Penguins "to KC/staying in Pitt/not sold/whatever" thread

skullman80

Registered User
Nov 18, 2005
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Pittsburgh, Pa
I'm just tired of this F'in roller coaster ride. It's been going on way too long, and I hate roller coasters.

I'm too tied up in this team emotionally, probably more than I should be. Hell I'm closing on a house next week, and all I can think about is will this hockey team be here after this year.

It sucks, It really *** sucks.
 

puck57

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Dec 21, 2004
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I'm just tired of this F'in roller coaster ride. It's been going on way too long, and I hate roller coasters.

I'm too tied up in this team emotionally, probably more than I should be. Hell I'm closing on a house next week, and all I can think about is will this hockey team be here after this year.

It sucks, It really *** sucks.

I would never say I have been a Pens fan, but I would indeed say this has been going on for WAY to long. Bob McKenzie thinks in the next month to 6 weeks, it will be pretty much known if the Pens will play in Pitts next year. I think it will be longer than that- probably by the end of the season is my guess.
 

puck57

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Dec 21, 2004
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No, the plan takes into account the interest.

7.5 mil for 30 years from PITG
7.0 mil for 30 years from PA gambling fund
4.0 mil for 30 years from Pens

Comes to around 570 mil for a 290 mil stadium.

There was talk of the clearing of the ground or starting construction for an arena in Jan.- will that still go on? Is the money for that from the local government? I did not realize that Plan B would take some money from the gambling fund and what is "PITG"?
 

Majik1987

I know kung fu...
Nov 27, 2005
4,185
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Northern Illinois
No, the plan takes into account the interest.

7.5 mil for 30 years from PITG
7.0 mil for 30 years from PA gambling fund
4.0 mil for 30 years from Pens

Comes to around 570 mil for a 290 mil stadium.

Its not all up front. It is over 30 years, so when you take into account the time value of money, the present value, it is only about $256 million in todays terms.

Think of the present value this way. It is the same thing as when you hear people say a dollar doesn't buy as much as it used to. Same concept. The $570 million over 30 years is only worth $256 million in today's terms.
 

Fish on The Sand

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Feb 28, 2002
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i love to beat up bettman and every opportunity, but not this time.

he actually tried to keep the jets in winnipeg. the problem was no ownership came up willing to commit to keeping the team in winnipeg.

bettman could've tried harder to pressure the government for a new rink when he became commissioner but he did try, nonetheless.

i can't speak about the nordiques situation, but bettman did nothing to prevent karmanos from moving the whalers. the board of governors are all to blame about the whalers.

every fan in hartford got screwed over.

another thing that these Bettman haters forget is this. If he was really out to screw canadian teams, Ottawa and Calgary would be somewhere else right now. He bent over backwards to keep those teams where they are.
 

Clarence Beeks

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May 4, 2006
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Can the city not re-sell the land recoup their investment? I don't think that the city owning a piece of land makes an arena a sure bet, that is an easily sold asset.

Not very likely in this case. Unless you know the specifics of that particular area of Pittsburgh, I wouldn't expect you to be able to understand why.
 

Clarence Beeks

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May 4, 2006
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Its not all up front. It is over 30 years, so when you take into account the time value of money, the present value, it is only about $256 million in todays terms.

Think of the present value this way. It is the same thing as when you hear people say a dollar doesn't buy as much as it used to. Same concept. The $570 million over 30 years is only worth $256 million in today's terms.

The better explanation is that the difference is the interest that the bank makes on the loan. Same as any loan.
 

Brent Burns Beard

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Feb 27, 2002
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another thing that these Bettman haters forget is this. If he was really out to screw canadian teams, Ottawa and Calgary would be somewhere else right now. He bent over backwards to keep those teams where they are.

huh?

Calgary is the second best hockey market on the planet. It would have no reason to move anywhere.
 

Maken*

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The several people who have posted inthis thread that Southern Ontario is a "guaranteed sellout" and would be an instant success clearly knows nothing about either the hockey marketplace in southern Ontario or any of the logistics.

