more has to be going on".

And just to clarify as a Whaler fan and a member of the Hartford Whalers Booster Club, I really hope the Penguins stay. If they don't of course I want the NHL in Hartford but if this team moves to KC it will make Pittsburgh a top candidate for future relocation or expansion and then Pitt and Hartford will be competing and I don't want that.

 

[discostu]

The only factor in favor of a deal and inflating the value of the Pens to move is fear. Fear in KC of having a $400 mil. white elephant. Or having so much money you do not know what to do with it and wanting a home town toy like Basilli wants. But aside from this, even the deal where the Pens end up paying $87 mil. over 30 years (present day value of that is likely more like $40 mil) @ under $3 mil. per year is a no brainer better money maker in Pittsburgh than KC or Houston, if similar leases are offered in each place. If the State/County/City sweeten the deal further even better.

Is this really arguable?

Your use of terminology is interesting. It's "fear" that makes other markets more valuable, but, not Pittsburgh. One could argue that the only reason why Pittsburgh will stay where it is, rather than go to the KW area, is that the government has a "fear" that they'll lose their team, and has agreed to partially fund an arena, with slot licence and as well as regular operating capital from the govermnet budget, while the KW market would be viable without any public assistance.

Fact is, there are successful business people involved here, who know how to put a value on an asset. Each one feels that the team is worth a certain amount of money to them, in very certain situations. All of them involve certain external factors (like government subsidies, desire to invest in a certain community, available arenas). Those will get taken into account when someone puts a value on that franchise. Balsillie put a value of $175M before. I suspect he would have paid more if he had free reign to move the team. I suspect that those willing to move a team to Kansas would probably pay more than that.

 

[Shelby-villains]

So are you. You don't know if Mario had anything to do with the list of the NHL's demands. You're assuming he's not. I've actually not assumed that Lemieux or his ownership was involved in those restrictions, but, I do believe they were put in there by the NHL to further their goals.

I've been quite open that I'm making assumptions, based on what we've seen, because we're only getting part of the story.

And, I was incorrect when I said that Lemieux indicated that he was happy that the deal fell through. The comments were in the other direction, that he was upset, but, he closed the door on any further negotiations with Balsillie. Mario did not want Balsillie as the owner of the team without the restrictions that the NHL put in. If Mario wasn't on board with the NHL's actions when they put those restrictions in place, he wouldn't have made the comments that he did.

In his press conference Lemiuex stated numerous times he did not have any knowledge about what was discussed between Balsille and the NHL BOG.

Lemieux's group was offended because the timing of Balsille's decision came at the worst possible time. Not because of any perception of Balsille moving the team.

If you don't believe Lemieux fine. But there is nothing out there that suggusts that the NHL and Lemiuex conspired against Balsille.