Penguins "to KC/staying in Pitt/not sold/whatever" thread

[Voda]

What makes sense is putting a team where it will make money. League officials (and anyone with half a brain) know that a team in Southern Ontario would be an instant hit, and have admitted as much.

the NHL is incented to bring NEW fans to the sport of hockey. not to bash your hopes of having hockey in waterloo, but for crying out loud there will be an NHL franchise in Houston, TEXAS before Waterloo. there is just too much market potential in Houston, which I believe is the 4th or 5th largest city in the sates in terms of population. sure it would take a decade to gain market traction but after that point the market would come around and turn into another Dallas... i'm sure people compalined about the minnesota move to dallas saying the same things, but look what happened.

 

[Voda]

Look at it this way - Buffalo plays the Canadian National Anthem at ALL Home Games - even if they're not playing a Canadian team.

Another team in Southern Ontario would thrive!

yeah and another NFL team in Pittsburgh, PA would thrive too. people wait 35 years on the season tickets list to get tickets to Steelers games!

the NFL is not for segmenting their own market share, they want NEW markets. That's why there are NFL games being played in Mexico City and Tokyo now. Same concept people. It's very rudimentary....

 

[19nazzy]

If this news is made public or brought to light, do you think it's finally enough for owners to turn on Bettman and kick his *** out of office?

Unless Bettman goes absolutely stupid, the owners will keep him in there for as long as he wants thanks to the CBA he got them.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

How 'bout a hug?

Hahaha, I'll take it.

 

[Steve L*]

Unless Bettman goes absolutely stupid,

I think we got past that point years ago.

 

[Vic Rattlehead*]

bro, the expos in their final year in montreal would have made the playoffs had it not been for the strike. furthermore, despite having a good team, you were drawing what, 5,000 people in attendance on average? that may even be a stretch...

stop with the expos/pens analogies. it's night and day in terms of market support.

What's the current main problem with the Pens? The arena fiasco.

Expos? Same thing. Attendence was low because the stadium was in the middle of nowhere. If it had the Bell Centre's location, Attendence would have been close to fivefold (using the number 5000-6000) just for that reason.

 

[Vanek At The Disco!]

golden triangle

The only "golden triangle" that matters when discussing the Penguins is the one at the intersection where the Monongahela and the Allegheny form the Ohio. I don't think anyone would say that Southern Ontario is an untenable market - geographic rights aside - but you can't make the argument that Pittsburgh is any less sufficient. This is a city that sold to 95% capacity during a season when the team placed 29th/30 in one of the worst arenas in the game, all while the Steelers won a Super Bowl.

Any pie-in-the-sky discussions of the team moving is tacitly disrespecting the fans of Pittsburgh. Enough.

 

[Hawker14]

the pens will stay in pittsburgh, the nhl has made that very clear with the BS conditions they tried to have balsillie agree to.

plan b may work, and pittsburgh IS a good market.

but i'd be surprised to see the pens sold for much more than $ 75 million.

lemieux and his ownership group are the biggest losers today.

 

[PuckNut]

the pens will stay in pittsburgh, the nhl has made that very clear with the BS conditions they tried to have balsillie agree to.

plan b may work, and pittsburgh IS a good market.

but i'd be surprised to see the pens sold for much more than $ 75 million.

lemieux and his ownership group are the biggest losers today.

That's pretty much my thought. Who would want to spend $125 million or higher knowing they will more than likely be on the hook for 50% of a new arena? If you look at it that way, that can easily bring the costs for buying the team into the $250-300 million range.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

Actually the proposed Plan B has the Pens on the hook for 21% or 4 mil a year.

And if the new owner was smart he would offer to buy the team for say 130 mil and then pay a lump sum upfront of 45 mil for the arena and never have to pay another cent.

 

[PuckNut]

Actually the proposed Plan B has the Pens on the hook for 21% or 4 mil a year.