Firstly, corporate money makes the sports world go around. The Leafs make a ton because they are the ticket (and sponsorship) of choice for corporate Canada. It starts and ends there. A great deal of that is because they are downtown and convenient. While I am sure they get a good buck from TV, I would seriously doubt it is a real difference-maker, and is far from eight digits per year.

Secondly, as for talking about a percentage of people in the GTA being 50 miles from a given location, the logistics demand that an arena be a lot closer than 50 miles. Do you want to know how many people would travel the 90 minutes or two hours from Toronto to KW? Hardly any, that's who. I told a story on this board a while back which illustrated how far these other communities are from Toronto in real terms. When the Canadian Open was held in Oakville or Markham, tickets were very difficult to come by. When it was held in Ancaster, just outside Hamilton and a heck of a lot closer than KW, they could not give them away for a vastly superior venue. Why? Because most people who go to those things - just like a ton of spectators at Leaf games - get their tickets comped to them by a business associate, and there are some things which are too far, even if you are getting them for free. I know no one who populates this board would have that mindset, since most of you live and breathe hockey, but that is the way it is.

Anyone who read this post is now dumber.
 

GSC2k2*

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Anyone who read this post is now dumber.
I can think of one reader of my original post for whom this statement is impossible.

There, now we're even.

That being said, can you pose a cogent argument to the contrary?

I didn't think so.

I realize you are from Kitchener, and that you might be defensive, but surely you realize in your heart that K-W is in no way a major league sports market.
 

jamiebez

Registered User
Apr 5, 2005
4,025
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Ottawa
Because Winnipeg was a dismal market with no place to go?
Actually, it was pretty much the exact same situation that Pittsburgh is in - outdated building with terrible lease that robbed them of pretty much all revenue except ticket sales.

In fairness to Bettman, he did exhaust all possibilities for finding a local ownership group first. He slapped a $15M fee on Shenkarow if he sold the team to a buyer intending to move it without giving local owners a chance to make a bid.

Ultimately, they left because the conditions imposed on the local ownership group were building a new arena, buying the team from Shenkarow AND funding the team for 2-3 years while the new rink was being built. Total price tag: about $250M Cdn. They came about $100M short by the time the deadline imposed on them by the NHL expired, so in the end the money just wasn't there.
 

Goalie_Bob

1992 Vezina (2nd)
Dec 30, 2005
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There was talk of the clearing of the ground or starting construction for an arena in Jan.- will that still go on? Is the money for that from the local government? I did not realize that Plan B would take some money from the gambling fund and what is "PITG"?

The land has been purchased and the local government is saying it will go ahead with clearing the ground, starting in Jan.

PITG is the Casino group that won the license.
 

PuckNut

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Oct 31, 2005
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Edmonton
The land has been purchased and the local government is saying it will go ahead with clearing the ground, starting in Jan.

PITG is the Casino group that won the license.

I really do hope that this is the case and Plan B goes through, but I'm skeptical. Mostly because I'm a cynic, but we've all heard for months now how IOC was going to get the license, and now that didn't happen. I don't think Plan B was well thought out. I read a quote from Lemieux saying that Plan B wasn't offered as an option until the deal with IOC was already agreed to, which suggests to me it was a half-hearted attempt to show support. I do hope that it goes through and that the Pens stay where they belong, but it's not what I'm expecting.
 

jamiebez

Registered User
Apr 5, 2005
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Ottawa
Just thought I'd chime in again to say I really, really hope in works out for you guys in Pittsburgh a lot better than it did for us in Winnipeg. The situations are pretty similar, and unfortunately I suspect you guys will have even more sharks circling the waters than we did.

I've been through exactly what you guys are going through, and its about the worst experience you can have as a sports fan. Even if you cheer for a perennial loser (as I did - Go Jets Go!) the old adage of "there's always next season" still applies. When you don't even have that anymore, it doesn't get any worse.

