Post-Game Talk: Penguins 4, Islanders 3 (OT) - Riley Sheahan Beat a Goalie

[PensandCaps]

Do you mean 2 for the team, or 2 points for Sid himself? Because he only had the one assist I believe.

He got the secondary assist on Letang's goal.

 

[ColePens]

I honestly think the "play 60 minutes" thing is overblown. It just seems like something people say when the Penguins don't dominate a game start to finish, which pretty much no one does. Things happen, you lose leads, you have stretches where the other team is executing well. This is not a Penguin problem IMO. It seems like for some people playing 60 minutes means working over the other team for an entire night without fail, which pretty much doesn't happen, and if it does it's an aberration.

I disagree with this big time, but I think it's the verbiage you are using. I definitely agree the expectations should be shot down if they expect 60 minutes of dominance. That's not ice hockey and never has been. Agree with you there. If you are referring to the mental lapses for 60 minutes, I disagree. But I could be reading your post wrong.

My issue is mental focus for 60 minutes. When they lose their mental focus, they get bit by it. And they get bit hard. Here are a few examples:

- Guentzel stopped moving his feet, used his stick in an offensive zone forecheck at the end of his shift. He took a dumb penalty by losing that focus.

- Geno lost his mind on one shift and it caused a goal. He tried a cute chip pass to Jake when we were up 3-1 with 5:00 to play. Right there, that is a mental error. Lack of discipline. Then, he leaves the zone on a jam up the wall, we lose the battle, and they score. In a 3-1 game where the Isles have possession due to your turnover, you have to take d-side positioning on that play. It's a HUGE mental error.

- Sid's idiotic idea to not go to the bench for a stick or change. I've exhausted my words with this one. That is a huge mental error by a guy who rarely makes one.


So if these just happened, I'd say it's part of the game. No worries. It happens. It's happening every game for the Pens. Especially leaving the zone early when the circumstance isn't smart. Their focus dips and they pay. Immediately. I'm fine if the Isles push. They are a good young team. It happens. But the mental errors are a HUGE issue for the Pens. I mean huge. #1 issue this year. Those details are so important in a game. This team is not focused right now for those details.

 

[Shady Machine]

Dearth of scoring chances eh? Seems like I remember he had the potential GWG on his stick in OT. But I realize that's a pesky factoid

Weird I seem to remember him totally whiffing on it.

Sheahan is playing well and I’m happy to see him producing. My main point, although not to the same degree as unreal, is to suggest its likely not sustainable that he puts up 7 in 11 and still believe JR needs to bring in a 3C. Most agree with that here though so maybe I have nothing important to say haha

 

[Ogrezilla]

Weird I seem to remember him totally whiffing on it.

that was certainly not his best moment

 

[Empoleon8771]

7 in 11 isn't sustainable for Sheahan for sure, but at the same point, 1 in 10 before this 11 game stretch isn't sustainable, either. I think where he's at overall with Pittsburgh is a very good indication of his talent level, he's a minute eating 30 point 3C who is good defensively, can kill penalties and can eat massive Dzone minutes. Maybe he can get his goal scoring touch back and be closer to a 12 goal, 35 point player (which would put him at more or less equal to Bonino IMO), but I'm not exactly holding my breath on that. He hasn't been good at getting in positions to score goals and I don't see that as a trait that becomes better.

Sheahan has a really hard shot and it's very accurate, but it doesn't matter what goal scoring talents you have if you don't get in positions to score goals. He's not Ovechkin, who can score from anywhere on the ice. If he's not getting to the prime goal scoring areas, he just won't score goals.

 

[Nakawick]

Hunwick with the OT winner. #whateverittakes #whereisterrein

 

[Gurglesons]

To this discussion - Yohe was on Madden yesterday and mentioned Letang is being beat with speed and being beat 1 on 1, which is something we have not seen in the past. I definitely agree with Yohe. I'm seeing it, too. It's understandable to be a few steps slower with what he went through. But it's up to 58 to simplify his game, and he has not done that this year.

But as Jiggy said - he's probably one of the freakishly gifted athletes in the league. His recovery is insane. But his recovery is needed because he makes some really bad gaffes.

Like I previously pointed out, I wonder if the stick infractions are part of this issue.

He used to play a lot of D with his stick and now players are being penalized for having their sticks near their hands.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

JR basically said he isn’t comfortable with Sheahan’s scoring, so I’m sure he will bring in a third pivot he’s comfortable with.