And if the new owner was smart he would offer to buy the team for say 130 mil and then pay a lump sum upfront of 45 mil for the arena and never have to pay another cent.

Just a quick question, because I don't know much about the proposed Plan B. Does it take into account the interest that will need to be paid on the building of the arena? I mean, you have groups pledging $7.5 million per year for x number of years, but the full amount to pay is going to have to come from somewhere, be it a government bond or mortgage/loan type of deal. Or would it be some kind of interest free loan from the government?

 

[StevenintheATL]

I was a bit surprised that Harrah's didn't get the license, especially since Gary Loveman seemed to be in Randell's back pocket. While the Isle of Capri made a valiant effort (the arena funding deal was definitely something no one else would have even agreed to doing), they'll have other gaming opportunities to pursue (Especially if the Harrah's breakup rumors come true).

While it does make the Pens situation look a bit bleak, I see them staying in Pittsburgh for the near term. While a lame duck season in Pittsburgh is not ideal, it may come down to one if an arena deal is not reached within a reasonable amount of time. We all know that there are plenty of arenas in the US and Canada that would love to have an NHL team. If the Pens move (personally, I hope they don't, as prior to the NHL coming back to Atlanta, I was a Pens fan), it will be somewhere that the league thinks will be successful (and probably won't require paying off a franchise or two).

 

[GSC2k2*]

The several people who have posted inthis thread that Southern Ontario is a "guaranteed sellout" and would be an instant success clearly knows nothing about either the hockey marketplace in southern Ontario or any of the logistics.

Firstly, corporate money makes the sports world go around. The Leafs make a ton because they are the ticket (and sponsorship) of choice for corporate Canada. It starts and ends there. A great deal of that is because they are downtown and convenient. While I am sure they get a good buck from TV, I would seriously doubt it is a real difference-maker, and is far from eight digits per year.

Secondly, as for talking about a percentage of people in the GTA being 50 miles from a given location, the logistics demand that an arena be a lot closer than 50 miles. Do you want to know how many people would travel the 90 minutes or two hours from Toronto to KW? Hardly any, that's who. I told a story on this board a while back which illustrated how far these other communities are from Toronto in real terms. When the Canadian Open was held in Oakville or Markham, tickets were very difficult to come by. When it was held in Ancaster, just outside Hamilton and a heck of a lot closer than KW, they could not give them away for a vastly superior venue. Why? Because most people who go to those things - just like a ton of spectators at Leaf games - get their tickets comped to them by a business associate, and there are some things which are too far, even if you are getting them for free. I know no one who populates this board would have that mindset, since most of you live and breathe hockey, but that is the way it is.

 

[GKJ]

The Penguins will not move to Southern Ontario. Bettman screams and yells that the game needs the grow, and in his infinite wisdom, he wouldn't do that by putting more teams in Canada. Why do you think he looked the other way when Winnipeg moved?

 

[GSC2k2*]

The Penguins will not move to Southern Ontario. Bettman screams and yells that the game needs the grow, and in his infinite wisdom, he wouldn't do that by putting more teams in Canada. Why do you think he looked the other way when Winnipeg moved?

Because Winnipeg was a dismal market with no place to go?

 

[Egil]

The several people who have posted inthis thread that Southern Ontario is a "guaranteed sellout" and would be an instant success clearly knows nothing about either the hockey marketplace in southern Ontario or any of the logistics.

I think it would be a middle of the pack team in terms of revenue, similar to Edmonton, Calgary and Ottawa. It would not be the Leafs v 2.0.

Firstly, corporate money makes the sports world go around. The Leafs make a ton because they are the ticket (and sponsorship) of choice for corporate Canada. It starts and ends there. A great deal of that is because they are downtown and convenient.