Good luck.
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
Well if Bettman is to be believed pens are going nowhere
According to the National Post Bettman and the NHL is singing a different tune after the slots loss:
"The decision by the Gaming commission was terrible news for the Penguins, their fans and the NHL," commissioner Gary Bettman said in a statement. "The future of this franchise in Pittsburgh is uncertain and the Penguins now will have to explore all other options, including possible relocation."
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=78006341-d8b8-4004-8e39-0cbe9b1a2be6&k=89682

Bettman should have been saying that all along instead of playing "Mr. Sunny" that all was right with the NHL world in Pittsburgh. As long as he was telling Pittsburgh and the politicians that the Pens were going nowhere, who cared whether the slots license was funding an arena.

Major strategic goof by Buttman - he must have been relying on advice from what is laughingly referred to as the "NHL Marketing Department".

This comes a couple of days after the NHL scuttled the Balsillie deal with a series of 24 conditions sprung on the potential owner at the last minute.:shakehead
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/...338bf-4285-49b5-b383-d9831115dcb6&k=89917&p=1

This fiasco alone should cost Buttman his job.
 
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Egil

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Mar 6, 2002
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Mario has now come out saying that relocation is possible. At this point, I don't see how Balisille isn't going to sue the NHL (for sure) and possibly the Penguins (who have his $10 mil deposit). Based on the Daly interview, I think that the NHL was afraid of Balsille moving the team to Canada, which they do not want to see under any circumstances. I don't see how this doesn't end up in court at this point, which will simply add to the ever growing mess. I'm no lawyer, but Al Davis pwned the NFL, and I suspect that Balsille would pwn the NHL.
 

ReLyT

Fantasy Canadian Hockey League Commissioner
Jul 28, 2005
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fantasysimhockey.com
Mario pulls Penguins OFF The Market

Fresh news from hockey central at noon on sportsnet...

Mario and the owners of the Penguins have pulled the team off the sale market and are seeking a move to another city on their own...

VERY interesting

(sorry if this needs to be in the other thread)
 

PuckNut

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Oct 31, 2005
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Edmonton
Mario has now come out saying that relocation is possible. At this point, I don't see how Balisille isn't going to sue the NHL (for sure) and possibly the Penguins (who have his $10 mil deposit). Based on the Daly interview, I think that the NHL was afraid of Balsille moving the team to Canada, which they do not want to see under any circumstances. I don't see how this doesn't end up in court at this point, which will simply add to the ever growing mess. I'm no lawyer, but Al Davis pwned the NFL, and I suspect that Balsille would pwn the NHL.

On top of that, no one is going to want to buy the team and end up in the middle of a law suit. Maybe Lemieux talking about moving the team is his way of getting back at the NHL for screwing up his sale.
 

ReLyT

Fantasy Canadian Hockey League Commissioner
Jul 28, 2005
4,535
657
London, Ontario
fantasysimhockey.com
Owner Mario Lemieux says the team is off the market and he will investigate relocating the Penguins outside Pennsylvania.

"It is time to take control of our own destiny," Lemieux said Thursday in a statement issued by the team.

Lemieux said he needs to take into consideration the long-term viability of the team and begin discussions with other cities that may be interested in an NHL franchise.

But he also said he'll continue to investigate an arena plan in Pittsburgh.



"As soon as we are no longer restricted by our agreement with Isle of Capri from negotiating an arena deal here, in the next few weeks, we will also begin discussions with local leaders about a viable Pittsburgh arena plan," he said.

The team's future in Pittsburgh is in doubt after the state Gaming Control Board denied Isle of Capri Casino a slots licence on Wednesday.

The licence was critical to the team's survival in Pittsburgh as Isle of Capri had promised to spend US$290 million to build the team an arena.

Lemieux's comments also come less than a week after a deal to sell the team to Canadian billionaire Jim Balsillie fell through.

