TSN: Penguins acquire David Perron for 2015 1st round pick, Rob Klinkhammer

[DegenX]

Any video on that?

Not yet

 

[ProgOg]

Way to be on top of things Pittsburgh media.

He ditched them, though:

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Did anyone really win that trade though? Folks who were Caps fans during that era don't exactly have warm fuzzy feelings for Jagr.

Pens won that trade I feel.

If Jagr stuck around, this team would have been stuck in mediocrity and never truly rebuilt. Basically, no Malkin or Crosby. No third cup, etc.

Meanwhile, the Caps are still waiting to win their first cup and Jagr didn't exactly deliver.

 

[Jacob]

Sivek played half a season and Lupaschuk had a couple call-ups. I think there might have been a game where all 3 were in the lineup at the same time.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I actually thought Sivek showed the most promise out of all three. He just wasn't much interested in actually playing hockey, was the problem.

And obviously there is some hindsight in saying it was an awful return (and it was). But even at the time it was pretty well understood that those weren't even the Caps best prospects and they weren't exactly known to be a drafting powerhouse.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I actually thought Sivek showed the most promise out of all three. He just wasn't much interested in actually playing hockey, was the problem.

And obviously there is some hindsight in saying it was an awful return (and it was). But even at the time it was pretty well understood that those weren't even the Caps best prospects and they weren't exactly known to be a drafting powerhouse.

I could swear those three were three of their top four prospects at the time.

In terms of rank they were:

?
Beech
Sivek
Lupy

Just trying to recall who their top prospect was at the time. Was it Sutherby?

Edit: Here is a CBC article referring to them as "top prospects"

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/jagr-traded-to-capitals-1.288397

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

Top prospects from a pretty crappy draft year. Things turned out well is retrospect, but it was tough at the time. Especially seeing the return Yashin got. They needed cash in return though. The Kovalev trade was harder to accept. Lemieux was playing great that year and was then stuck playing with Lefebvre and Meloche afterwards. Plus we couldn't even pretend the "players" we got in return had any possible potential, with the exception of maybe Fata who we all hoped could suddenly develop some hockey sense.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Huh... looking back, I suppose I can't really pinpoint who would have been better-thought-of at the time, either. I just remember the commentary being that they didn't even get their best young players. Could have just been the general feeling of hopelessness surrounding the trade in general clouding my memory of it, I guess.

What they got in return was essentially the entire Capitals 1999 draft. I just remember how depressed I was the first few times watching Beech in the NHL. Then I got to be depressed all over again a couple of season later when they traded Kovalev and the best part of the deal was probably the longshot prospect of convincing Richard Lintner to convert to forward.

Like the poster above pointed out, the cash was the biggest part of the Jagr deal.

 

[Gooch]

People obsess over these picks and lose sight of the reason why you have the picks in the first place.

The first wasn't traded for a UFA or an older player. It was traded for a young, proven guy that has another year left and can likely be locked up long term.

It's unreal how some people can't see the big picture.

You mention the big picture yet you don't see the other aspect of team building which is the financial part. If you want to boil everything down to it's most minimal sense you want to have a team on paper that outperforms how much it costs. That will give you a competitive advantage over teams in the league who have to adhere to the same limitations via the salary cap.

You're talking merely of acquiring talent, which is an important part but it's also important to acquire that talent cheaply. That's the other end of the spectrum that too often gets overlooked. Tossing picks at things using the rationale that we're simply trading for the sure thing sounds all fine and dandy until you realize you're passing up on getting good to very good players playing at way below market value. While it's still possible to do that with undrafted free agents and later round picks as well as late bloomers it's just statistically more unlikely.

I don't have a problem with acquiring the winger, we desperately needed it. I just have a problem with what pile we decided to choose to spend from.

 

[wej20]

You mention the big picture yet you don't see the other aspect of team building which is the financial part. If you want to boil everything down to it's most minimal sense you want to have a team on paper that outperforms how much it costs. That will give you a competitive advantage over teams in the league who have to adhere to the same limitations via the salary cap.

You're talking merely of acquiring talent, which is an important part but it's also important to acquire that talent cheaply. That's the other end of the spectrum that too often gets overlooked. Tossing picks at things using the rationale that we're simply trading for the sure thing sounds all fine and dandy until you realize you're passing up on getting good to very good players playing at way below market value. While it's still possible to do that with undrafted free agents and later round picks as well as late bloomers it's just statistically more unlikely.

I don't have a problem with acquiring the winger, we desperately needed it. I just have a problem with what pile we decided to choose to spend from.

To acquire Perron there were two options IMO:

Option 1: 1st Rounder

Option 2: Sutter

Option 1 makes much more sense.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You mention the big picture yet you don't see the other aspect of team building which is the financial part. If you want to boil everything down to it's most minimal sense you want to have a team on paper that outperforms how much it costs. That will give you a competitive advantage over teams in the league who have to adhere to the same limitations via the salary cap.