All that said, Sheahan has been a good addition by JR and those whining about the trade will probably refuse to admit this.

Wilson is already on his third team and I can’t stop laughing about the posters who got angry about losing him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

JR basically said he isn’t comfortable with Sheahan’s scoring, so I’m sure he will bring in a third pivot he’s comfortable with.

All that said, Sheahan has been a good addition by JR and those whining about the trade will probably refuse to admit this.

Wilson is already on his third team and I can’t stop laughing about the posters who got angry about losing him.

He also said that before or early into Sheahan's recent run, though. You have to remember that, I think he made that statement after the Buffalo OT win on November 14th IIRC.

Actually, it was a couple days after that. It was on November 17th:

Jim Rutherford on Tristan Jarry, Patric Hornqvist and more

Sheahan has 5 points in 9 games since this article, he had 3 in 12 before. It also sounds like Rutherford was referring to the entire bottom-6 in this article, not just Sheahan.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

He also said that before or early into Sheahan's recent run, though. You have to remember that, I think he made that statement after the Buffalo OT win on November 14th IIRC.

He tends to make his biggest deals in December-January though, and I doubt there will be enough there to make him comfortable with Sheahan.

He’s been everything I felt he would be though, don’t know how anyone could be unhappy with the deal. Well those who didn’t makes asses of themselves after it went down I mean...

“Ohs nos Wilsooooon”

 

[Empoleon8771]

He tends to make his biggest deals in December-January though, and I doubt there will be enough there to make him comfortable with Sheahan.

He’s been everything I felt he would be though, don’t know how anyone could be unhappy with the deal. Well those who didn’t makes asses of themselves after it went down I mean...

“Ohs nos Wilsooooon”

Yeah, this is probably true with Rutherford. I was expecting him to make a winger move before a center move personally, because they know what they have in Hagelin and Sheahan probably needs more games to fully get the idea with him. I wouldn't be surprised for Rutherford to trade for a winger in the near future (within the next 2 weeks) and then reevaluate the 3C spot in the middle of January, where Sheahan will have like 35-40 games in the 3C spot in Pittsburgh.

 

[ncm7772]

He got the secondary assist on Letang's goal.

My apologies. Didn't see that Guentzel's goal was changed.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Sheahan has been boring and dependable, doing the little things that matter in the right ways. I am fine with boring and dependable.

We have too many 'exciting' players who make every trip out of their zone or into the offensive zone an adventure that I can do without.

 

[Night Shift]

Speaking of Wilson, anyone knows how he's doing?

 

[UnrealMachine]

Those aren't legitimate discussion points, though. It's an attempt to discredit a player that is playing well, that's really all it is. You're just bringing up stats without giving the actual numbers and saying "they probably support my opinion". It's completely baseless, it's not legitimate at all. It's literally someone who doesn't like Sheahan just making up ways to discredit Sheahan.

I actually did manage to find out how to get the stats you're talking about on naturalstattrick. Since November 14th (Sheahan's 1st point on this recent stretch), he has been on the ice for 70 shots for and 8 goals for at 5 on 5 play. That's a on ice shooting% of 11.4%, which is high but nothing ridiculous. Sheary and Guentzel were at over 10.5% last season for 40-60 games, what Sheahan has done over the last 11 games is high but it's nothing unreasonable. In terms of "scoring on 3 or 4 of every scoring chance", Sheahan has been on the ice for 24 high danger corsi for, while only having 4 high danger corsi goals, which is a high danger shooting% of 16.7%, that is again comparable to what Sheary and Guentzel did over a full season last year. Sheahan's PDO is actually 1011, when the average PDO is 1000. He has a low on ice save% to compensate for his high on ice shooting%. That is 9th on the Penguins. So basically, you're wrong and you just assumed you were right. Sheahan when on the ice is scoring higher than normal, but it's nothing that makes the argument of "he's been lucky" even remotely fair or logical.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

I appreciate you pointing me towards where to find the stats, but I disagree strongly with how you analyze/interpret the results.

1. You are correct in that PDO was not abnormally high, but that is because of his (unexpected to me) low on-ice sv%. Either way it was a poor metric choice on my part because I was mainly focusing on offensive production, which I'll get to on my next two points.