Companies with HQ's in downtown TO would not be suitable for a K-W team. However, K-W has quite a few corporations including RIM, numerous insurance companies, and Toyota. Their are also alot of companies with HQ's in Mississauga and Hamilton, which would find it easier to get to K-W than downton TO (longer distance, much less traffic). That would be the corporate base that a K-W team would be using, not the downtown TO club.

While I am sure they get a good buck from TV, I would seriously doubt it is a real difference-maker, and is far from eight digits per year.

A K-W team would make at least 8 figures in TV rights due to the Toronto Market. The Leafs get upwards of 20 mil, and I bet a K-W would get at least half that amount. It is certainly a "difference maker", as that is an extra 7-8 mil over what a comparably sized city like Winnipeg could get.

Secondly, as for talking about a percentage of people in the GTA being 50 miles from a given location, the logistics demand that an arena be a lot closer than 50 miles. Do you want to know how many people would travel the 90 minutes or two hours from Toronto to KW? Hardly any, that's who.

Again, the target market would NOT be downtown Toronto, but Hamilton, Mississauga, London and K-W. All of those locations can more easily access K-W than Downtown Toronto. An arena located on the 401 in Cambridge would only be about 40 minutes from Pearson International Airport. Good luck getting from Pearson to the ACC in 40 minutes at 6:30 on a weeknight or Saturday night.

I told a story on this board a while back which illustrated how far these other communities are from Toronto in real terms. When the Canadian Open was held in Oakville or Markham, tickets were very difficult to come by. When it was held in Ancaster, just outside Hamilton and a heck of a lot closer than KW, they could not give them away for a vastly superior venue. Why? Because most people who go to those things - just like a ton of spectators at Leaf games - get their tickets comped to them by a business associate, and there are some things which are too far, even if you are getting them for free. I know no one who populates this board would have that mindset, since most of you live and breathe hockey, but that is the way it is.

The idea is not to get all the fans from Toronto. You will get some from Mississauga (which if it wern't for the territorial rights would be the most logical location), but you will get some. Toronto is basically a sweetner when it comes to TV revenues and corporate support moreso than the bread and butter of the team. It would take a bottom 5 market in terms of revenue and bring it to midpack.

 

[EbencoyE]

Look at it this way - Buffalo plays the Canadian National Anthem at ALL Home Games - even if they're not playing a Canadian team.

Another team in Southern Ontario would thrive!

Don't they play the Canadian anthem at all NHL games? Every NHL game I've been to they have - even when they're not playing Canadian teams.

Even minor leagues that don't have Canadian teams play the Canadian anthem before games.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

For those who have not been following it, a comparison of IOC and Majestic Star, admittedly biased, but still accurate as to my understanding from following this:

* IOC offered free arena
Barden offered to pay about 1/3

* IOC had a billion dollar development planned just like was done in the CBJ development
Barden pledged $350 mil. on 'community development' but will not say how it will be spent. Probably to stuff Bettis' fat face. In reality I doubt they actually spend a tenth of that, if so they would have shown plans, and none on anything that will generate tax dollars

* The Pens leave and thousands of restaurant, hotel, etc jobs are lost as 84 playing days are lost a year, not counting playoffs, which the Pens should be in annualy now that they are leaving.

* we still build an arena with no main tenant because we need it for other uses.

* The board said that the color of his skin was a deciding factor, and was intentionally quoted on the record as saying this

Please tell me how anything but the shade of black the guy is was better with his plan? Hell, he is already rich. Of all the minorities why is he chosen for a 'step up' that screws the entire city? The only benefit that I see at all of his plan is that the north side does have infrastructure already for Steeler and Pirate games, but would be further burdened by this and that would not outweigh the above.

 

[Hawker14]

The Penguins will not move to Southern Ontario. Bettman screams and yells that the game needs the grow, and in his infinite wisdom, he wouldn't do that by putting more teams in Canada. Why do you think he looked the other way when Winnipeg moved?

i love to beat up bettman and every opportunity, but not this time.

he actually tried to keep the jets in winnipeg. the problem was no ownership came up willing to commit to keeping the team in winnipeg.

bettman could've tried harder to pressure the government for a new rink when he became commissioner but he did try, nonetheless.

i can't speak about the nordiques situation, but bettman did nothing to prevent karmanos from moving the whalers. the board of governors are all to blame about the whalers.

every fan in hartford got screwed over.