You're talking merely of acquiring talent, which is an important part but it's also important to acquire that talent cheaply. That's the other end of the spectrum that too often gets overlooked. Tossing picks at things using the rationale that we're simply trading for the sure thing sounds all fine and dandy until you realize you're passing up on getting good to very good players playing at way below market value. While it's still possible to do that with undrafted free agents and later round picks as well as late bloomers it's just statistically more unlikely.

I don't have a problem with acquiring the winger, we desperately needed it. I just have a problem with what pile we decided to choose to spend from.

Nah, I see all aspects of it. I don't fixate on mystery picks that may or may not work out. First rounders are simply assets to be used as currency to acquire talent. Nothing more. I only have a problem with using that currency on rentals.

The development time of a typical late first round pick until they make an impact in the NHL is 4 years. That's four more years of Malkin and Crosby's career being wasted away. And that clock doesn't even start until this summer when the kid is drafted.

JR just acquired a fully developed winger that can have that kind of impact now.

They already have young blueliners on sweetheart deals that allow your org to put more money into their fwd corps. You also have two stars who took pay cuts to bring in talent to play with them. Try telling Crosby he has to wait another four years for their 2015 pick to help him out.

Not to mention an ever rising cap.

This deal was a no brainer.

Once again, big picture.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Huh... looking back, I suppose I can't really pinpoint who would have been better-thought-of at the time, either. I just remember the commentary being that they didn't even get their best young players. Could have just been the general feeling of hopelessness surrounding the trade in general clouding my memory of it, I guess.

What they got in return was essentially the entire Capitals 1999 draft. I just remember how depressed I was the first few times watching Beech in the NHL. Then I got to be depressed all over again a couple of season later when they traded Kovalev and the best part of the deal was probably the longshot prospect of convincing Richard Lintner to convert to forward.

Like the poster above pointed out, the cash was the biggest part of the Jagr deal.

I was excited because I wanted Jagr gone. He was a crybaby and I grew tired of it a couple of years before hand. That picture of him sitting on the top of the bench with his helmet on backwards while the rest of team practiced always pissed me off.

When I saw Beech play in the Baby Pens vs Big Pens game that summer, I wanted to cry as well. He skated like a total goober and I knew the Pens were screwed, but tried talking myself out of it. Besides, they had Kraft to save the day.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I was adamantly opposed to the team burning their first rounder, this year.

But I also didn't figure they had a shot at Perron for not much more than said first rounder. So I'm more than fine with it. Perron is going to be an excellent complement to this team's top six and is more or less exactly the kind of player I think nearly all of us wanted to see the team acquire. You don't get potential 30 goal scorers for a playoff rental like Martin, a guy with extremely limited value and ability to move in Scuderi or the varying levels of promising-but-unproven that is this team's deep well of young defensemen.

The team still has some time to potentially get back into the first round this year, anyway.

 

[Jacob]

I think they were 3 of Washington's top 5 prospects... but Beech wasn't their top prospect despite being a top-10 pick. I think Sutherby was at the time, considering he made the WJC team and Beech got cut (and then whined about it).

It was a money trade, not a hockey one. As was the Kovalev deal.

 

[Gurglesons]

Nah, I see all aspects of it. I don't fixate on mystery picks that may or may not work out. First rounders are simply assets to be used as currency to acquire talent. Nothing more. I only have a problem with using that currency on rentals.

The development time of a typical late first round pick until they make an impact in the NHL is 4 years. That's four more years of Malkin and Crosby's career being wasted away. And that clock doesn't even start until this summer when the kid is drafted.

JR just acquired a fully developed winger that can have that kind of impact now.

They already have young blueliners on sweetheart deals that allow your org to put more money into their fwd corps. You also have two stars who took pay cuts to bring in talent to play with them. Try telling Crosby he has to wait another four years for their 2015 pick to help him out.

Not to mention an ever rising cap.

This deal was a no brainer.

Once again, big picture.

Yeah, I don't see how anyone can think that we are going to be in cap issues. Even if we sign Ehrhoff for 5.5 + on term, there is no way in hell Despres is getting above 2 million on an RFA deal, especially if they sign him early. I bet you could give Maatta a bridge contract in the 3 - 4 million. Bridge our young guys until Scuds, Kunitz, and Dupuis are off the books and you've got tons of millions to play with.

The real issue with the cap is going to be Sutter's next contract.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

Just because our GM was horrible at finding ANY value in the draft doesn't mean there aren't great finds out there. From following the Pens over the years, it's safe to say you're conditioned to think that any non-top 15 pick is worthless. Not true at all.

Trading away your picks will always come back to haunt you eventually. Anyways, we're veering off-topic here..

If your logic was true, any remotely good team would trade their picks ever year for "proven" players. Guess what... they don't.

I can't believe I have to defend the premise that there are good finds in the draft from #21 onwards, but that's where I'm at.