Kansas City, Las Vegas, Houston, Portland and Winnipeg are among the cities hoping to lure an NHL team.

tsn.ca
 

Clarence Beeks

Registered User
May 4, 2006
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In the Deep South
Mario has now come out saying that relocation is possible. At this point, I don't see how Balisille isn't going to sue the NHL (for sure) and possibly the Penguins (who have his $10 mil deposit). Based on the Daly interview, I think that the NHL was afraid of Balsille moving the team to Canada, which they do not want to see under any circumstances. I don't see how this doesn't end up in court at this point, which will simply add to the ever growing mess. I'm no lawyer, but Al Davis pwned the NFL, and I suspect that Balsille would pwn the NHL.

I am, and you're wrong. No basis for comparison. Not even close to the same scenario. I can guarantee you that if Balsillie sues the NHL and/or the Penguins, he will lose on both suits. No basis for suit against the NHL, and Balsillie (not the Pens) broke off the preliminary negotiations, therefore the Penguins would be entitled to keep the deposit. As for the Al Davis comparison, Al Davis actually owned the team when he brought suit against the NFL. You can't sue to move a team that you don't own. The only party that might have a basis for suit against the NHL is the Lemieux Group.
 

discostu

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Mario has now come out saying that relocation is possible. At this point, I don't see how Balisille isn't going to sue the NHL (for sure) and possibly the Penguins (who have his $10 mil deposit). Based on the Daly interview, I think that the NHL was afraid of Balsille moving the team to Canada, which they do not want to see under any circumstances. I don't see how this doesn't end up in court at this point, which will simply add to the ever growing mess. I'm no lawyer, but Al Davis pwned the NFL, and I suspect that Balsille would pwn the NHL.

Agreed. The NHL's actions here are pretty puzzling. I'm guessing that they were very confident that the Isle of Capri were going to get the licence earlier on, which meant that where Basille would move the team would be a moot point. He wouldn't be able to walk away from a free arena. But, once it became clear that the chance of the IOC deal happening was diminishing, they suddenly didn't want to have an owner who would want to move the team to Canada, and then tried to sabotage the deal.

I'm really curious to see how this all shakes out.
 

Egil

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I am, and you're wrong. No basis for comparison. Not even close to the same scenario. I can guarantee you that if Balsillie sues the NHL and/or the Penguins, he will lose on both suits. No basis for suit against the NHL, and Balsillie (not the Pens) broke off the preliminary negotiations, therefore the Penguins would be entitled to keep the deposit. As for the Al Davis comparison, Al Davis actually owned the team when he brought suit against the NFL. You can't sue to move a team that you don't own. The only party that might have a basis for suit against the NHL is the Lemieux Group.


If the NHL imposed Conditions on Balsille that they won't impose on any other ownership group, that is the basis of a lawsuit. If the NHL negotiatied in bad faith with the last minute provisions, then Balsille is entitled to his deposit. You can't change the terms at the last second and keep the other guys money.
 

discostu

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I am, and you're wrong. No basis for comparison. Not even close to the same scenario. I can guarantee you that if Balsillie sues the NHL and/or the Penguins, he will lose on both suits. No basis for suit against the NHL, and Balsillie (not the Pens) broke off the preliminary negotiations, therefore the Penguins would be entitled to keep the deposit. As for the Al Davis comparison, Al Davis actually owned the team when he brought suit against the NFL. You can't sue to move a team that you don't own. The only party that might have a basis for suit against the NHL is the Lemieux Group.

For the NHL to change the terms of the deal (requiring a no-movement clause under any circumstances) after the deal had been agreed to in principle, and a deposit had been made sounds like it has the makings of a lawsuit to me.

It all depends on what really happened behind the scenes, and what was agreed to. Right now, there seems to be differing reports on whether the NHL was originally willing to let Basille move if he didn't get his arena. We're going off of interviews and comments to the media. I'm pretty certain that this will go to the courts, and, we'll likely have a much better picture of what happened after that.
 

discostu

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Wow,

The plot thickens.

I guess I can understands Lemieux's anger now from the Basille deal. Still, doesn't mean he is in the right. It sounds like he didn't to be involved in owning the team if it stayed in Pittsburgh, but didn't want to lose out on the franchise value if the team was going to move.

You can't have it both ways, IMO, and, I think it comes down to negotiating in bad faith.
 

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