2. Sheahan's career on-ice sh% before this stretch of 11 games was 6.82% (1658 shots, 113 goals). Compared to this recent stretch of 11.43%, that's an increase of +67.7%. When your on-ice shooting % is that much higher than your career average, "lucky" would be an apt description. Comparing his 11-game stretch to two top-6 wingers who were among the league leaders in points/60 last season seems irrelevant since his own career numbers are readily available.

3. Sheahan's career high danger sh% before this stretch of 11 games was 9.62% (551 HDCF, 53 goals). Compared to this recent stretch of 16.67%, that's an increase of +73.3%. When your high danger shooting % is that much higher than your career average, lucky would be an apt description. I was obviously in hyperbole mode attributing a conversion rate of 60-80%.

4. His scoring chances/game before this stretch was 4.94. His scoring chances/game during this stretch are 5.18, an increase of 4.89%. So there were essentially no additional scoring chances being created relative to his career average. His scoring rate (GF/SCF) however increased by +85.3% over his career average during this 11-game stretch.

5. In summary, the number of scoring chances/game is relatively unchanged, but his on-ice shooting % is +67.7% higher than his career average, coupled with a high danger shooting % that is +73.3% over his career average. Your argument now appears to be that since other players not named Sheahan have obtained those numbers, they are not unreasonable for a player of his magnitude? I disagree.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Here's the problem with your analysis: 11.4% over a small sample size is completely reasonable and you're trying to paint it as unreasonable. That's the issue here, you're trying to act like Sheahan was on some absolutely unsustainable run that was impossible for anyone to replicate, therefore he was lucky. That's just not the case, his on ice shooting% is high (like I said), but it's not nearly high enough where your claims of "he's getting lucky" are at all valid.

No one thinks he's a 50 point player or whatever his current pace is. However, he has played extremely well recently, and you trying to dismiss that by saying "he has been lucky" is insanely biased. It's just someone who didn't like the trade at first trying to find any way to dismiss Sheahan actually playing well, that's literally all it is.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Bonino at the end of 2015-2016 had a 12.21 on ice shooting% and had a high danger shooting% of 21.7% in the games that Malkin was injured for. Was that just Bonino "getting lucky" or was he playing legitimately well when he had 16 points in 15 games to end the 2015-2016 season?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Speaking of Wilson, anyone knows how he's doing?

Scott Wilson has...

0 points on the season, which averages out to approximately 0.0 ppg.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Sheahan is not a problem. Never was. Carl Hagelin is the problem. If we upgrade that spot in the forward ranks, most of our depth issues are resolved. We need to sacrifice a PKer to upgrade that spot in the lineup. And, not to beat a dead horse, but Alex Galchenyuk still makes too much sense for us. You bring in a 'winger' with his offensive ability, then you can probably get by with Sheahan as No. 3 center. I would still like to upgrade from Rowney, but that's a different issue.

A guy like Galchenyuk also gives you the option to play him at center and drop Sheahan to the fourth line, OR replace Guentzel in the top six and give Guentzel the opportunity to play center. All three of those options are better than our current lineup with the Swedish stone hands. AND, if we chose to play one of Guentzel or Galchenyuk as the third-line center, moving Sheahan down to the fourth line, we could have room to recall a Sprong or Aston-Reese to replace Hagelin in the top 9. Or even to give the fourth line a spark. Lots of options.

Now, all we need to do is convince Bergevin that dealing Galchenyuk for Hagelin and Cole is something he wants to do.

 

[ColePens]

Sheahan has been boring and dependable, doing the little things that matter in the right ways. I am fine with boring and dependable.

We have too many 'exciting' players who make every trip out of their zone or into the offensive zone an adventure that I can do without.

I agree with your assessment on Sheahan. I disagree with you on too many exciting players. We have too many guys in our bottom 6 who are specialist who are average at their specialty and cannot add offense. This team is built on 4 lines of offense. That's why nobody could beat us in a best of 7. Now we have..

Reaves - fighter/enforcer - no offense
Kuhn - PK/shot blocker - no offense
Rowney - grinder - no offense
McKegg - grinder/pk - no offense
Archi - energy guy - offense to be determined on 4th line (Sully doesn't play him)
Hags - energy guy at this point - no offense

I'm fine with one of reaves/kuhn/rowney/mckegg/archi. I am not okay with all of them. Especially if we are using a 3rd line center pivot who plays a solid boring defensive game.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I disagree with this big time, but I think it's the verbiage you are using. I definitely agree the expectations should be shot down if they expect 60 minutes of dominance. That's not ice hockey and never has been. Agree with you there. If you are referring to the mental lapses for 60 minutes, I disagree. But I could be reading your post wrong.