 

[Hawker14]

Because Winnipeg was a dismal market with no place to go?

your bias, as always, is noted.

 

[V-2 Schneider]

Toronto could support the Pens, with the team based in Mississauga.It would create an exceptional rivalry in the GTA, and the thought of having Crosby and Malkin in hockey's richest market would be stunning.

However...if the pens do move, Houston gets my vote.

 

[GKJ]

Because Winnipeg was a dismal market with no place to go?

Well, I'm not fully aware of the situation, that was the impression that I got, but to scream and yell at Basille that there's no way he'd let them move Penguins or give the team back to the league and to now turn around an say "well, maybe they have to move" is pathetic and sad. I can see him pulling out the rug from Pittsburgh.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

i can't speak about the nordiques situation, but bettman did nothing to prevent karmanos from moving the whalers. the board of governors are all to blame about the whalers.

every fan in hartford got screwed over.

My recollection of the Hartford situation was that Karamanos wanted a new arena because the Civic Center was a pit and he couldn't make money with the terms of the lease, but the state flatly refused any consideration of a new arena until late in the game. He tried renegotiating the lease, but the city refused; he stated that he needed X number of season tickets to have a shot at breaking even, he got it once because of a last-second push and the following year they fell something like 2,000 short; he said moving the team was a possibility, the city all but walked him to the city limits.

Whether or not Karamanos was sincere in his efforts is a discussion for another thread - but I seem to recall that there were issues with the lease at the Civic Center and the city wasn't willing to negotiate down much from what they were already getting, and that pretty much sealed the deal.

 

[discostu]

The Penguins will not move to Southern Ontario. Bettman screams and yells that the game needs the grow, and in his infinite wisdom, he wouldn't do that by putting more teams in Canada. Why do you think he looked the other way when Winnipeg moved?

Rewarding the Canadian market, which has been a stable base that the NHL has needed to bounce back from a lock-out can also be a successful strategy for attaining long-term growth of the game.

The NHL has made it clear that it's primary objective is to keep the team in Pittsburgh, which is why Basille is currently out of the picture right now. The focus will be on that objective in the near future. If a suitable owner isn't found, then it's a new ball game. The team will move, and, at that point, IMHO, the NHL needs to get out of the way, and let the money talk. If the ownership group in Pittsburgh isn't going to see the team stay in Pittsburgh, they may as well maximize the return on a property that they've a rocky financial history with. If a guy like Basille thinks there is more market potential in KW (or elsewhere in Southern Ontario) than Jerry Bruckheimer thinks there is in Vegas, or someone else thinks there is in Kansas City, then, that will be the highest bid.

For those that are dismissing the Southern Ontario market as being a potential success, I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you think Basille is so high on it. He was willing to pay a pretty good price for a franchise, move it to a market where he'd have to build his arena himself, with very little chance of public assistance (and likely pay more property taxes than every U.S. franchise combined) as well as possibly having to pay terrotorrial rights. Yet, he seems pretty confident that he can make some money by having a team there, even with those expenses.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

Just a quick question, because I don't know much about the proposed Plan B. Does it take into account the interest that will need to be paid on the building of the arena? I mean, you have groups pledging $7.5 million per year for x number of years, but the full amount to pay is going to have to come from somewhere, be it a government bond or mortgage/loan type of deal. Or would it be some kind of interest free loan from the government?

No, the plan takes into account the interest.

7.5 mil for 30 years from PITG
7.0 mil for 30 years from PA gambling fund
4.0 mil for 30 years from Pens

Comes to around 570 mil for a 290 mil stadium.