Actually the Pens have done pretty decent with the late 1st picks they have had since Shero was GM. Despres, Bennett, and Maatta vs Esposito and Morrow which is 60% success rate. Also I consider it 80+% because he traded Espo the next season in the package to get Hossa and Duper. Which was well worth what we gave up. While Morrow only netted an older Morrow rental it still brought some value hence the + on the 80%. Morrow actually played well when he played with jokinen and dupuis averaging over a point a game for those 11 games. Then Blysma saw too much success with that line and put him back with Sutter who he had 0 points in his first 5 games with the team. B

While pointing out the decent success we have had recently with 1st round picks I still love this deal. This is not a 35+ rental. You get a 26 year old with at minimum 2 playoff runs and the opportunity for a cog for the next 6 to 7 years. Fits the style I love like many of our offseason pickups (hard to play against). This team was soft and now we are built like the teams that went to the Cup when Crosby and Malkin had chippy wingers. Perron for an asset that very likely would not benefit the team for 4-5 years if ever is a deal. Crosby and Malkin are in their primes and you make the best teams you can over the next 5 years while they are still in their primes. If that means you have a chance of some lean years and rebuild then sign me up. Plus our prospect pipeline has been pretty decent considering a team that has drafted low and gave up several picks for rentals. Go for it each year while you have the big guns to win. 1 Cup is worth 5 losing seasons without question. Plus with the Pens spending to the cap and still finding talented prospects late like Maatta, Despres, Bennett, Harrington, and others still developing it is looking okay to me on the prospect end of things. Since we have been doing this go for it now approach we added young prospects that have the best potential of any crop I have seen since the 80's. Enjoy!

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Jack Edwards going on about how much the Pens gave up for Perron and wondering how they're gonna fit him under the cap, lol. Ended by saying something along the lines of, "the Bruins were rumored to be in on Perron, but I don't know if they'd pay that price".

 

[Cherpak]

Jack Edwards going on about how much the Pens gave up for Perron and wondering how they're gonna fit him under the cap, lol. Ended by saying something along the lines of, "the Bruins were rumored to be in on Perron, but I don't know if they'd pay that price".

The way they have been headed this year their first will be more valuable.

 

[billybudd]

I actually thought Sivek showed the most promise out of all three. He just wasn't much interested in actually playing hockey, was the problem.

And obviously there is some hindsight in saying it was an awful return (and it was). But even at the time it was pretty well understood that those weren't even the Caps best prospects and they weren't exactly known to be a drafting powerhouse.

Trade was

To Wash
-Jagr

To Pitt
-$10 million


Those other guys were all projects. They weren't the key component in the deal. Pens were paying back debt for 100 cents on the dollar.

Straka was traded for $2 million. Kovalev for $5 million.

Anshakov, Fata, Beech, Lupaschuk (etc)...they were all just garnish in players for cash deals.

I think they were 3 of Washington's top 5 prospects... but Beech wasn't their top prospect despite being a top-10 pick. I think Sutherby was at the time, considering he made the WJC team and Beech got cut (and then whined about it).

It was a money trade, not a hockey one. As was the Kovalev deal.

For a guy who was compared to Ron Francis (hilariously, in retrospect), Beech sure did a lot of complaining. He was mad in 04(?) when guys like Malone and Kraft were getting more ice time with the big club. Felt his "seniority" should have counted for something.

 

[Jacob]

Jack Edwards going on about how much the Pens gave up for Perron and wondering how they're gonna fit him under the cap, lol. Ended by saying something along the lines of, "the Bruins were rumored to be in on Perron, but I don't know if they'd pay that price".

Jack Edwards is a literal crazy person.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

Wasn't it $5 million for Jagr and $4 million for Kovy? I don't remember any cash coming back for Straka, they just had to cut as much salary as possible.

 

[billybudd]

Wasn't it $5 million for Jagr and $4 million for Kovy? I don't remember any cash coming back for Straka, they just had to cut as much salary as possible.

Thought it was $10 million, but this is 15 years ago, so you might be right. I do recall that the NHL was involved in capping the amount of money at some figure.

I'm only about 60% on cash being involved in the Straka deal, but I think there might have been. Maybe it was Lang. I don't remember.

Edit:

Egads, Robert Lang was the NHL point leader at the the end of February one year?

 

[Nordekes]

Mackey had some whiny foot-stomping in his latest article about how Johnston somehow (God forbid) was unaware he had "media responsibilities."

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm not sure about the cash specifics, billy. But you're absolutely correct that those moves were money-oriented first and hockey-oriented FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR second.

Lang was frustrating, too. IIRC, the Penguins tried holding on to him too long even after the writing was on the wall and he ended up breaking his hand (I think it was his hand), which obviously completely derailed any plans on trading him that season. He ended up signing with Washington the next year and one of the two years he played for them even led the league in scoring for something like the first half of the season.

We talk about the team doing a questionable job wrangling their assets sometimes, these days. But man...

 

[eXile59]

Wasn't it $5 million for Jagr and $4 million for Kovy? I don't remember any cash coming back for Straka, they just had to cut as much salary as possible.

Yeah I feel like it was 4,999,999 because that was the max you could pay for a player at the time.