My issue is mental focus for 60 minutes. When they lose their mental focus, they get bit by it. And they get bit hard. Here are a few examples:

- Guentzel stopped moving his feet, used his stick in an offensive zone forecheck at the end of his shift. He took a dumb penalty by losing that focus.

- Geno lost his mind on one shift and it caused a goal. He tried a cute chip pass to Jake when we were up 3-1 with 5:00 to play. Right there, that is a mental error. Lack of discipline. Then, he leaves the zone on a jam up the wall, we lose the battle, and they score. In a 3-1 game where the Isles have possession due to your turnover, you have to take d-side positioning on that play. It's a HUGE mental error.

- Sid's idiotic idea to not go to the bench for a stick or change. I've exhausted my words with this one. That is a huge mental error by a guy who rarely makes one.


So if these just happened, I'd say it's part of the game. No worries. It happens. It's happening every game for the Pens. Especially leaving the zone early when the circumstance isn't smart. Their focus dips and they pay. Immediately. I'm fine if the Isles push. They are a good young team. It happens. But the mental errors are a HUGE issue for the Pens. I mean huge. #1 issue this year. Those details are so important in a game. This team is not focused right now for those details.

It's quite possible it's a larger issue for this team. I just think listing things like that is usually tantamount to "things that might happen when a team gives up a goal" that hockey teams and players are just not going to not do throughout the course of the vast majority of games. I'm in agreement those things happen, I just don't think they're unusual or unique. I think you can watch just about any game played this year, watch the 30 seconds leading up to every goal scored, and critique what happened.

I definitely see the point about Sid, but he made a snap decision and botched it. What can you really do? Where do you draw the line with cute plays with Geno? I dunno. Guentzel I would hope they're still working with since it doesn't seem a secret he could round out his game aside from the scoring side of things.

Mistakes will happen and risks will sometimes not pan out in the moment. Regardless though, I think citing mental errors and positing that they're more rampant on this team is different than the idea of playing 60 minutes, so like you said we might be talking about slightly different things.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

JR basically said he isn’t comfortable with Sheahan’s scoring, so I’m sure he will bring in a third pivot he’s comfortable with.

All that said, Sheahan has been a good addition by JR and those whining about the trade will probably refuse to admit this.

Wilson is already on his third team and I can’t stop laughing about the posters who got angry about losing him.

If anyone is still complaining about the Sheahan acquisition at this point, they're doing so out of stubborn refusal to admit they were wrong about the player, and not because of how Sheahan is actually playing.

 

[LiquorLicense]

Well thought out post.

It was sarcasm.

 

[ColePens]

I agree UB that mistakes will happen. D-men will get beat. Forwards will gamble on plays at times. That is hockey 101. But from years and years of playing and studying the game - there is a difference between mental lapses and common mistakes that happen every game. While "JUST PLAY 60 MINUTES" is thrown around too much, the team at least needs to focus for 60 minutes. Teams will beat them. It happens. But the attention to details issue has been a problem all year. Far more than any other year I can remember. If accountability was a major issue under the DB years, and it sure was, lack of focus after 2 Cups is hurting us this year.

But this team has been anything but unfocused with Sully. So I am hoping it's a hangover and will eventually stop.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

If anyone is still complaining about the Sheahan acquisition at this point, they're doing so out of stubborn refusal to admit they were wrong about the player, and not because of how Sheahan is actually playing.

Bah golly, that would never happen round these here parts...

Ah, ah, ahpouliot!

Damn weather, can’t shake this cold, keeps hanging around like Kuhn.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

This team might not be completely focused until the last month of the regular season, or even later. The cost of back-to-back Cups.

I still would take this team over any other in a seven-game series. Maybe it's the Ric Flair in me, but to be the man you have to beat the man. And I still think Murray in a seven-game series gives us an edge over everybody else.

Nothing I have seen so far this regular season makes me doubt this team when it's crunch time.

That all said, I am curious to see how we perform against Toronto...albeit with our backup goalie. I think Toronto is a test. They are what we were before we started winning.